Purbeck Breezers

[DaveHarries]

Just been looking on the morebus website and they mention an investment of £2.3m in 12 brand-new buses for Purbeck Brezzer services 40 & 50.

http://www.morebus.co.uk/article.shtml?articleid=5434

This year we are investing £2.3 million in 12 brand new buses to be used on our Purbeck Breezer tour routes.These new buses are due for delivery at the end of Summer 2016 and in preparation for getting them on the road we are already thinking about the look and feel and that's where you come in...

Anyone know what the vehicles will be? I guess Enviro400s but I could be wrong.

HTIOI,
Dave

 

[westcoaster]

Just so happens I saw this on Twitter today, https://mobile.twitter.com/andrewwickhamgo/status/661968378542845954

In the comments it says MCV deckers

 

[trentside]

I know that MCV have previously offered options for brand new partial open toppers - so presumably this is what has attracted Go-Ahead to them. The existing fleet is a mix of convertible and partial open toppers, so it will be interesting to see if the new fleet is the same.

 

[westcoaster]

I know that MCV have previously offered options for brand new partial open toppers - so presumably this is what has attracted Go-Ahead to them. The existing fleet is a mix of convertible and partial open toppers, so it will be interesting to see if the new fleet is the same.

3 different set-ups

Andrew Wickham
Nov 4
Andrew Wickham ‏@AndrewWickhamGo
@19ALAN57 @SandbanksFerry May '16 for the closed and partially opn top, Sept '16 for the convertibles (subject to deliveries).

 

[the101]

I know that MCV have previously offered options for brand new partial open toppers - so presumably this is what has attracted Go-Ahead to them. The existing fleet is a mix of convertible and partial open toppers, so it will be interesting to see if the new fleet is the same.

It was announced at the time the East Yorkshire MCV EvoSeti featured in the trade press that MCV would be building partial and full open-top variants from the get-go. Presumably this was to maintain its relationship with Golden Tours, but no doubt it will prove attractive to others, such as Go-Ahead as we see here. Go-Ahead are also taking some closed-top examples for London.

 

[E-Rail]

I work the Purbeck Breezers out of Swanage depot and yes, it will be 12 Volvo B5TL MCVs that will replace the Scania Optare Olympuses and Visionaires from 2009.

MCV won the order as no other bodybuilder was prepared to meet the specifications for the Swanage routes. In fact MCV visited in August to inspect the current convertibles as they had never built to that spec before.

The Purbeck Breezer Evoseti's will have various modifications to guarantee clearance on and off the Sandbanks Ferry. The front and rear side skirts will be cut away and the bumpers will be higher than on the EYMS bus. They will also need larger tyres fitted to provide extra lift at low tides.

Personally I am hoping Best Impressions will work their magic on the MCV design to improve the rather ugly front.

As for the existing fleet, the three half tops are off to Southern Vectis for the Downs Breezer whilst the six convertibles are moving to Lymington to replace the B7TLs on the New Forest Tours. The 3 closed top Olympuses are expected to move to Poole to provide ferry accessible breakdown spares.

 

[fgwrich]

It was announced at the time the East Yorkshire MCV EvoSeti featured in the trade press that MCV would be building partial and full open-top variants from the get-go. Presumably this was to maintain its relationship with Golden Tours, but no doubt it will prove attractive to others, such as Go-Ahead as we see here. Go-Ahead are also taking some closed-top examples for London.

Slightly off topic but, as MCV are prepared to produce Closed / Semi and Open Top versions of the EvoSeti, and as First currently have one for testing up in Yorkshire - I wonder if First are watching this with a vision for suitable variant for Kernow?

I must admit to being pleased that the Optares are going, I've never really been a fan of that design of vehicle - and the rather annoying mooing noises they produce from presumably the radiator cooling.

 

[bb21]

What the hell is morebus?

(Before anyone attempts to answer, it is a rhetorical question.)

 

[BestWestern]

I work the Purbeck Breezers out of Swanage depot and yes, it will be 12 Volvo B5TL MCVs that will replace the Scania Optare Olympuses and Visionaires from 2009.

Are these the same B5's that have gained a reputation for being gutless? Is the Breezer a hilly route? :-/

 

[the101]

Are these the same B5's that have gained a reputation for being gutless? Is the Breezer a hilly route? :-/

I doubt outright speed is much of a consideration on open-top work, and in any case if new full/part open-toppers are required what alternative is there? It was speculated (but not confirmed) that Optare would do an open-top MetroDecker, but that has an engine which is the same size as the B5TL.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

Slightly off topic but, as MCV are prepared to produce Closed / Semi and Open Top versions of the EvoSeti, and as First currently have one for testing up in Yorkshire - I wonder if First are watching this with a vision for suitable variant for Kernow?

I don't know about that, but the big benefit of an MCV B5TL over a Wrightbus-bodied example comes when it's time to pay for it, if you see what I mean, and that will no doubt have registered on First's radar.

 

[BestWestern]

I doubt outright speed is much of a consideration on open-top work, and in any case if new full/part open-toppers are required what alternative is there? It was speculated (but not confirmed) that Optare would do an open-top MetroDecker, but that has an engine which is the same size as the B5TL.

It isn't so much 'outright speed' which is the concern, but the ability for the bus to be driven amongst other traffic safely. Brighton & Hove very quickly found with their early Wright Streetdecks on their coastal route that the engines are woefully underpowered. Drivers and passengers alike have registered concerns that their hillclimbing ability is unacceptably poor. Hence my wondering how hilly the Perbeck Breezer runs are?

Sadly it seems that tiny five litre lumps are set to become the standard offering. Rather depressingly, this is likely to lead to even flimsier build quality as manufacturers try to counter the obvious performance issues of a twelve ton double decker bus with an engine smaller than that fitted to a seven ton Dennis Dart.

 

[baza585]

I work the Purbeck Breezers out of Swanage depot and yes, it will be 12 Volvo B5TL MCVs that will replace the Scania Optare Olympuses and Visionaires from 2009.

MCV won the order as no other bodybuilder was prepared to meet the specifications for the Swanage routes. In fact MCV visited in August to inspect the current convertibles as they had never built to that spec before.

The Purbeck Breezer Evoseti's will have various modifications to guarantee clearance on and off the Sandbanks Ferry. The front and rear side skirts will be cut away and the bumpers will be higher than on the EYMS bus. They will also need larger tyres fitted to provide extra lift at low tides.

Personally I am hoping Best Impressions will work their magic on the MCV design to improve the rather ugly front.

As for the existing fleet, the three half tops are off to Southern Vectis for the Downs Breezer whilst the six convertibles are moving to Lymington to replace the B7TLs on the New Forest Tours. The 3 closed top Olympuses are expected to move to Poole to provide ferry accessible breakdown spares.

Thanks for that good info.

I'm slightly surprised they have gone for B5TL chassis given the hilly nature of the Swanage end of the 40 & 50 routes, and the reliability (ahem!) of the demonstrator they had last year. Still doesn't look as if they had a lot of options given they had no other bodybuilder interested (would MCV have been prepared to build on Scania or ADL chassis I wonder?

Any idea where the displaced Volvos from Lymo will go (maybe just stay there to replace the remaining Spectras on schools)?

 

[padbus]

Thanks for that good info.

Still doesn't look as if they had a lot of options given they had no other bodybuilder interested (would MCV have been prepared to build on Scania or ADL chassis I wonder?

It's a shame that whilst ADL offer an open top E400 for the North American market (http://www.alexander-dennis.com/products/enviro400-open-top-tourist-bus/) they don't seem willing to build any for the UK.

 

[90019]

Sadly it seems that tiny five litre lumps are set to become the standard offering. Rather depressingly, this is likely to lead to even flimsier build quality as manufacturers try to counter the obvious performance issues of a twelve ton double decker bus with an engine smaller than that fitted to a seven ton Dennis Dart.

It seems to depend more on the gearbox and how it's set up than the engine - we have some 64 plate B5TLs that are gutless and jerky, while the 15 plate ones are much smoother and feel faster.

The B5 is much better suited as a hybrid, in my opinion, and one set up properly with the I-Shift gearbox is a fantastic piece of kit.
The 64 plate single decks we have will happily accelerate up hills that B9s struggle with.

 

[E-Rail]

Thanks for that good info.

I'm slightly surprised they have gone for B5TL chassis given the hilly nature of the Swanage end of the 40 & 50 routes, and the reliability (ahem!) of the demonstrator they had last year. Still doesn't look as if they had a lot of options given they had no other bodybuilder interested (would MCV have been prepared to build on Scania or ADL chassis I wonder?

Any idea where the displaced Volvos from Lymo will go (maybe just stay there to replace the remaining Spectras on schools)?

THE B5TL/MCV option was the only combination available (although it does just so happen that this combination is also pretty competitively priced at the moment). Neither ADL nor Wright were able to build open tops or convertibles and Scania still haven't got a Euro 6 decker on the market yet. That said, the B5TL outperformed the Euro 5 B9TL on the Alpine circuit at Millbrook so hill climbing shouldn't be a problem provided the six speed ZF Ecolife's Topodyn software is set up for the Purbeck terrain and the kick down option is taken up as it doesn't come as standard on new Volvos. This is the problem with the dreadful Wright Streetdecks in Brighton, they have four speed Voiths with no holding options or kick down available.

As for the Lymington B7TLs, I believe they are moving to Poole to displace the remaining Spectras before the double deck DDA deadline in December.

 

[BestWestern]

It's interesting; Vectis have a very smart OmniDekka semi-open, which I believe was converted after a fire or accident. So clearly somebody has the ability to fashion something from the existing fleet. I'm rather surprised then that a few more (they're seven years old after all) weren't converted along similar lines. They seem to be reasonably gutsy, and it would have allowed a slightly more uniform fleet of open toppers across Go South Coast, rather than the current 'bits n bobs'. The replacements could then have been tagged onto whatever the next 'off the peg' decker order was planned to be.

 

[E-Rail]

It's interesting; Vectis have a very smart OmniDekka semi-open, which I believe was converted after a fire or accident. So clearly somebody has the ability to fashion something from the existing fleet. I'm rather surprised then that a few more (they're seven years old after all) weren't converted along similar lines. They seem to be reasonably gutsy, and it would have allowed a slightly more uniform fleet of open toppers across Go South Coast, rather than the current 'bits n bobs'. The replacements could then have been tagged onto whatever the next 'off the peg' decker order was planned to be.

The Omnicity deckers are unable to use the Sandbanks Ferry. Only 1401-1412 can operate route 50.

Go South Coast also have a huge amount of independence from Go Ahead and have their own buying policy which is to buy the right product for the job, rather than standardising for the sake of it.

 

[the101]

It isn't so much 'outright speed' which is the concern, but the ability for the bus to be driven amongst other traffic safely. Brighton & Hove very quickly found with their early Wright Streetdecks on their coastal route that the engines are woefully underpowered. Drivers and passengers alike have registered concerns that their hillclimbing ability is unacceptably poor. Hence my wondering how hilly the Perbeck Breezer runs are?

Sadly it seems that tiny five litre lumps are set to become the standard offering. Rather depressingly, this is likely to lead to even flimsier build quality as manufacturers try to counter the obvious performance issues of a twelve ton double decker bus with an engine smaller than that fitted to a seven ton Dennis Dart.

That's hardly the manufacturers' fault. They are just doing what operators are pressing them to, and that is reduce weight and fuel consumption by downsizing engines. Anyone could have seen that the StreetDecks were going to struggle on the Coaster route. In any case, operators are hardly likely to care that buses aren't capable of going quickly up hills if they are delivering the kind of fuel savings talked about when compared with first generation low-floor 'deckers.

I'd also question why on earth the whole thing would be 'depressing' to anybody bar an obsessive.

 

[ChrisPJ]

Last time I checked the standard Enviro still had a 6.7 litre Cummins six cylinder which seems to be a decent power unit well suited to the vehicle.

I'm sure ADL would have built batches of the open top version if any UK operators were seriously interested?

 

[BestWestern]

That's hardly the manufacturers' fault. They are just doing what operators are pressing them to, and that is reduce weight and fuel consumption by downsizing engines. Anyone could have seen that the StreetDecks were going to struggle on the Coaster route. In any case, operators are hardly likely to care that buses aren't capable of going quickly up hills if they are delivering the kind of fuel savings talked about when compared with first generation low-floor 'deckers.

I'd also question why on earth the whole thing would be 'depressing' to anybody bar an obsessive.

Cold shower, sir...?!

As an enthusiast, license holder and former driver, it is saddening to see the industry slowly suffocating like it is, and issues like this are an illustration of some of the problems. It is regretful that decent, serviceable and competent machines are being withdrawn en masse due to legislation, while their replacements are inadequate for the job and compromised to the point of being flawed. A five litre engine is quite clearly insufficient to shift a twelve ton double decker bus up a hill at anything vaguely approaching an acceptable pace, and specifying such vehicles for a hilly route is a poor state of affairs, whatever the root cause.

As for the operator, in the case of B&H they should care if a flagship service, marketed at tourists, is tediously slow because the buses are barely able to progress along it. They should care if the passenger perception is that the buses are cr*p. They should care if the drivers (often hand picked and dedicated to such services, to enhance the customer experience) are exasperated because their vehicles are not up to the job. And they should care that their buses, which carry their livery and reputation, are seen as a nuisance to other road users because they are likely to case tailbacks on a busy road (as has been suggested in this case). None of the above is good value for money.

The Omnicity deckers are unable to use the Sandbanks Ferry. Only 1401-1412 can operate route 50.

That is a good point!

 

[Robertj21a]

Cold shower, sir...?!

As an enthusiast, license holder and former driver, it is saddening to see the industry slowly suffocating like it is, and issues like this are an illustration of some of the problems. It is regretful that decent, serviceable and competent machines are being withdrawn en masse due to legislation, while their replacements are inadequate for the job and compromised to the point of being flawed. A five litre engine is quite clearly insufficient to shift a twelve ton double decker bus up a hill at anything vaguely approaching an acceptable pace, and specifying such vehicles for a hilly route is a poor state of affairs, whatever the root cause.

As for the operator, in the case of B&H they should care if a flagship service, marketed at tourists, is tediously slow because the buses are barely able to progress along it. They should care if the passenger perception is that the buses are cr*p. They should care if the drivers (often hand picked and dedicated to such services, to enhance the customer experience) are exasperated because their vehicles are not up to the job. And they should care that their buses, which carry their livery and reputation, are seen as a nuisance to other road users because they are likely to case tailbacks on a busy road (as has been suggested in this case). None of the above is good value for money.

So, if it's all as you quote, are you suggesting that Brighton & Hove just don't care ?

 

[the101]

Cold shower, sir...?!

As an enthusiast, license holder and former driver, it is saddening to see the industry slowly suffocating like it is, and issues like this are an illustration of some of the problems. It is regretful that decent, serviceable and competent machines are being withdrawn en masse due to legislation, while their replacements are inadequate for the job and compromised to the point of being flawed. A five litre engine is quite clearly insufficient to shift a twelve ton double decker bus up a hill at anything vaguely approaching an acceptable pace, and specifying such vehicles for a hilly route is a poor state of affairs, whatever the root cause.

As for the operator, in the case of B&H they should care if a flagship service, marketed at tourists, is tediously slow because the buses are barely able to progress along it. They should care if the passenger perception is that the buses are cr*p. They should care if the drivers (often hand picked and dedicated to such services, to enhance the customer experience) are exasperated because their vehicles are not up to the job. And they should care that their buses, which carry their livery and reputation, are seen as a nuisance to other road users because they are likely to case tailbacks on a busy road (as has been suggested in this case). None of the above is good value for money.

You are vastly over-thinking the whole thing.

 

[BestWestern]

You are vastly over-thinking the whole thing.

Well, it's a discussion forum and all...

It's a fair while now since I drove. 'Back in the day', as they say, we had bog standard diesel buses that did the job. We had tight timings, as the industry always has done, but you did what you could to keep to them, without undue harassment. The old folk of the time paid half their fare, and so generally travelled with a purpose.

Fast forward a few years; we have vehicles which are increasingly heavy, complex, expensive and in some cases not up to the job. Drivers are harrassed by the dreaded 'Greenroad' etc systems, which it seems produce some bizarre reports of people's driving and adds further to the sense of disillusionment felt by so many drivers; and the industry is being pushed to the brink by the current concessionary passes system and local authorities' apparent carte blanch to save cash by reimbursing operators as little as they can possibly get away with.

It's a bleak picture on many fronts, and yes it does bother me!

 

[Robertj21a]

Well, it's a discussion forum and all...

It's a fair while now since I drove. 'Back in the day', as they say, we had bog standard diesel buses that did the job. We had tight timings, as the industry always has done, but you did what you could to keep to them, without undue harassment. The old folk of the time paid half their fare, and so generally travelled with a purpose.

Fast forward a few years; we have vehicles which are increasingly heavy, complex, expensive and in some cases not up to the job. Drivers are harrassed by the dreaded 'Greenroad' etc systems, which it seems produce some bizarre reports of people's driving and adds further to the sense of disillusionment felt by so many drivers; and the industry is being pushed to the brink by the current concessionary passes system and local authorities' apparent carte blanch to save cash by reimbursing operators as little as they can possibly get away with.

It's a bleak picture on many fronts, and yes it does bother me!

Not sure how 'vehicles are increasingly heavy' - all the new stuff I've seen recently is significantly lighter than the buses they're replacing.

 

[mbonwick]

But still significantly heavier than the step entrance vehicles of just a few years ago. Unladen weight of a Volvo Olympian was somewhere around 9t (or was it 9.5t?); these days the only decker with a sub-10t unladen weight is the Optare Metrodecker, and even then it's only by a few kgs....

 

[Robertj21a]

But still significantly heavier than the step entrance vehicles of just a few years ago. Unladen weight of a Volvo Olympian was somewhere around 9t (or was it 9.5t?); these days the only decker with a sub-10t unladen weight is the Optare Metrodecker, and even then it's only by a few kgs....

True, it depends what you are talking about. My example would be First Group Scanias or Volvos being replaced with Streetlites.

 

[SpacePhoenix]

The buses used for the Breezers will be heavier as they need special suspension to raise them up for going on the ferry. Don't know if they're equipped with the "kneeling" functionality as well

 

[E-Rail]

The buses used for the Breezers will be heavier as they need special suspension to raise them up for going on the ferry. Don't know if they're equipped with the "kneeling" functionality as well

Yeah, the Scania Optares have ferry lifts and regular kneeling.

 

[BestWestern]

True, it depends what you are talking about. My example would be First Group Scanias or Volvos being replaced with Streetlites.

They're different sized vehicles, though. Replacing a full size bus such as a Volvo B10BLE with a Streetlite is like replacing a Vauxhall Vectra with an Astra. Of course it will be lighter, it is a smaller motor and occupies a different sector of the market. By the same measure, they won't last as long. Just as a Dart is very tired by about 12 or so years old, the new generation of lightweight, rattly buses with tiny engines screaming away will be the same. A big Volvo will give a smooth, competent drive even after 15 years of FirstBus neglect, simply because they are solidly built and generally bulletproof.

Piling on the pounds has been going on for some time now. A standard Barbie B10BLE/Wright Renown (44 seats) is about 10.5 tons empty. A Scania OmniCity (41 seats) comes in at around 12.5 tons (the Volvo is more reliable, too!). This is where the concept of 'Super Darts' etc comes from; take a light chassis and just stretch it to make a sort of pseudo full size bus.

Many operators see little choice but to downsize, using lighter duty machinery in place of previous heavy duty stuff, but the buses are not directly comparable.

 

[embers25]

As an aside...I didn't realise the open toppers ran in winter now as they were running the weekend before last....a bit chilly I would've thought! Was that a one off or normal now?