Pupils taking mobile phones to school.

[najaB]

Whether or not deleting an app is outside the legislation I also have not checked, but it is probably unwise (especially since the sanction is available to confiscate the phone).

As noted above, it would be very hard to argue that it doesn't breach Section 3 of the Computer Misuse Act.

 

[dakta]

Headteachers and staff they authorise have a statutory power to search a pupil or
their possessions where they have reasonable grounds to suspect that the pupil may
have a prohibited item listed in paragraph 3 or any other item that the school rules
identify as an item which may be searched for

Searching is a read operation in the 'you're gaining information on a situation' context, deleting an app is the quite literal destruction of data and is quite the something else

 

[ComUtoR]

Searching is a read operation in the 'you're gaining information on a situation' context, deleting an app is the quite literal destruction of data and is quite the something else

And yet, they are allowed to delete your data.

 

[dakta]

Interesting. On what grounds?

Closest I could find is on here - 'https://childlawadvice.org.uk/information-pages/school-powers-to-search-and-screen-pupils/'

n determining whether there is a ‘good reason’ to examine the data or files, the member of staff should reasonably suspect that the data or file on the device has been, or could be used, to cause harm, undermine the safe environment of the school and disrupt teaching, or be used to commit an offence.

But that seems to hinge more on pupils suspected of commiting, planning to commit serious instances of abuse/bullying etc, which has obvious safeguarding implications and is escalated on the situation - not so much 'we can delete facebook if you misbehave'

Ultimately if in doubt just don't give the PIN.

 

[najaB]

And yet, they are allowed to delete your data.

What gives them the power to delete data/apps in contravention of the Computer Misuse Act?

 

[ComUtoR]

https://assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/1091132/Searching__Screening_and_Confiscation_guidance_July_2022.pdf

“Headteachers and staff they authorise have a statutory power to search a pupil or
their possessions where they have reasonable grounds to suspect that the pupil may
have a prohibited item listed in paragraph 3 or any other item that the school rules
identify as an item which may be searched for”

Interesting. On what grounds?

Closest I could find is on here - 'https://childlawadvice.org.uk/information-pages/school-powers-to-search-and-screen-pupils/'



But that seems to hinge more on pupils suspected of commiting, planning to commit serious instances of abuse/bullying etc, which has obvious safeguarding implications and is escalated on the situation - not so much 'we can delete facebook if you misbehave'

Ultimately if in doubt just don't give the PIN.

What gives them the power to delete data/apps in contravention of the Computer Misuse Act?

Because of the information contained in the documents linked above. The first one is a government document. It very clearly states they are allowed to delete data. As I stated in an earlier post. They have very overreaching powers. In the document linked above, I think the key phrase(s) that we should be aware of (and this is how they get away with it). Are "any item in the school rules" and "undermine the safe environment and disrupt teaching" Those are very broad.

So let's say that two kids are on the back of the class sending WhatsApps to each other. They have a banned item and disrupting teaching. The government document allows the phone to be confiscated, searched, and then WhatsApp getting deleted.

 

[dakta]

In exceptional circumstances members of staff may dispose of the image or data if there is a good reason to do so. In determining a ‘good reason’ to examine or erase the data or files, the member of staff must have regard to the following guidance issued by the Secretary of State in paragraphs 78 and 79 below.

78. In determining whether there is a ‘good reason’ to examine the data or files, the member of staff should reasonably suspect that the data or file on the device has been, or could be used, to cause harm, undermine the safe environment of the school and disrupt teaching, or be used to commit an offence. 79. In determining whether there is a ‘good reason’ to erase any data or files from the device, the member of staff should consider whether the material found may constitute evidence relating to a suspected offence. In those instances, the data or files should not be deleted, and the device must be handed to the police as soon as it is reasonably practicable. If the data or files are not suspected to be evidence in relation to an offence, a member of staff may delete the data or files if the continued existence of the data or file is likely to continue to cause harm to any person and the pupil and/or the parent refuses to delete the data or files themselves.

As I said, when they ask for the PIN tell them to sod off, or try and put the bold bit justified in writing. I feel this is geared towards serous offenses not people having a chinwag on facebook though I can totally see teachers climbing up their own arse about it.

 

[najaB]

The government document allows the phone to be confiscated, searched, and then WhatsApp getting deleted.

I wouldn't like to be in the position of a teacher who deleted any data given that, having confiscated the device, there is no longer any disruption to the teaching environment.

 

[Seejwalker]

Personally, I’d never send my child to school without her phone. Having no ability to contact me at all is a scary thought.
I don’t think having phones at school is an issue, providing you set boundaries for your child and they’re disciplined enough to adhere to them.

 

[WizCastro197]

As I said, when they ask for the PIN tell them to sod off, or try and put the bold bit justified in writing. I feel this is geared towards serous offenses not people having a chinwag on facebook though I can totally see teachers climbing up their own arse about it.

Imagine a child say acting their age is told to open their phone, they wouldn’t say sod off or no they would do it as they would think the Memebr of Staff has authority to do that.


By law they probably can and do but socially and morally it is completely wrong.

 

[Cloud Strife]

Imagine a child say acting their age is told to open their phone, they wouldn’t say sod off or no they would do it as they would think the Memebr of Staff has authority to do that.

Which is why it's important to teach children about their rights (and the law) from a very early age. They don't have to say "sod off" or similar, they have to simply say "no". If the teacher uses physical force to obtain the phone, or worse still, uses physical force in order to coerce them into unlocking the phone, then there would be a scandal of biblical proportions.

It's also worth pointing out that most teachers are not going to put their career on the line for the sake of a mobile phone. The second you use physical force in such a situation, you're looking at an investigation and possible suspension while the incident is examined. Will the headteacher back you up? Most probably not.

But that government guidance is also very strange. If there's something that can cause harm to others on the phone, then it shouldn't be deleted! It should be retained as evidence, pending possible criminal investigation.

 

[dakta]

The sod off was metaphorical really (might be the wrong word) but yeah just say no. It is important to know your rights and even the police have difficulty getting PINs out of suspects.

For what it's worth i struggle to see the need for teachers to delete data - if its just an app you dont want students using its none of their business, if its bullying or abuse it needs to go higher.

 

[Cloud Strife]

The sod off was metaphorical really (might be the wrong word) but yeah just say no. It is important to know your rights and even the police have difficulty getting PINs out of suspects.

For what it's worth i struggle to see the need for teachers to delete data - if its just an app you dont want students using its none of their business, if its bullying or abuse it needs to go higher.

The simple response in this situation is: I don't know the PIN/code/etc. Face ID can be quickly disabled if you need to do so, and the school has no power to force a student to unlock a device.

If there's a suspicion that the device has been used to commit a crime, then it should go higher. The average teacher is not in any position to secure evidence, after all.

 

[AY1975]

It’s certainly not dubious on the premises and, although I haven’t looked in any detail, I doubt it is forbidden outside the school either:

Yes, and AFAIK schools are perfectly within their rights to impose whatever rules they like, within reason (though what is and what isn't within reason is open to debate - see also this now closed thread on daft school rules: https://www.railforums.co.uk/threads/daft-school-rules.224745/), about what their pupils may and may not do both in school and on their way to or from school.

On that basis, they may ban their pupils from using a mobile phone or having one visible when wearing their school uniforms and within sight of the public, just as most schools have for many years had a ban on pupils smoking when in uniform whether on the school premises or anywhere where they can be seen by the public.

 

[Yew]

My children's school (a standard secondary school) also ban phones until 6th form. No arguments. If caught, it's forfeited for 2 days for the 1st time, then 3 days, then a week - and it has to be handed back to a responsible adult.

Anecdotally, very few children break the rule as the school has the general respect of the children and their parents.

How is hardline prohibition going to help the children form a healthy relationship with mobile phones in the future?

 

[pdq]

How is hardline prohibition going to help the children form a healthy relationship with mobile phones in the future?

Judging by the amount of time my two (17 and 13) spend on their phones, children already have a very 'healthy' relationship with their phones. The teaching of awareness of online safety, mental well-being, cyber-bullying etc does not require the child to have a phone with them.
As a parent, I am glad to be certain that they get a solid 8 hours a day when they are unable to be glued to it at all, and where there is no risk of it being lost, damaged etc. Sure, it's occasionally annoying when they have after school activities but, in any real urgent need, the school will let them use an office phone.

And I say all this as a confirmed technophile. I have nothing against phones - I use mine probably far more than I should. But the struggle to get them to look away from it at home is palpable and constant.

It's debateable how sustainable the policy will be in the longer term though. At some point, I can see their bus pass moving from a smartcard to an app. Whilst not many people use buses to get to their school, that would probably be a turning point.

 

[BJames]

Judging by the amount of time my two (17 and 13) spend on their phones, children already have a very 'healthy' relationship with their phones. The teaching of awareness of online safety, mental well-being, cyber-bullying etc does not require the child to have a phone with them.
As a parent, I am glad to be certain that they get a solid 8 hours a day when they are unable to be glued to it at all, and where there is no risk of it being lost, damaged etc. Sure, it's occasionally annoying when they have after school activities but, in any real urgent need, the school will let them use an office phone.

And I say all this as a confirmed technophile. I have nothing against phones - I use mine probably far more than I should. But the struggle to get them to look away from it at home is palpable and constant.

It's debateable how sustainable the policy will be in the longer term though. At some point, I can see their bus pass moving from a smartcard to an app. Whilst not many people use buses to get to their school, that would probably be a turning point.

While this is not directly the purpose of this thread, it is somewhat relevant - my school had c.1300 people in, and I used to wait at the bus stop outside the front of the school with around 100 others every day - it took two completely empty buses to come through and clear the vast majoirty, others waited for the next one/went to the park etc if they couldn't get on, as the route is half hourly with a schooltime extra. I occasionally went different ways home - and at bus stops serving different routes, there would be similar numbers. I would estimate about half the schoolchildren at my school took the bus. Ours wouldn't go onto app only I imagine as it's in London but the turning point as you say is definitely transferable to others schools around the country.