Pushchairs on trains

[6Gman]

Having read some of the experiences above, would the TOC expect the parent/s to fold even if they had all the items mentioned earlier hanging on: the pushchair, and perhaps the child was asleep?

We've seen so far that many experiences are that parents simply wish to and expect to leave the pushchair standing, and leave baby in pushchair. So how suitable or appropriate is any policy which stipulates that pushchairs must be folded?

Their gaff. Their rules.

 

[pt_mad]

Their gaff. Their rules.

Does it not make things awkward for staff though, if they had to tell parents they must fold as per rules, when as we have seen from some of these experiences, many wouldn't want to to or expect to, or due to travelling alone with baby and other items they are not able to by themselves?

 

[Taunton]

Do not forget that because open spaces for wheelchairs/buggies/standees etc generally come without seats, mama (and it normally is mama), full fare paying passenger, will normally be standing up, right there, throughout the journey, even if there are seats. So the two of them are taking up less space than two seated passengers.

I remember when accessibility provision was first coming in, the various campaigners made much of the fact that the expensive facilities could also be shared by those with buggies, etc. Once it's all provided, we and our small children are now the Scum Of The Earth, to be pilloried at every point.

 

[Groningen]

Such things are often parked on the balcony on a VIRM and Koploper in Netherlands; so direct near the doors. In a Sprinter such things move often to the bikeplaces.

 

[Doctor Fegg]

So the public don't have any right to influence the direction of railway policy, as dictated through DfT contracts, through parliamentary elections?

I think you'll find they do, as will become very apparent if the current leaders in the polls do indeed win the next election.

 

[221129]

At the end of the day If an unfolded push chair is causing an obstruction or a hazard, it can either be folded or moved. Off the train if so required.

If its not causing an issue then leave it be.

 

[maire23]

Sorry but as a sometime wheelchair user who doesn’t have kids I’ve found that pushchairs are a source of some frustration to me. It’s those ‘entitled’ parents that annoy me. I was once on a Northern train from Leeds to Nottingham and a family got on at Barnsley with a pushchair.
The mother turned to me and said ‘You move’ indicating my wheelchair and then indicating her buggy which she was trying to ram my chair with! I said in a loud and slow voice ‘Disabled. You move!’
When her husband realised what she was trying to do he apologised profusely, folded the buggy and hustled his wife into a seat. Another time, an EMT train from Nottingham to Liverpool, I had reserved the wheelchair space and when I got on a woman was sat there with a couple of kids and a pushchair. I politely told her that was my space and she refused to move saying ‘I have priority, you don’t need this space and anyway you don’t have a reservation as I can’t see one.’ She refused to move even when I told her that I have priority, not her, and I made sure everyone heard me tell her how selfish she is!
I have nothing against considerate pushchair users- on a packed XC train once I ended up commiserating with one poor mum who was having a nightmare and if I’m on my crutches rather than in my chair i’ll always move over when I can. It’s not easy being disabled though, especially when you’re young as I’ve found it’s harder to be taken seriously anyway and when those who think having a Sherman tank buggy containing a screaming child is a disability and that everyone should fall at their feet and worship them start throwing their weight around it makes me very cross!

 

[ComUtoR]

At the end of the day If an unfolded push chair is causing an obstruction or a hazard, it can either be folded or moved. Off the train if so required.

Good luck kicking a parent and a child off a train. The media would have a field day. We aren't even allowed to kick off teenagers without tickets.

 

[221129]

Good luck kicking a parent and a child off a train. The media would have a field day. We aren't even allowed to kick off teenagers without tickets.

That might be thr case for you. But it isn't the case for where I am. If the pushchair causes an obstruction or hazard to passengers or staff it moves or the train doesn't.

 

[Raul_Duke]

The mother turned to me and in broken English said ‘You move’ indicating my wheelchair and then indicating her buggy which she was trying to ram my chair with!

What does that have to do with anything?

 

[BestWestern]

In my and most of my colleagues opinion if a buggy is not in the way (blocking doors,vestibules,wheelchair spaces when it is required) then no problem but as soon as it becomes an obstruction it needs to be folded or removed.

Agreed. The problem tends to be a refusal to accept when the 'obstruction' stage has been reached!

 

[BestWestern]

Having read some of the experiences above, would the TOC expect the parent/s to fold even if they had all the items mentioned earlier hanging on: the pushchair, and perhaps the child was asleep?

We've seen so far that many experiences are that parents simply wish to and expect to leave the pushchair standing, and leave baby in pushchair. So how suitable or appropriate is any policy which stipulates that pushchairs must be folded?

A train has a fixed amount of space and there are lots of people who need to make use of it. The policy may be far from ideal, but it is sensible and necessary. If you've ever used a peaktime XC Voyager rammed to the rafters, you'd appreciate why!

 

[pt_mad]

Is it very often that a train is delayed due to a wheelchair user boarding the train (reserved or unreserved), and the wheelchair space is already full with a buggy/s and perhaps luggage?

As surely the train would need to wait in the station until the wheelchair user was in situ with the brakes on before it could leave. Which I imagine could take time if we're talking folding pushchairs and moving children?

 

[maire23]

What does that have to do with anything?

Plenty actually but I’m not going to get into that..!!!

 

[BestWestern]

Is it very often that a train is delayed due to a wheelchair user boarding the train (reserved or unreserved), and the wheelchair spaces is already full with a buggy/s and perhaps luggage?

As surely the train would need to wait in the station until the week hair user was in situ with the brakes in before it could leave. Which I imagine could take time I'd we're talking folding pushchairs and moving children?

TOCs need to make greater efforts to forewarn passengers of certain things, and the need to fold buggies is right up there at the top of the list, certainly.

 

[maire23]

Is it very often that a train is delayed due to a wheelchair user boarding the train (reserved or unreserved), and the wheelchair spaces is already full with a buggy/s and perhaps luggage?

As surely the train would need to wait in the station until the week hair user was in situ with the brakes in before it could leave. Which I imagine could take time I'd we're talking folding pushchairs and moving children?

I’ve been on a train where that has happened and unfortunately I was sat in the wheelchair space at the time when another wheelchair user boarded. It was unanimously decided I didn’t need the space so therefore I was told I needed to move (yes I was sat in my wheelchair) I refused needless to say. The other guy ended up in the lobby of the train but the train stood at Leeds station for ages.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Re the "tipping and boarding/disembarking" thing, that is what the autoannouncer on LNR now explicitly instructs you to do.

 

[fowler9]

Is the correct answer. However this thread will bring out all the usual RUK anti children bias that many posters seem to hold. I wonder why?

Just to clarify, I'm not anti children. Some parents on the other hand I am not a fan of.

 

[BestWestern]

I’ve been on a train where that has happened and unfortunately I was sat in the wheelchair space at the time when another wheelchair user boarded. It was unanimously decided I didn’t need the space so therefore I was told I needed to move (yes I was sat in my wheelchair) I refused needless to say. The other guy ended up in the lobby of the train but the train stood at Leeds station for ages.

How earth did anyone decide you "didn't need the space"?!

 

[Bletchleyite]

Wheelchair space officially has to be kept clear by law.

It doesn't, and XC should not be claiming that it does. They can have that policy, and should stand up for it themselves.

 

[BestWestern]

It doesn't, and XC should not be claiming that it does. They can have that policy, and should stand up for it themselves.

However, "must be vacated for..." is clearly a far more sensible and workable policy!

 

[Bletchleyite]

Their gaff. Their rules.

It is, but nobody has any business claiming things are law when they are not. It is policy, they decide it and they should stand up for it themselves. Airlines are particularly good at that, I find, such as claiming photo ID is legally required for domestic flights when it categorically is not (it isn't required by BA, if anyone wants proof).

 

[Bletchleyite]

However, "must be vacated for..." is clearly a far more sensible and workable policy!

I absolutely agree.

 

[Raul_Duke]

Plenty actually but I’m not going to get into that..!!!

So if someone with an RP English accent did it, then presumably you’d have moved and been ok with it?

 

[maire23]

So if someone with an RP English accent did it, then presumably you’d have moved and been ok with it?

Nope, I object to being told to move by anyone, especially so rudely. This woman was incredibly rude. Do you seriously think it’s acceptable for anyone to say ‘you move’ to someone? She then pretended she didn’t understand and kept ramming my wheelchair with her buggy!
And by the way- get it right. RP is a dialect, not an accent. If you’re going to be so objective I suggest you get your facts straight first.

 

[Bromley boy]

It doesn't, and XC should not be claiming that it does. They can have that policy, and should stand up for it themselves.

I seem to remember this issue was litigated in relation to buses and the decision in the case was that bus companies were not under a legal obligation to order a selfish buggy user to vacate a wheelchair space.

I'm unsure whether this translates directly to the equivalent situation on the railway. Is there something in the bylaws TOCs can use to compel people to vacate the space (putting issues of how practical it would be to enforce such a bylaw, even if one does exist, to one side)?

 

[ComUtoR]

And by the way- get it right. RP is a dialect, not an accent. If you’re going to be so objective I suggest you get your facts straight first.

Received Pronunciation (RP) is the accent of Standard English in the United Kingdom[1] and is defined in the Concise Oxford English Dictionary as "the standard accent of English as spoken in the south of England",[2] although it can be heard from native speakers throughout England and Wales.[3][4] Peter Trudgill estimated in 1974 that 3% of people in Britain were RP speakers,[5] but this rough estimate has been questioned by the phonetician J. Windsor Lewis.[6]

RP enjoys high social prestige in Britain,[7] being thought of as the accent of those with power, money, and influence, though it may be perceived negatively by some as being associated with undeserved privilege.[8][9] Since the 1960s, a greater permissiveness towards regional English varieties has taken hold in education.[10]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Received_Pronunciation

 

[maire23]

How earth did anyone decide you "didn't need the space"?!

Because XC’s policy is that the wheelchair space is only for those who cannot transfer. They’ve told me that everyone who can transfer must do, regardless of whether it is safe or not. This is what my argument is- I have certain other conditions which mean I start to feel very anxious and unsafe in certain situations by my wheelchair is a safe space for me.
I transferred from a seat back to my wheelchair as I started to panic and feel unsafe. I was told that because I am not ‘confined’ to a wheelchair I must fold my chair (which I cannot do) and go and sit in a seat. When I pointed out that there were no seats in which for me to sit (train was full and standing) and that I felt unsafe sitting I was told ‘to stand then’
To which I replied they best have an ambulance waiting at Wakefield as I would likely collapse. I was allowed to remain in the space eventually....

 

[pt_mad]

However, "must be vacated for..." is clearly a far more sensible and workable policy!

Perhaps it is their policy to keep the space clear in order to minimise delay?

Because if a wheelchair user were to board at a station which has a 1 or 2 minute stop, and the wheelchair space is full and babies are asleep in the pushchairs, there is every chance of a delay.

 

[fowler9]

Because XC’s policy is that the wheelchair space is only for those who cannot transfer. They’ve told me that everyone who can transfer must do, regardless of whether it is safe or not. This is what my argument is- I have certain other conditions which mean I start to feel very anxious and unsafe in certain situations by my wheelchair is a safe space for me.
I transferred from a seat back to my wheelchair as I started to panic and feel unsafe. I was told that because I am not ‘confined’ to a wheelchair I must fold my chair (which I cannot do) and go and sit in a seat. When I pointed out that there were no seats in which for me to sit (train was full and standing) and that I felt unsafe sitting I was told ‘to stand then’
To which I replied they best have an ambulance waiting at Wakefield as I would likely collapse. I was allowed to remain in the space eventually....

Ah mate that is horrible, I don't use a wheelchair myself but I suffer from panic attacks and anxiety and I know how awful it can be.