Provisional Prosecution - Southeastern

[zik London]

Hello Everyone,

I need your help with this. I traveled from Catford Bridge to Ladywell ( one stop ) and I tapped my phone on the reader to use my android pay and ran for the train( not knowing it was the wrong train because i wanted to go Lewisham instead and not knowing my phone didnt tap in as i had my headphones in so i didnt hear it beep).

I got to Catford Bridge and realized I had got on the wrong train. So i sat down and started to plan my journey back when an inspector approached me and asked for my ticket. And i brought out my phone to tap it and my reception was off meaning the android pay wasn't working. ( but at the time i didn't know this ) i just thought the contactless wasn't working.

So i explained this to him and he pulled me to the side and said I need to pay a £20 fine. I had no cash on me and he tried my contactless and it didn't work again.

He went on to take my details and this is where the trouble started. He asked for my name and I gave him the short version of my name. Being Nigerian we have very long names so we abbreviate them. He first of all said someone else had used that name and i denied it cause i didnt know who used the name.

He also said the person matched my description and he showed me his ipad and he it said (black/brown). Now i did feel like i was racially profiled. because Its not like black people cant have the same name as other black people. I felt a bit a hurt by that buy i left it and kept pleading my case

I then gave him my full name and my old (parents ) address. where my name is still registered. he asked for my mothers name and also he asked me about my inlaws address cause my name was on that too. I gave him all the details.

And he gave me an MG11 and a ticket to go back to Lewisham. because that was my main destination in the first place. but at this time my anxiety had kicked in and i was so nervous and angry i walked out the station.

Today i received a letter of provisional prosecution and I do not know what to do. I am a design director that works with young people so a criminal record would literally ruin my career.

Please help

 

[Fawkes Cat]

There's a couple of issues here - and it's probably important to keep them separate.

1) Does the letter say what law the railway are thinking about prosecuting you under? Usually it will be either the Regulation of Railways Act (often called RoRA for short), or the railway bylaws. The reason why this can matter is that a successful RoRA prosecution will show up on a DBS check, but a successful bylaw prosecution won't.
2) The inspector's approach sounds less than professional. But given the facts that you confirm, it seems to me that the company may have grounds to prosecute anyhow. So while you may want to complain to the company about the inspector's approach, don't expect that will make the threat of prosecution go away.

 

[zik London]

There's a couple of issues here - and it's probably important to keep them separate.

1) Does the letter say what law the railway are thinking about prosecuting you under? Usually it will be either the Regulation of Railways Act (often called RoRA for short), or the railway bylaws. The reason why this can matter is that a successful RoRA prosecution will show up on a DBS check, but a successful bylaw prosecution won't.
2) The inspector's approach sounds less than professional. But given the facts that you confirm, it seems to me that the company may have grounds to prosecute anyhow. So while you may want to complain to the company about the inspector's approach, don't expect that will make the threat of prosecution go away.

Thank you very much for replying. at the moment it's a letter asking me to comment about what happened on the day. I don't even plan to complain about the inspector cause that could make them worse. I work in a church and work with a lot of young kids. Having a criminal conviction could lead to me losing my job.

 

[Fawkes Cat]

OK.

1) As the railway have given you the opportunity to tell your side of the story, take it. That means telling them more or less what you said in your first post. Explain why you didn't pay the penalty fare (the £20 'fine') there and then (as I understand you, you did think that you had the means to pay until you discovered you didn't have a signal for your phone). Confirm that if they offer an opportunity to settle out of court, you will be happy to take it (there are two offers that the railway could make BUT ARE UNDER NO OBLIGATION TO DO SO: the £20 penalty fare, or the costs they have incurred so far in this case: the costs might be a couple of hundred pounds). I'm sure that you will be entirely honest but for the benefit of anyone else who finds this thread and is thinking of trying it on: don't lie. If the railway thinks your story isn't true they will try to pick holes in it - and it is much easier to keep a true story consistent. As I said before, keep the matter of what the inspector said to you separate. Write as clearly, briefly and courteously as you can (a human being will read your letter, so it's good to make it easy for them to agree with you).
2) Try not to worry too much about your job prospects: the experience on this forum is that many (even most) employers aren't too worried about one minor conviction - they are much more likely to be concerned about a pattern of repeated offending, or dishonesty as shown by concealing an offence. So it may well be a good idea to share your worries with your manager at work (so you are being open and honest) - and if you do later want to move to another job (and you have been convicted), make sure that if the new employer asks about convictions then you tell them.

 

[_toommm_]

OK.

1) As the railway have given you the opportunity to tell your side of the story, take it. That means telling them more or less what you said in your first post. Explain why you didn't pay the penalty fare (the £20 'fine') there and then (as I understand you, you did think that you had the means to pay until you discovered you didn't have a signal for your phone). Confirm that if they offer an opportunity to settle out of court, you will be happy to take it (there are two offers that the railway could make BUT ARE UNDER NO OBLIGATION TO DO SO: the £20 penalty fare, or the costs they have incurred so far in this case: the costs might be a couple of hundred pounds). I'm sure that you will be entirely honest but for the benefit of anyone else who finds this thread and is thinking of trying it on: don't lie. If the railway thinks your story isn't true they will try to pick holes in it - and it is much easier to keep a true story consistent. As I said before, keep the matter of what the inspector said to you separate. Write as clearly, briefly and courteously as you can (a human being will read your letter, so it's good to make it easy for them to agree with you).
2) Try not to worry too much about your job prospects: the experience on this forum is that many (even most) employers aren't too worried about one minor conviction - they are much more likely to be concerned about a pattern of repeated offending, or dishonesty as shown by concealing an offence. So it may well be a good idea to share your worries with your manager at work (so you are being open and honest) - and if you do later want to move to another job (and you have been convicted), make sure that if the new employer asks about convictions then you tell them.

Android Pay (now Google Pay) definitely works offline. It sends a one-time use token to the card reader, with the card reader sending that off to the bank to take the money out. Any sort of over-the-air communication is done via the reader, as your phone stores your encrypted card details and generates that single use token on the spot every time

 

[6Gman]

OK.

1) As the railway have given you the opportunity to tell your side of the story, take it. That means telling them more or less what you said in your first post. Explain why you didn't pay the penalty fare (the £20 'fine') there and then (as I understand you, you did think that you had the means to pay until you discovered you didn't have a signal for your phone). Confirm that if they offer an opportunity to settle out of court, you will be happy to take it (there are two offers that the railway could make BUT ARE UNDER NO OBLIGATION TO DO SO: the £20 penalty fare, or the costs they have incurred so far in this case: the costs might be a couple of hundred pounds).

Fawkes' advice is sound, but your reply needs to definitely be less than what you put in your first post! Explain that:

You thought you had tapped in successfully;
You realised you had then caught the wrong train;
When the RPI approached you it became clear that you hadn't tapped in successfully, and you were happy to accept the Penalty Fare for your error - but, for whatever reason, the payment could not be made there and then;
Stress that you would like to settle the matter by paying the fare due and/or the penalty fare plus a contribution to their costs.

The stuff about names, addresses, and the attitude of the RPI are irrelevant to the key issue.

Good luck! (And, in future, take your earphones out to check you get a bleep!)

 

[Nick66]

Android Pay (now Google Pay) definitely works offline. It sends a one-time use token to the card reader, with the card reader sending that off to the bank to take the money out. Any sort of over-the-air communication is done via the reader, as your phone stores your encrypted card details and generates that single use token on the spot every time

That’s what I thought. Maybe it was the inspector’s device that couldn’t get a signal. Does that make any difference? The OP had the means to pay, the RPI didn’t have the means to accept it.

 

[zik London]

Thanks for all the replies. I sent off my letter yesterday. Apologising for my actions. I didnt speak about anything bad that the inspector did. I just said I was sorry a lot and begged them to settle out of court.

 

[zik London]

Fawkes' advice is sound, but your reply needs to definitely be less than what you put in your first post! Explain that:

You thought you had tapped in successfully;
You realised you had then caught the wrong train;
When the RPI approached you it became clear that you hadn't tapped in successfully, and you were happy to accept the Penalty Fare for your error - but, for whatever reason, the payment could not be made there and then;
Stress that you would like to settle the matter by paying the fare due and/or the penalty fare plus a contribution to their costs.

The stuff about names, addresses, and the attitude of the RPI are irrelevant to the key issue.

Good luck! (And, in future, take your earphones out to check you get a bleep!)

Thank you so much!! This is exactly what I did. I said I am ready to cover all cost incured and even the fine. Just dont want to go to court. Fingers Crossed they let me off.

 

[zik London]

Android Pay (now Google Pay) definitely works offline. It sends a one-time use token to the card reader, with the card reader sending that off to the bank to take the money out. Any sort of over-the-air communication is done via the reader, as your phone stores your encrypted card details and generates that single use token on the spot every time

I think it did not connect properly. But all i can do now is wait for their reply. Thank you for the advice.

 

[island]

I'm sorry, but this doesn't add up. Android Pay does not require your phone to have signal to use. And why didn't you offer to pay the Penalty Fare using a credit or debit card?

That aside, a criminal record for fare evasion is most unlikely to "literally ruin your career", unless you decided to conceal it.

 

[James_Pedrick]

And why didn't you offer to pay the Penalty Fare using a credit or debit card?

Quite possible with android pay or whatever its called this week, that they did not have their credit or debit card on them. After all, how often do people go out with multiple methods of payment on them

 

[najaB]

After all, how often do people go out with multiple methods of payment on them

Somewhat surprisingly, I usually have both my phone and my wallet with me when I'm out and about.

 

[matt_world2004]

Good luck! (And, in future, take your earphones out to check you get a bleep!)

With Android pay you do not even need to that it gives a clear visual indication that you have touched in . it then shows you the tfl logo on a map where you touched in. I believe it doesnt even need the nfc on to be inspected as the app will show you that you have touched in.

 

[island]

Quite possible with android pay or whatever its called this week, that they did not have their credit or debit card on them. After all, how often do people go out with multiple methods of payment on them

Almost all the time, in my experience. Particularly when one of the methods, such as Google Pay, is not universally accepted.

 

[zik London]

With Android pay you do not even need to that it gives a clear visual indication that you have touched in . it then shows you the tfl logo on a map where you touched in. I believe it doesnt even need the nfc on to be inspected as the app will show you that you have touched in.

what happened was my airplane mode was on during all of this but i didnt notice. and it also switched of my NFC to save battery hence why all this has happened.

 

[zik London]

Somewhat surprisingly, I usually have both my phone and my wallet with me when I'm out and about.

I did not have my wallet with me only my phone. Plus having looked at the fares now it was just a 2.50 journey .. I had at least 5 pounds on that account lol.

 

[najaB]

I did not have my wallet with me only my phone.

You're a braver person than I. There is no way I would depend on Google Pay as my one and only payment method.

 

[MikeWh]

You're a braver person than I. There is no way I would depend on Google Pay as my one and only payment method.

Leaving aside whatever else a person might need funds for on a day out (if indeed they do), when it comes to the travel part TfL are most insistant: You must use the same card/device for every touch or you will not be able to rely on capping to limit your charges.