Put the freight on to the rails

[JohnB57]

While not exactly independent commentators there has been some research to show that HGVs are heavily subsidised given the damage they cause to the road network etc eg "New research: Britain’s lorries receiving £5bn annual subsidy" http://www.bettertransport.org.uk/new-research-britain’s-lorries-receiving-£5bn-annual-subsidy

If you decide on the conclusion you want before gathering evidence, it's possible to "prove" just about anything.

If we taxed HGVs to cover all of their costs directly, we would stifle or even kill trade and do massive damage to the economy - that's why no government has ever so much as hinted at taking that course of action. Every single item distributed by road or rail collects revenue throughout its manufacturing, supply and retail life in many ways additional to direct transport charges. And we all benefit through evening out, so far as possible, the costs of getting goods to market.

I'm not sure what reports like the one quoted are trying to prove or change. I just seems to me, as someone else said earlier, to be academic spherical objects.

 

[edwin_m]

Do you want to stop and think about what you've just said?

Do you think hauliers run trucks up and down the country just for the pure fun of it?

I've considered it and I stand by it.

In a competitive business haulers will do whatever they can (let's assume they stay within the law) to carry their goods from A to B at least cost to themselves. That isn't necessarily the same thing as least cost to society, because some costs aren't seen by the haulier and are paid by others. The costs relevant to this discussion are the costs to others of congestion and road maintenance due to running the same vehicles for longer distances or over less suitable roads.

I agree fuel prices and taxes in particular incentivise hauliers to minimise mileage, but without detailed research who's to say that mileage wouldn't reduce further if they also had to pay a road user charge? I don't think responding that it is c**p and bo77ocks really answers that question.

The increased cost of mileage would be factored into the equation and could result in alternative operating methods. For example it might make a larger number of smaller depots more economical than hub-and-spoke or even favour more trunk hauls by rail. I don't claim to know what might happen as I'll leave that to the clever people in the industry, but I do believe that the best solutions arise when people have to consider the widest consequences of their actions. If nothing much changes then the industry is already working close to optimum and nothing would have been lost.

If correctly designed a road user charge could also level the playing field between British and foreign hauliers, who pay vehicle taxes to their own countries and have more opportunity to refuel across the Channel so contribute little to the costs of the UK road network.

I would also say again that if the road maintenance and enhancements need doing then someone has to pay for them. The cost doesn't simply disappear simply because it is funded from general taxation rather than road user charges!
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If we taxed HGVs to cover all of their costs directly, we would stifle or even kill trade and do massive damage to the economy - that's why no government has ever so much as hinted at taking that course of action. Every single item distributed by road or rail collects revenue throughout its manufacturing, supply and retail life in many ways additional to direct transport charges. And we all benefit through evening out, so far as possible, the costs of getting goods to market.

I'm not sure what reports like the one quoted are trying to prove or change. I just seems to me, as someone else said earlier, to be academic spherical objects.

Whereas you are making assertions with no justification whatever. What logical argument, or even better evidence, do you have for these views?

 

[Class 170101]

Good luck trying to find paths on parts of the railway for all this extra freight you want to shift from road to rail as well.

GEML, NLL, WCML, ECML, GOB and the Cross Country freight route are busy already. It was bad enough losing Ely Bridge around 4 years ago now for a period of 6 months, trying to push all the freight via the GEML.

 

[Johnnie2Sheds]

It has taken about 100 years to set up the present distribution system, whereby freight has been lost/removed for political and economic reasons from the railways. The way we do everything is now centred on road transport. It therefore follows that if we start now we could bet back to a railway freight distribution system in the year 2115. Good luck with that.

The first thing to do please is demolish the hideous British Museum and replace it with a new St Pancras goods.

 

[al78]

What percentage of traffic on the roads comprises of HGVs, and thus if it were theoretically possible to move all freight from road to rail, how much difference to congestion would it make?

 

[HSTEd]

The Pennines aren't the English Channel. There are ways over and round them. What possible benefit would there be in building rail tunnels through the Pennines with a loading gauge greater than the rest of the country?

So eventually, through piecing together of new infrastructure, we will end up with a more suitable loading gauge on useable routes.

Making the TBM larger does not really increase the price of the tunnel much.

 

[w0033944]

It has taken about 100 years to set up the present distribution system, whereby freight has been lost/removed for political and economic reasons from the railways. The way we do everything is now centred on road transport. It therefore follows that if we start now we could bet back to a railway freight distribution system in the year 2115. Good luck with that.

The first thing to do please is demolish the hideous British Museum and replace it with a new St Pancras goods.

I'd argue that the switch took place between 1919/1920, when demobbed WWI veterans were able to buy ex-WD vehicles and setting-up in road haulage, and, for argument's sake, 1970, by which time the Type 1 Modernisation Plan locos such as the class 15s were running-out of trip freight workings, and the hump yards like Whitemoor were dwindling in usage. It was also, hardly coincidentally, the era of rapid expansion of the motorway network. On that basis, I'd suggest your 100 years could be condensed to a mere half of that length of time.

 

[HowardGWR]

The first thing to do please is demolish the hideous British Museum and replace it with a new St Pancras goods.

You mean the British (National) Library don't you? (I hope so anyway!)

 

[Chris125]

The first thing to do please is demolish the hideous British Museum and replace it with a new St Pancras goods.

I think you mean the British Library?

Chris

 

[edwin_m]

Unfortunately you'd have to demolish this too:

http://www.crick.ac.uk/the-institute/location/map/

 

[GearJammer]

What percentage of traffic on the roads comprises of HGVs, and thus if it were theoretically possible to move all freight from road to rail, how much difference to congestion would it make?

It would make absolutely sod all difference!

All the cars would be sat in exactly the same jams..... they'd just be sat there looking for somebody else to blame...... maybe buses, or tractors, or vans, or cyclists.... anyone but themselves! :roll:

 

[matacaster]

One of the bigger reasons why rail freight lost out is that companies always tryu to do things as cheaply as possible.

Years ago, even very large manufacturing companies had plants and depots located all over the country, often served by internal road fleets or rail. This was partly through acquisitions, but they tend to keep them open - why, well because it was cheaper than moving stuff around the country in small, underpowered lorries.

Today, large companies have NONE (as they just import stuff from China), one or two manufacturing plants in this country. This is because the economics of having an (admittedly fairly expensive) fleet of lorries is but A FRACTION of the cost of maintaining separate plants, managements and workforce in many diverse locations.

Many of the costs incurred by a company are actually set by Government. So, minimum wage, fuel, planning laws etc, the company accountants just work out the costs, taxation benefits, pension costs etc. To cut costs, they reduce workforce, close premises and subcontract haulage, rather than do it in house. When you have one factory (or port of entry) and destinations all over the country (like B&Q for instance) unless there are several stores close by, rail is not much good (except for from a regional distribution point). B&Q also might have built on a few rail yards // rant on [and their goods are cheap chinese crap at very expensive prices] //rant off

 

[Donny Dave]

What percentage of traffic on the roads comprises of HGVs, and thus if it were theoretically possible to move all freight from road to rail, how much difference to congestion would it make?

If anything, it would make congestion even worse! For the vast majority of frieght to get back onto the railways, you would need to build sidings and yards at every city, town and village that's currently on the railway network. Trouble is, with all the trip working (with some trains stopping at every town and village on it's route), shunting and marshalling of the trains, there would be no room for passenger trains. So you've got all these extra people fighting for the same limited space on the roads ....

PS, you would still need large fleets of lorries and vans to take the various goods from the sidings and yards to their destination, and vice versa, so nothing would change in that respect either.

 

[RichmondCommu]

But are there options for moving road freight on to the rails?

In Munich BMW transport a lot of cars by rail, quite often using freight trains which contain other items which aren't in any way related to BMW. Over here Bentley build their cars in a factory right next to a railway line in Crewe and one place they display/sell them is in a showroom next to a railway line in Knutsford, yet they send numerous lorries every day between Crewe and Knutsford.

But how could a FOC possibly hope to make a profit transferring finished cars between Crewe and Knutsford?
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Good luck trying to find paths on parts of the railway for all this extra freight you want to shift from road to rail as well.

GEML, NLL, WCML, ECML, GOB and the Cross Country freight route are busy already. It was bad enough losing Ely Bridge around 4 years ago now for a period of 6 months, trying to push all the freight via the GEML.

However that is not and indeed should never be an excuse. There is no reason why we cannot install additional loops or re-open closed ones. And in the case of the MML south of Kettering reinstate freight / slow lines.

 

[edwin_m]

But how could a FOC possibly hope to make a profit transferring finished cars between Crewe and Knutsford?

And how long would it take to sell a trainload of Bentleys in Knutsford? I know it's footballer belt, but really?

 

[RichmondCommu]

You mean the British (National) Library don't you? (I hope so anyway!)

I'm guessing here that our Johnnie doesn't visit London that often!
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And how long would it take to sell a trainload of Bentleys in Knutsford? I know it's footballer belt, but really?

Well exactly! Our best hope are initiatives to move more cars that arrive through ports and Toyota and Nissan exports.

 

[northwichcat]

But how could a FOC possibly hope to make a profit transferring finished cars between Crewe and Knutsford?

There's other companies based by Bentley in both Crewe and Knutsford. Like in said in Germany BMW transport cars by rail on trains which transport other freight which isn't related to BMW. Why couldn't the same work in Britain? For instance, one company based near Bentley in Knutsford is Oliver Valves: http://www.valves.co.uk/about-us/company-profile They might be able to transport freight by rail.
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And how long would it take to sell a trainload of Bentleys in Knutsford? I know it's footballer belt, but really?

Cars are also dropped of at Knutsford for servicing and transported back to Crewe to be serviced and then back to Knutsford to be picked up again. There's around 4 lorries per day which load/off-load cars at Bentley, Knutsford and they park badly on the road each time rather than pulling on to the Bentley site to load/off-load the cars.

 

[Ash Bridge]

What are people's thoughts on using MPV units (as used on RHTT duties) but fitted with flat cargo decks for short distance freight workings?

 

[swt_passenger]

What are people's thoughts on using MPV units (as used on RHTT duties) but fitted with flat cargo decks for short distance freight workings?

Been trialled within the last ten years, not considered cost effective on the relevant short distance flows. Timber somewhere wasn't it?

 

[Ash Bridge]

Been trialled within the last ten years, not considered cost effective on the relevant short distance flows. Timber somewhere wasn't it?

I do recall when they were introduced it was mentioned about trialling them on light freight work, but could not remember if it took place or not.

 

[edwin_m]

Cars are also dropped of at Knutsford for servicing and transported back to Crewe to be serviced and then back to Knutsford to be picked up again. There's around 4 lorries per day which load/off-load cars at Bentley, Knutsford and they park badly on the road each time rather than pulling on to the Bentley site to load/off-load the cars.

4 lorries per day would be about a train every fortnight.

 

[northwichcat]

4 lorries per day would be about a train every fortnight.

How many times do I need to make the point that in Germany BMW put relatively small numbers of cars on freight trains alongside non-BMW related freight? No-one's answered why we can't do that in Britain but everyone's going on about me talking about a relatively small number of cars not making the freight worthwhile.

 

[Ash Bridge]

How many times do I need to make the point that in Germany BMW put relatively small numbers of cars on freight trains alongside non-BMW related freight? No-one's answered why we can't do that in Britain but everyone's going on about me talking about a relatively small number of cars not making the freight worthwhile.

Hence the suitably converted MPV suggestion.

 

[21C101]

People might not be too happy either if intercity services were reduced to 1950s levels to make space for freight returning to 1950s levels.....

 

[edwin_m]

How many times do I need to make the point that in Germany BMW put relatively small numbers of cars on freight trains alongside non-BMW related freight? No-one's answered why we can't do that in Britain but everyone's going on about me talking about a relatively small number of cars not making the freight worthwhile.

But how much other freight is there between Crewe and Knutsford that could wait for whenever the train runs and be co-ordinated with it? And be going between the same parts of Crewe and Knutsford so road transfer wasn't needed at one end or other, otherwise it would be far less hassle just to let the road vehicle drive the short distance between these places?

I might agree with you if you were suggesting Crewe to Aberdeen.

 

[6Gman]

How many times do I need to make the point that in Germany BMW put relatively small numbers of cars on freight trains alongside non-BMW related freight? No-one's answered why we can't do that in Britain but everyone's going on about me talking about a relatively small number of cars not making the freight worthwhile.

It's called wagonload freight and - apart from some specialist examples such as the Ministry of Defence work - it is almost impossible to operate economically, never mind profitably!

To take your specific example there is no rail connection to the Bentley works at Crewe so you've either got the huge capital expense of installing it, or moving the cars to a loading point elsewhere in the town. And there are no sidings at Knutsford so the traffic could not be unloaded.

Even in the "good old days" it would have been a clumsy move.

Tripped from Bentley Works (had it ever been rail-connected) to Basford Hall.
Shunted onto a Basford Hall - Stockport area (?) location train.
Reshunted onto a Stockport area to Chester train, which would then call at Knutsford to detach.

Or put it on a lorry.

 

[northwichcat]

And there are no sidings at Knutsford so the traffic could not be unloaded.

Or look at the bigger picture.

You could argue there is enough rail demand in Knutsford for a second station and two of the main areas of employment are quite a distance from the existing station. The other side of the railway line from Knutsford Business Park there's development space, so not only space to put in a new station but new sidings as well. Like I already mentioned there are some large companies on the nearby Parkgate Industrial Estate such as Oliver Valves and Middlewich Food Trays who may be able to transport goods by freight. There's even a Royal Mail sorting office there, of course post can't be transported by rail can it? :roll:

it is almost impossible to operate economically, never mind profitably!

So are you suggesting that in Europe companies such as BMW must get huge subsides off the government? Even Siemens use wagonload freight so could one of the biggest conglomerates in Europe be getting subsided by the German government?

I know huge subsidies are paid by EU governments for railways - see Spain modern high quality stock everywhere and very cheap fares. However, that's for passenger rail not for freight and would paying subsides to companies to use freight trains not breach EU legislation?

Even in the "good old days" it would have been a clumsy move.

Tripped from Bentley Works (had it ever been rail-connected) to Basford Hall.
Shunted onto a Basford Hall - Stockport area (?) location train.
Reshunted onto a Stockport area to Chester train, which would then call at Knutsford to detach.

Or put it on a lorry.

In the 'good old days' the Bentley showroom was in Stretford not Knutsford so wouldn't have been relevant.

 

[Bald Rick]

So are you suggesting that in Europe companies such as BMW must get huge subsides off the government? Even Siemens use wagonload freight so could one of the biggest conglomerates in Europe be getting subsided by the German government?

Yes, precisely. In the same way that freight companies here get subsidies in the form of marginal costing track access charges, and grants for siding connections.

 

[Donny Dave]

You could argue there is enough rail demand in Knutsford for a second station and two of the main areas of employment are quite a distance from the existing station. The other side of the railway line from Knutsford Business Park there's development space, so not only space to put in a new station but new sidings as well. Like I already mentioned there are some large companies on the nearby Parkgate Industrial Estate such as Oliver Valves and Middlewich Food Trays who may be able to transport goods by freight. There's even a Royal Mail sorting office there, of course post can't be transported by rail can it? :roll:

Look at the bigger picture yourself ....

It all depends on what these companies produce and where it goes! I'll start with Royal Mail. The sorting/delivery office (I'm assuming it's very similar to the one we have here in Scunthorpe) will probably have everything pre-sorted ready for the posties to deliver on their rounds, probably coming from Warrington.

I can't find a website for Middlewich Food Trays, so I'll be making assumptions here. From what I can see from various reviews on the net, it's a low cost but high volume producer of plastic products, which is ideal for local or semi-regional distribution. Ie you may have a pallet's worth of stock for Bolton, Manchester, Stockport, Crewe, Macclesfield and Chester everyday. Can you imaging what the costs of building and maintaining a rail loading facility will do to this company, not to mention the cost of hiring part of a train (or several, if shunting is required) for a journey of a maximum of 50 miles?

Oliver Valves is the opposite (judging by their website) in that it is low volume, but high cost products being produced. Depending on where the finished product is going, it may be viable to send by rail, but you still have the time and cost of getting it to the nearest railhead for distribution, plus the cost of hiring part of a train that's going in the right direction. If everything goes on 1 pallet, for shipment to Sweden or Norway (for example) then it will be far cheaper to contact 1 of the shipping firms in Immingham or Newcastle (for Port of Tyne) and get them to collect it on a van that's in the area to take back (this is the sort of work I used to do about 6 years ago (the going rate then was £40 per pallet or part load, depending on the vehilce used)).

I'm in agreement with you, in that as much freight should go on to rail as possible, but having worked in distribution in 1 shape or form for all my working life. I possibly have a better grasp of what's possible, what's feasable, and more importantly, what's economical than most people on here. Several pallets a day from 1 company isn't going to make any difference to congestion on the roads, but will push prices through the roof for some products. Are you willing to pay the extra costs incurred?

 

[RichmondCommu]

Or look at the bigger picture.

You could argue there is enough rail demand in Knutsford for a second station and two of the main areas of employment are quite a distance from the existing station. The other side of the railway line from Knutsford Business Park there's development space, so not only space to put in a new station but new sidings as well. Like I already mentioned there are some large companies on the nearby Parkgate Industrial Estate such as Oliver Valves and Middlewich Food Trays who may be able to transport goods by freight. There's even a Royal Mail sorting office there, of course post can't be transported by rail can it? :roll:

There are several rail served freight terminals in this country who currently have no service what so ever, and those that do such as Ely only receive delivery of aggregates which arrives by the train load. In essence the freight terminals already exist but nobody wants to use them!