Provisionaly authorized for prosecution - southeastern

[Samintrble]

On 16th oct, I was travelling from Ladywell station to London bridge on a season ticket from Lewisham to London terminals. I was stopped by a Revenue Protection officer and put under caution. He grilled me for 15 mins - Initially, I told him that I was not aware my ticket is valid only from Lewisham station and not from other stations of Lewisham Council. After his explanation, I understood that I was wrong and co-operated with him. He also did a search on my railcard and found that I had used the paper ticket for 5 days last week at London Terminals but never at Lewisham stations.
Under caution, he asked me a series of questions suggesting that I used the tickets to make return journeys from Ladywell to London Bridge for last 5 days. After the caution was over, he mentioned that I should now wait for a letter to be delivered to my address. I will need to pay a penalty fare using their online payment system. Instead of the fare notice, I received the attached letter
Actually, I had used the season ticket in the same route for 3 weeks but I didn't mention it as he never asked me that far.
My ticket was a yearly season paper ticket starting in Sept 2017 which I bought for £772.00.
On 14th Nov, I received the attached letter which I replied via First Class post with my explanation at the back (also attached).
I am in a very difficult situation. I will be eligible to apply for ILR in January but a court summons and criminal conviction will reduce my chances of getting ILR to zero!
I had booked flight tickets to attend my brother's wedding in another country in Dec 2017 and really don't want to miss. Mentioned it in the letter.

Now my question is what should be my next course of action?
1) Should I wait for Southeastern to reply or start
2) Draft another letter with your kind help - offer to pay money and request to postpone the case for at least 1 month?
3) Start speaking with solicitors?

 

[najaB]

I am in a very difficult situation. I will be eligible to apply for ILR in January but a court summons and criminal conviction will reduce my chances of getting ILR to zero!

First off, and most importantly - a conviction for a relatively minor fare evasion offence will have little impact on your application for ILR if it's the only negative factor.

As to the best course of action, your option #2 is the best course of action. Most Train Operating Companies (TOCs) are happy to settle cases without involving the Court, providing that the passenger demonstrates that they understand that they were in the wrong, appears to 'get the message' and seems unlikely to do it again.

 

[Puffing Devil]

Please take down the photo of the prosecution letter until you have blanked out the personal details. This is a very public forum!

 

[Samintrble]

Thank you Puffing Devil. I have edited the letter and uploaded.

 

[Samintrble]

Just had a call with Southeastern Penalty Fare team. They took my reference number and advised to call back end of this week to know if I will get an out of court settlement offer or a court summon.

The reply to their letter was sent on Sat,18th Nov with First Class post. Should I now wait for Southeastern to reply or send another apology letter with an offer to pay for their losses a.k.a out of court settlement?

 

[island]

I need more clarification here.

You say your “railcard” (which I take to mean your Oyster card) had been touched in and out at London terminals but not at Lewisham. But a season ticket from Lewisham to London Terminals is a paper ticket. Why were you using an Oyster card at all?

Why do you think a ticket to Lewisham station is valid at any other station in Lewisham borough?

 

[furlong]

Yes, precisely what ticket do you hold and in what form? What was its price? Interestingly it appears as if the route was valid on a Lewisham-London Terminals season ticket after privatisation (according to the original routeing guide) so it might be interesting seeing at what point it got withdrawn (assuming it has) and whether the necessary approval was obtained. (e.g. Lewisham-Ladywell-Beckenham Jn -various London Terminals)

 

[Samintrble]

I need more clarification here.

You say your “railcard” (which I take to mean your Oyster card) had been touched in and out at London terminals but not at Lewisham. But a season ticket from Lewisham to London Terminals is a paper ticket. Why were you using an Oyster card at all?

Why do you think a ticket to Lewisham station is valid at any other station in Lewisham borough?

Hi island, I used the paper ticket which came along with the season Rail Card (corrected my first post) and not an Oyster Card.
I know that I am stupid to think other stations in Lewisham are also in Zone 2. Ladywell is in Zone 3 which is written on the board. I realized later and co-operated with the Revenue Protection officer. I have made a mistake and I should pay for it

 

[Samintrble]

Yes, precisely what ticket do you hold and in what form? What was its price? Interestingly it appears as if the route was valid on a Lewisham-London Terminals season ticket after privatisation (according to the original routeing guide) so it might be interesting seeing at what point it got withdrawn (assuming it has) and whether the necessary approval was obtained. (e.g. Lewisham-Ladywell-Beckenham Jn -various London Terminals)

I had a yearly Travel card from Lewisham(Zone 2) to London Terminals (approx £760 starting from Sept 2017). The next day of getting caught, I have cancelled this season ticket and bought another monthly travel ticket from Catford Bridge(Zone 3) to London Terminals. Catford Bridge is just the next station after Ladywell.

 

[najaB]

Should I now wait for Southeastern to reply or send another apology letter with an offer to pay for their losses a.k.a out of court settlement?

You should wait. I know it's not easy when you've got this hanging over you but remember you are dealing with people and you don't want to come across as pushy or demanding.

 

[furlong]

Someone with a bit more time than I have might check the routeing guide to see when(if) it got withdrawn and open an FOI request to obtain the evidence that the DfT consulted and consented to the removal of the alternative routes. The OP could point out to the TOC that they have subsequently found that it was previously a permitted route and ask upon what date the route was formerly removed and request confirmation that the necessary consents were obtained.

 

[najaB]

Someone with a bit more time than I have might check the routeing guide to see when(if) it got withdrawn and open an FOI request to obtain the evidence that the DfT consulted and consented to the removal of the alternative routes. The OP could point out to the TOC that they have subsequently found that it was previously a permitted route and ask upon what date the route was formerly removed and request confirmation that the necessary consents were obtained.

While this is interesting in its own right, the fact is that it wasn't considered to be a valid route at the time that the OP made their journey. It's probably better to focus on the immediate matter at hand before embarking on what may turn out to be either a wild goose chase or a shopping trip for a can of worms.

 

[Samintrble]

Thank you najaB. I agree with you as I have already pleaded guilty with the Revenue Protection Officer and then in the reply to Southeastern Prosecutions Officer.
Update:
I spoke with the Penalty Fare department over the phone. The lady asked me to call again by end of the week to know if the Prosecution officer would like to offer out of court settlement or go ahead with the prosecution. Also spoke with a couple of lawyers who believe that this case can be settled out of court.
What do people in this forum think? Thanks in advance for your help!

 

[furlong]

That depends - if the paperwork was all in place, it gains nothing. But if there's a chance the paper trail isn't all in place, it might be something the company prefers not to have examined in court and so nudge them towards offering a settlement.

 

[najaB]

Also spoke with a couple of lawyers who believe that this case can be settled out of court.
What do people in this forum think? Thanks in advance for your help!

I'm reasonably confident that they will agree to settle the matter rather than prosecute. It's not unknown for TOCs to ask passengers to suggest a settlement amount - for this kind of issue, considering your cooperation and early admission of culpability a figure of around £150 plus fare would be typical.

 

[najaB]

That depends - if the paperwork was all in place, it gains nothing. But if there's a chance the paper trail isn't all in place, it might be something the company prefers not to have examined in court and so nudge them towards offering a settlement.

That is true, but it would likely take time (the OP mentioned that they want to resolve this expeditiously) , and if the paperwork is in order might well increase the likelihood that they would proceed with a prosecution against a 'troublemaker'.

Perhaps a viable course of action would be to pursue the question of the route's validity once the threat of prosecution has been removed?

 

[telstarbox]

It might not look good from Southeastern's point of view as Ladywell has no barriers and Lewisham does.

 

[Samintrble]

It might not look good from Southeastern's point of view as Ladywell has no barriers and Lewisham does.

I didn't get it. What will not look good?

 

[telstarbox]

It could be inferred from your journey history that you were trying to avoid the higher fare between Ladywell and London Terminals by using a Lewisham <> London Terminals ticket.

 

[Romilly]

Some of the journey planners, including the one on National Rail Enquiries, show Lewisham-Ladywell-London Bridge as a valid itinerary for a £6.10 Lewisham-London anytime day return, but only (so far as I can see) where the Ladywell-London Bridge leg does not go via Lewisham. This would suggest that the OP was doing nothing wrong if the OP was on a Ladywell-London Bridge train that did not go via Lewisham. On the other hand, Lewisham-Ladywell-London Bridge does not seem to be a mapped route (see routeing guide map BR or VL) for a Lewisham-London ticket. So perhaps it's within 3 miles of the shortest Lewisham-London Bridge route. If I get time, I will check.

So far as I can see, Lewisham-Ladywell-London Bridge is about 1.5 miles longer than Lewisham-London Bridge (Lewisham-St Johns is 0.5 miles, whilst Lewisham-Ladywell is 0.75 miles and Ladywell-St Johns is 1.25 miles, and St Johns-London Bridge is the same in either case, so the extra is [0.75 + 1.25] - 0.5 = 1.5).

 

[furlong]

Some of the journey planners, including the one on National Rail Enquiries, show Lewisham-Ladywell-London Bridge as a valid itinerary

Perhaps post a screenshot? This might be sufficient to show there is still a permitted route through Ladywell on a season ticket like there used to be and that any action taken against the OP might be defended.

 

[Haywain]

But a season ticket from Lewisham to London Terminals is a paper ticket.

A Travelcard for Zones 1 & 2 can also be a paper ticket, and will certainly not be valid for use at Ladywell. The question is which ticket, exactly, did the OP hold?

 

[Samintrble]

A Travelcard for Zones 1 & 2 can also be a paper ticket, and will certainly not be valid for use at Ladywell. The question is which ticket, exactly, did the OP hold?

I had a Season(paper) ticket from Lewisham to London Terminals.

 

[furlong]

A Travelcard for Zones 1 & 2 can also be a paper ticket, and will certainly not be valid for use at Ladywell. The question is which ticket, exactly, did the OP hold?

Annual Z1-2 costs a lot more than approximate figure mentioned.

 

[furlong]

Samintrble, what Romilly is suggesting is that there MIGHT after all still be a valid route from Lewisham to Ladywell to London Bridge. (I haven't checked this.) A season ticket is valid for unlimited journeys along the routes and doesn't have to be used end-to-end all the time, so you'd be able to mix-and-match two journeys to travel (London Bridge->) Ladywell->Lewisham and Lewisham ->London Bridge

 

[Samintrble]

Samintrble, what Romilly is suggesting is that there MIGHT after all still be a valid route from Lewisham to Ladywell to London Bridge. (I haven't checked this.) A season ticket is valid for unlimited journeys along the routes and doesn't have to be used end-to-end all the time, so you'd be able to mix-and-match two journeys to travel (London Bridge->) Ladywell->Lewisham and Lewisham ->London Bridge

Romilly & furlong thank you for checking this for me. I am still not clear how I can prove this to the SouthEastern ?

 

[furlong]

Yes, nationalrail seems to think it's valid e.g. Lewisham->Ladywell->Catford Bridge; Catford -> Peckham Rye; Peckham Rye-> Victoria
The routeing guide needs checking properly, but it's possible that your season ticket was valid after all for the journey you made, allbeit somewhat unconventionally.

Romilly & furlong thank you for checking this for me. I am still not clear how I can prove this to the SouthEastern ?

Go to nationalrail.co.uk and search for 'Lewisham to London Victoria via Catford' and see that it will sell you the same anytime day single that is the basis upon which your season ticket was calculated.
But wait a bit for some more people on here to check this more thoroughly.

 

[furlong]

To repeat one more question - did the actual train you used on the day stop at Lewisham or not?

 

[furlong]

I'm also seeing routes in the journey planners Lewisham->Ladywell; then Ladywell (bypass Lewisham) to London Bridge.

 

[Samintrble]

To repeat one more question - did the actual train you used on the day stop at Lewisham or not?

Hi furlong, that particular train didnt stopped at Lewisham.