Pulling Semaphores after a train has passed

[DevonTrains]

I was wondering why signallers often don’t revert a signal back to danger well after a train has passed. For example, I was at Lostwithiel toad at and one signal was still at clear a good five minutes after the train had passed.

 

[The exile]

I was wondering why signallers often don’t revert a signal back to danger well after a train has passed. For example, I was at Lostwithiel toad at and one signal was still at clear a good five minutes after the train had passed.

If nothing has been offered on from the previous box there’s no danger and there may well be more pressing immediate priorities. Indeed, IIRC an accident occurred at Hull in the 1920s to which one of the contributory factors was the speed at which signals were reset. Not many manually operated areas left where there’s that great a traffic density now. (The only ones I can think of where it might get close are Worcester, Shrewsbury and possibly Littlehampton and Bognor)

 

[VP185]

Signallers MAY wait until there are no trains in their section before reverting them back to danger. Possibly mitigates them throwing the wrong lever back and having to fill out no end of paperwork!

 

[The Puddock]

Signallers MAY wait until there are no trains in their section before reverting them back to danger. Possibly mitigates them throwing the wrong lever back and having to fill out no end of paperwork!

Beyond making a suitable entry in the Train Register Book there is no ‘paperwork’ for a signaller to fill out after causing a technical SPAR.

 

[Ashley Hill]

Perhaps he was waiting for Treverrin IBS to clear to save getting up twice!

 

[VP185]

Beyond making a suitable entry in the Train Register Book there is no ‘paperwork’ for a signaller to fill out after causing a technical SPAR.

Just us drivers who gets it then!

 

[Sun Chariot]

I was wondering why signallers often don’t revert a signal back to danger well after a train has passed.

At the other end of the scale, the home peg for Marchwood MoD spur, had been pulled back to danger whilst the loco here was still passing under it.

Mind you, the signal operator here also manually opens and closes the level crossing gates, so every second counts....

 

[Gloster]

I always saw it as good practice to replace a signal to Danger once the train was safely past, but not to be too hurried: leaving it at clear for a long time looks sloppy, but just occasionally the signalman may have more urgent things to do. There is no risk that the previous signal might be cleared and a train pass the signal left at clear when it shouldn’t due to sequential locking, when you can’t clear a signal if the next is at clear, and Home Normal Contact, which means you can’t give Line Clear to the previous box for a second train unless the Home Signal is at Danger. (N.b. this was 1980s rules, but I doubt that they have been eased.)

 

[edwin_m]

In a traditional mechanical interlocking, the signal lever being reversed prevents movement of the levers for any points after the signal. I believe there is still a rule that the lever can't be replaced until the train has passed over those points.

 

[Krokodil]

One should never replace the lever until the train is clear of any pointwork it protects.

 

[ChiefPlanner]

One should never replace the lever until the train is clear of any pointwork it protects.

That is the message I was taught .........

 

[Islineclear3_1]

Certainly at a location I know well, the signal is always returned to Danger once the train has cleared any pointwork and is safely on its way

 

[Foxhunter]

I always saw it as good practice to replace a signal to Danger once the train was safely past, but not to be too hurried

I signal on a heritage railway and agree with this. The only times I set the signal back on the moment the train has passed are if I have got something else in section; this will usually be if I have got two engines to let out of the yard in the morning (Ok, so not technically a section), or if I have a light engine behind a train departing from a platform. Sequential locking doesn't help either of these two situations.

One should never replace the lever until the train is clear of any pointwork it protects.

That is the message I was taught .........

Again, agree with this, but if I have a track circuit interlock on the points I never think I am achieving very much by doing so. But yes, until a recent upgrade, one the boxes I work had no track circuits and it was a rule you had to be sure to obey. That location now has auto replacing semaphores - it's a bit freaky seeing the signal operate when I'm out of the box to exchange the token.

 

[John R]

I was wondering why signallers often don’t revert a signal back to danger well after a train has passed. For example, I was at Lostwithiel toad at and one signal was still at clear a good five minutes after the train had passed.

I hope you savoured the heritage atmosphere - only a couple of weeks left now, (and just two days at Truro I believe).

 

[Class172]

One should never replace the lever until the train is clear of any pointwork it protects.

That is the message I was taught .........

Same here on the heritage railway I volunteer at.

 

[Llanigraham]

I would always try and wait until I could see that the red tail light had cleared the Section signal before clearing the others and opening the barriers.

 

[GardenRail]

Perhaps he was waiting for Treverrin IBS to clear to save getting up twice!

Economy of movement. That's what I got taught on my first day in the box. Why get up 3 times when 1 will do.

 

[The exile]

That is the message I was taught .........

Think that may have been precisely the lesson to be learned from the Hull accident I mentioned earlier

 

[Ashley Hill]

Economy of movement. That's what I got taught on my first day in the box.

Unless the marks were being taken .

 

[Ken H]

1950 rule book rule 68
(a)'A stop signal must be placed at danger immediately the last vehicle if a train has passed it except (list of exceptions)
69(b) when a stop signal has been lowered for the passage of a train it must not ..... be placed at Danger before the train has passed it as laid down in clause (a) or has come to a stand.

I'll scan the rule and post on this thread, as what I have posted here is an edited version.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 25 Feb 2024 ==

as promised...

page 071d.jpg is how it looks when you open the page. The owner has stuck a change over the top and that is image page071.jpg
But I think you have all of rule 68
Interesting example on how corrections were done in the old days. But then I remember correcting maritime stuff (charts, almanacs) in the first decade of the current century.

 

[ChiefPlanner]

1950 rule book rule 68
(a)'A stop signal must be placed at danger immediately the last vehicle if a train has passed it except (list of exceptions)
69(b) when a stop signal has been lowered for the passage of a train it must not ..... be placed at Danger before the train has passed it as laid down in clause (a) or has come to a stand.

I'll scan the rule and post on this thread, as what I have posted here is an edited version.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 25 Feb 2024 ==

as promised...

page 071d.jpg is how it looks when you open the page. The owner has stuck a change over the top and that is image page071.jpg
But I think you have all of rule 68
Interesting example on how corrections were done in the old days. But then I remember correcting maritime stuff (charts, almanacs) in the first decade of the current century.

I used to correct working documents in the late 1970's by the pasting in of inserts - a tedious job but one had to keep on top of it. I was given a Tanganika Railway rulebook when 222 Marylebone Road closed down (it was festering is some drawer modified in much the same way - but probably done in the African night - but with materially differing rules to apply to the colonial era)

We had a Regional Signals inspector who we reported to , and we given a thorough grilling by him weekly - a very decent chap who with his team passed his wisdom on in a very clear way during training - we had divisioinal cab passes so he asked us to ride in some DMU rear cabs on his behalf and report back any examples of signalmen putting back semaphores too quickly - we never spotted any , not that we bothered to look!) - the practical stuff I learned that fortnight stood me in good stead for a career. Standards were very high on the patch.

 

[edwin_m]

I used to correct working documents in the late 1970's by the pasting in of inserts - a tedious job but one had to keep on top of it.

Similarly for me 10 years or so later. I used to think that with all those people spending time updating, it would be far cheaper overall just to re-issue the affected pages. Maybe it was so people were more likely to remember what had changed?

 

[Gloster]

My recollection is that the replacement slips were either too wide, so had to be folded back and often ended up getting torn, or they were much longer than the original item and it was difficult not to cover over part of another one. The loose leaf was better, but still need a bit of care to avoid having odd pages in the wrong place.

 

[dk1]

I think you mean replacing after train has passed. Doesn’t really make much difference if it’s not busy.

 

[The Puddock]

I used to correct working documents in the late 1970's by the pasting in of inserts - a tedious job but one had to keep on top of it.

Similarly for me 10 years or so later. I used to think that with all those people spending time updating, it would be far cheaper overall just to re-issue the affected pages. Maybe it was so people were more likely to remember what had changed?

Pasting in or hand writing amendments to the Rule Book continued until December 2013, which is surprisingly late really. I always quite enjoyed doing it.

 

[infobleep]

Pasting in or hand writing amendments to the Rule Book continued until December 2013, which is surprisingly late really. I always quite enjoyed doing it.

I enjoy collecting the old rule books and comparing the changes pasted in. I don't work on the railways and unlikely to but just love reading the old rule books and appendices.

 

[norbitonflyer]

Think that may have been precisely the lesson to be learned from the Hull accident I mentioned earlier

Quite so. 1927. The points were locked by the signal being at clear, or by a locking bar whciuh detected a train approaching the points. Somebody replaced the signal protecting the points, and in the 1.9 seconds it took the train to reach the locking bar, somebody else setting up a route for another train pulled the wrong lever and moved those points.

 

[Ken H]

My recollection is that the replacement slips were either too wide, so had to be folded back and often ended up getting torn, or they were much longer than the original item and it was difficult not to cover over part of another one. The loose leaf was better, but still need a bit of care to avoid having odd pages in the wrong place.

The rule book I have is proving to be a right pain to scan. Ho hum

 

[DevonTrains]

I hope you savoured the heritage atmosphere - only a couple of weeks left now, (and just two days at Truro I believe).

I certainly did! Lostwithiel box goes next Monday! The lack of station announcements certainly helped with the atmosphere

 

[High Dyke]

Having caused a few 'signal reversions' over the years I tend to be a bit more careful.

Years ago, I was in a box with a trainee. His manager turned up on a visit and we both watched the trainee run the box. After a train had passed the manager and me kept looking at each other, then at the frame, then at the trainee. He finally puts the signals back to danger after receiving 'out of section' from the next box, some 5 minutes later. I commented "better late than.never." The manager noting that " at least you didn't put back in front."