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Providing better connections for Leeds

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Bigman

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I have always wondered why Leeds is so poorly connected to the major cities of the UK, apart from the M62 corridor. Leeds is the 4th largest city in the UK, and yet has only 2 trains an hour to London, 1 an hour to Birmingham and only 1 every 2 hours to Glasgow. Flights to Glasgow ended a few years ago so that hasn’t helped. There is nothing to the South Coast at all.

Could the Cross Country timetables be changed so that the current Newcastle – Reading/Southampton operate via Leeds? This would give us 2 trains an hour to Birmingham as well as providing services to cities in the South.

Also, could Transpennine operate a Leeds – Carlisle – Glasgow service? TPE already work through to Glasgow/Edinburgh from NW cities, so could handing the S&C over to TPE be possible?
 
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Iskra

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I disagree. Leeds has excellent connections.

A 3rd London service per hour was operating, but has sensibly been withdrawn. It was introduced under VTEC.

I agree a second Birmingham service would be beneficial, but Leeds does at least tend to get the HST’s or double voyagers that provide higher capacity. Hopefully when the 221/222’s are released this can be improved.

Mentioning only 1tph to Glasgow is a bit disingenuous, as Leeds has a good service to Edinburgh where fast, frequent connections to Glasgow are available. There are even more opportunities if you change at York or Newcastle off TPE. Alternatively you can travel via the Settle and Carlisle. I would like to see Leeds get a direct Glasgow service on that route, but it’s not a priority

I often suggest XC should run entirely via Leeds but there are many counter arguments and it’s a well discussed topic.

On the whole Leeds is very well linked, I feel.
 

Ianno87

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Could the Cross Country timetables be changed so that the current Newcastle – Reading/Southampton operate via Leeds? This would give us 2 trains an hour to Birmingham as well as providing services to cities in the South.

Been looked at and no capacity. Plus it extends the journey time for everybody on that train doing York/Newcastle-Sheffield/Birmingham etc.

A 3rd London service per hour was operating, but has sensibly been withdrawn. It was introduced under VTEC.

Don't think there ever has been 3tph to London.

I agree a second Birmingham service would be beneficial, but Leeds does at least tend to get the HST’s or double voyagers that provide higher capacity. Hopefully when the 221/222’s are released this can be improved.

HS2 Eastern Leg (if it gets built) will transform Leeds-Birmingham journeys compared to today.
 

Iskra

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VTEC definitely at least proposed 3tph Leeds-London. I thought they brought it in, but found it unworkable then ran the timetable with planned cancellations for sometime and this was the crux of them handing back the franchise on the grounds the infrastructure wasn’t up to the task.

There are/were of course 3tph in the mornings with the additional West Riding Limited and EMR HST’s on top of the base timetable ;)
 

Bigman

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Thanks for the responses. Very informative. It's a shame we will have to wait for 20 years to get a decent service to Birmingham.
 

Iskra

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Thanks for the responses. Very informative. It's a shame we will have to wait for 20 years to get a decent service to Birmingham.
Personally I think it will improve once new stock arrives to release Avanti 221’s and MML 222’s, but that’s mere speculation at this point and it might only be longer trains rather than an increase in frequency.
 

Bigman

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Looks like we may not be getting HS2 into Leeds at all, so maybe Leeds to Birmingham would need to be improved by other means.
 

DB

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I generally agree with the points that overall Leeds has a good service.

The only major issue is one train an hour on XC isn't enough going south - it's not just Birmingham but also the places on the way, particularly Sheffield: there needs to be at least half-hourly fast services between Leeds and Sheffield - even the Northern "Express" service (when it's running) is a lot slower than XC, with three intermediate stops rather than the one on XC. And a 2-car 158 isn't really adequate either.

Services on the TPE route are very frequent, and the eletrified lines to the north are good too. 2tph to London is enough at most times of day, given that they are 9 or 10 car trains.
 

Iskra

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I generally agree with the points that overall Leeds has a good service.

The only major issue is one train an hour on XC isn't enough going south - it's not just Birmingham but also the places on the way, particularly Sheffield: there needs to be at least half-hourly fast services between Leeds and Sheffield - even the Northern "Express" service (when it's running) is a lot slower than XC, with three intermediate stops rather than the one on XC. And a 2-car 158 isn't really adequate either.

Services on the TPE route are very frequent, and the eletrified lines to the north are good too. 2tph to London is enough at most times of day, given that they are 9 or 10 car trains.
Totally agree about the need for a second, decent-length express service between Leeds and Sheffield. My worry would be that if it ever comes, that it would be at the expense of the current Semi-Fast, whereas I believe it is needed as well as.

A second Northern semi-fast is supposed to be coming via Wakefield Westgate which would hopefully be faster, but again it could only be two carriages as it is Northern operated and that doesn't cut it.
 

YorksLad12

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I have always wondered why Leeds is so poorly connected to the major cities of the UK, apart from the M62 corridor. Leeds is the 4th largest city in the UK, and yet has only 2 trains an hour to London, 1 an hour to Birmingham and only 1 every 2 hours to Glasgow. Flights to Glasgow ended a few years ago so that hasn’t helped. There is nothing to the South Coast at all.

Could the Cross Country timetables be changed so that the current Newcastle – Reading/Southampton operate via Leeds? This would give us 2 trains an hour to Birmingham as well as providing services to cities in the South.

Also, could Transpennine operate a Leeds – Carlisle – Glasgow service? TPE already work through to Glasgow/Edinburgh from NW cities, so could handing the S&C over to TPE be possible?

We don't do so badly (I speak as a native here - where would you want to go that's better?) but some of those things have been tried before.

Northern had a Leeds - Carlisle (crew change) - Glasgow service which didn't last.
LNER will be introducing a third London train every two hours from Harrogate (not via Wakefield) in the delayed timetable recast (December 2021 or May 2022, I think).
CrossCountry wanted to run an additional north-east to south-west service via Leeds (or possible reroute the existing service that runs via Doncaster) but that path was taken by TPE.

If there were more paths east of Leeds, or if TPE was cut back then an additional service to Birmingham and on to Wales (instead of the south west) might work.
 

Iskra

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We don't do so badly (I speak as a native here - where would you want to go that's better?) but some of those things have been tried before.

Northern had a Leeds - Carlisle (crew change) - Glasgow service which didn't last.
LNER will be introducing a third London train every two hours from Harrogate (not via Wakefield) in the delayed timetable recast (December 2021 or May 2022, I think).
CrossCountry wanted to run an additional north-east to south-west service via Leeds (or possible reroute the existing service that runs via Doncaster) but that path was taken by TPE.

If there were more paths east of Leeds, or if TPE was cut back then an additional service to Birmingham and on to Wales (instead of the south west) might work.
The Arriva Train Northern service 'didn't last,' because the then Strategic Rail Authority ordered it removed, presumably at the behest of Virgin, rather than it not being a busy or useful service.

I would agree that South Wales is the only real gap that Leeds might justify a service to. Maybe another fast service to Hull per hour at a push.
 

xotGD

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Leeds needs services to a few places closer to home: Ripon, Otley, The Airport, etc.
 

tbtc

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Leeds has an amazing frequency to some places.

(using timetables prior to Covid) there are seven an hour on the direct York line (i.e. ignoring the services the long way round via Knaresborough), three per hour to Newcastle, up to two per hour to Edinburgh, four per hour to Harrogate, six per hour to Bradford, five per hour to Manchester (i.e. ignoring the long way round via the Calder Valley), around eight an hour to Wakefield and generally three per hour to the ECML at Doncaster. That's a pretty good "reach" IMHO.

The services to Hull/ Preston/ Lancaster/ Liverpool/ London all seem pretty reasonable IMHO. The London service is scheduled to be increased, the Hull service was recently doubled.

The main problem is the XC service to Sheffield/ Birmingham. I'm not fussed about services to places south of Birmingham - IMHO the demand for direct journeys is going to be so small that it doesn't matter too much whether it's towards Bristol or Reading (but, at least Bristol is fastest via XC, whereas a direct Reading service may still be slower than changing at London).

HS2 was intended to solve the Leeds - Birmingham issue (long trains with a journey time of one hour, rather than cramming onto a Voyager for two hours that's already full of people from Glasgow/ Edinburgh/ Newcastle heading to Sheffield/ Birmingham etc) - however in the "short" term the solution was meant to be a two coach 195 on ah hourly (Manchester Airport) Bradford - Leeds - Westgate - Sheffield - Nottingham service. Not great, but a small step in the right direction.

For me, the options are:

  • Divert the "via Doncaster" XC services via Leeds instead. Would mean a twenty minute penalty for longer distance passengers, would remove much of the Doncaster - York services on the ECML (since a lot of the LNER Scottish services don't stop at Donny), would struggle to find a path on top of the existing seven trains per hour through Garforth, would leave Doncaster without a service south of Sheffield (and whilst Doncaster isn't enormous, it is a railhead for Humberside).
  • Chop the daytime service at Leeds (so that it becomes a Leeds - Birmingham - Bristol - Beyond service). Use the units spared to double up the Leeds - Bristol section, maybe still run some token services to Edinburgh like in BR days? There are two TPE services per hour from Leeds to Newcastle (some of which serve Edinburgh), but this would push the longer distance XC passengers onto the "via Doncaster" service to ensure that Leeds passengers board an empty train. There's an argument that the ECML north of York is too busy, so taking a short Voyager off the tracks would still leave plenty of seats on the many 800/801/802s on that stretch of line
  • Extend the half hourly EMR St Pancras services beyond Sheffield to Leeds, maybe replacing the Northern "semi fasts"? That would improve capacity from Leeds to the East Midlands and improve capacity on the busy Sheffield section but I don't think the platforms at Meadowhall could accommodate a single 810 yet alone a doubled one (and the Meadowhall stop is very important one on the current Barnsley services).
  • Getting into the world of fantasy, extend the half hourly Leeds - Vic - Pic - Manchester Airport service to Crewe (in lieu of the Liverpool - Manchester - Crewe service), which would provide Leeds with better links to the WCML. I'd suggest bi-modes for XC to permit them to extend their half hourly Manchester - Birmingham services to start at Leeds via Huddersfield, but I'm waiting on Santa to delivery me that box of Crayola that I put on the list that went up the chimney and I'm saving the meagre allocation of crayons that I currently have, so I'm not willing to waste them on such a proposal! :lol:
^^ none of these are really ideal - Maybe as a modest proposal you could extend one of the EMR services per hour to Leeds in the path that the Northern Connect service was going to take (i.e. Westgate rather than Kirkgate)? So Leeds would have a half hourly Derby service (when combined with existing XC), as well as hourly to Leicester?

Or wire up the twenty something miles from Moorthorpe and Doncaster to Sheffield, allowing the Dearne Valley stopper to be sped up and run by longer trains (as well as freeing up a few DMUs on the Conisborough corridor) - if a 100mph EMU saved just a few minutes on the Dearne Valley service then it might soak up sufficient passengers to free up some more seats on the XC service for longer distance passengers.

The other place that I think gets a raw deal from Leeds is the "lower" Aire Valley towards Castleford/ Pontefract. Whilst the "upper" Aire Valley has had nice modern EMUs towards Shipley/ Keighley/ Skipton for around twenty years, the Leeds - Castleford - Pontefract service is only an hourly 150 (admittedly this is a step up from an hourly Pacer, but it feels like a route ripe for some kind of transformational investment - prime commuter distance from the regional capital, a lot of new housing down that way. Not as sexy as fast trains to places hundreds of miles away, but I think that you could easily fill a couple of four coach EMUs each hour on that corridor after a year or two of operation.

As for Glasgow... if there really is such significant demand from Leeds to Glasgow then presumably we wouldn't need to have such cheap "via Appleby" fares to keep passenger numbers on the S&C higher than they'd otherwise be. You could have an hourly Leeds - Glasgow train at just the cost of one additional unit, but extending the current XC services that terminate at Waverley through to Clydeside (i.e. making the XC service through Motherwell hourly). The problem with Leeds to Glasgow is that (a) the direct route has nowhere large as an intermediate station and that (b) it's a scenic line through the middle of nowhere so will always feature highly in a list of routes that enthusiasts want to throw resources at.
 

Bigman

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So if the issue of re-routeing a second XC via Leeds instead on Doncaster is down to TPE capacity between Leeds and York, would diverting a TPE via Castleford and Wakefield not release a path?
 

Neptune

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Whilst nothing is perfect Leeds services don’t do too badly.

The biggest issue is east of Leeds as has been mentioned before.

Now what of the following crayoned idea:-

- Move the Leeds - York stopper to go via Castleford and Sherburn. Before anyone mentions platform 17 it could be timed to be in Leeds station between the other via Cas stoppers.

- The Halifax - Hull stopper could remain as is therefore maintaining intermediate journeys between local stations.

- Stop each of the 4 TPE’s to York each hour at one intermediate station to maintain their links to York (ie stop the Newcastle at Cross Gates, Edinburgh at Garforth, Scarborough at East Garforth & Middlesbrough at Micklefield).

- The Blackpool - York would still stop at Church Fenton and then Thorpe Park when it opens.

- XC to still go fast.

- The only other service is the Manchester - Hull TPE running fast to Selby.

- This would free up a path for an additional service for whatever is required (XC, LNER whatever).

The above costs little additional time to each service, opens up new journey opportunities (Castleford - York, Sherburn - Leeds). More importantly short term it costs less than infrastructure costs such as electrification, quadrupling the line etc...

It’ll probably get ripped apart but it is a simple idea to make immediate improvements and releases a path.
 

Iskra

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Whilst nothing is perfect Leeds services don’t do too badly.

The biggest issue is east of Leeds as has been mentioned before.

Now what of the following crayoned idea:-

- Move the Leeds - York stopper to go via Castleford and Sherburn. Before anyone mentions platform 17 it could be timed to be in Leeds station between the other via Cas stoppers.

- The Halifax - Hull stopper could remain as is therefore maintaining intermediate journeys between local stations.

- Stop each of the 4 TPE’s to York each hour at one intermediate station to maintain their links to York (ie stop the Newcastle at Cross Gates, Edinburgh at Garforth, Scarborough at East Garforth & Middlesbrough at Micklefield).

- The Blackpool - York would still stop at Church Fenton and then Thorpe Park when it opens.

- XC to still go fast.

- The only other service is the Manchester - Hull TPE running fast to Selby.

- This would free up a path for an additional service for whatever is required (XC, LNER whatever).

The above costs little additional time to each service, opens up new journey opportunities (Castleford - York, Sherburn - Leeds). More importantly short term it costs less than infrastructure costs such as electrification, quadrupling the line etc...

It’ll probably get ripped apart but it is a simple idea to make immediate improvements and releases a path.
As a user of the current Leeds-Castleford-Chapeltown-Sheffield service I’d support that as it would allow my service to drop the Castleford detour, significantly improving the speed and attractiveness of the service.
 

Neptune

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As a user of the current Leeds-Castleford-Chapeltown-Sheffield service I’d support that as it would allow my service to drop the Castleford detour, significantly improving the speed and attractiveness of the service.
That is a possibility. I was considering the stopper to still run via Cas but let‘s look at another scenario on that route.

- As was planned the Leeds - Nottingham service to run on the Dearne Valley to Sheffield so let’s surmise that it will eventually happen thereby creating a second proper express Leeds - Sheffield (3 cars minimum please).
- Leeds - Lincoln to run as now (express to Sheffield via BNY).
- Leeds - Knottingley via Cas can run as is now (there’s also an hourly service Leeds - Knottingley via Wakefield remember).
- Leeds - York via Cas as mentioned above.
- Leeds - Sheffield stopper missing out Castleford which runs in place of the 2nd fast service at a time cost due to 6 additional station calls over the current express although the standing time on the expresses gets sucked out of the service.
- Huddersfield - Castleford extended to Leeds to improve the service between Normanton and Leeds.

All of this may require the timetable to be re-mapped but that doesn’t make it impossible with proper planning.
 

YorksLad12

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  • Chop the daytime service at Leeds (so that it becomes a Leeds - Birmingham - Bristol - Beyond service). Use the units spared to double up the Leeds - Bristol section, maybe still run some token services to Edinburgh like in BR days? There are two TPE services per hour from Leeds to Newcastle (some of which serve Edinburgh), but this would push the longer distance XC passengers onto the "via Doncaster" service to ensure that Leeds passengers board an empty train. There's an argument that the ECML north of York is too busy, so taking a short Voyager off the tracks would still leave plenty of seats on the many 800/801/802s on that stretch of line

Minor issue might be with platform availability for the service to terminate at Leeds. If it was retimed it could, in theory, arrive at and depart from P8 in between London trains. But I like this idea, and it frees a path in each direction east of Leeds.

  • Extend the half hourly EMR St Pancras services beyond Sheffield to Leeds, maybe replacing the Northern "semi fasts"? That would improve capacity from Leeds to the East Midlands and improve capacity on the busy Sheffield section but I don't think the platforms at Meadowhall could accommodate a single 810 yet alone a doubled one (and the Meadowhall stop is very important one on the current Barnsley services).

You know, I never once thought about extending an EMR service to replace the proposed faster Northern service via Rotherham - thanks for that idea! That doesn't speed up journeys from Leeds to Nottingham necessarily, but you wouldn't have platform length issues at Westgate and Leeds - the only two stops on that route. The semi-fasts would stay as they provide Leeds-Barnsley-Lincoln and Leeds-Barnsley-Nottingham opportunities.

The other place that I think gets a raw deal from Leeds is the "lower" Aire Valley towards Castleford/ Pontefract. Whilst the "upper" Aire Valley has had nice modern EMUs towards Shipley/ Keighley/ Skipton for around twenty years, the Leeds - Castleford - Pontefract service is only an hourly 150 (admittedly this is a step up from an hourly Pacer, but it feels like a route ripe for some kind of transformational investment - prime commuter distance from the regional capital, a lot of new housing down that way. Not as sexy as fast trains to places hundreds of miles away, but I think that you could easily fill a couple of four coach EMUs each hour on that corridor after a year or two of operation.

As a user of the current Leeds-Castleford-Chapeltown-Sheffield service I’d support that as it would allow my service to drop the Castleford detour, significantly improving the speed and attractiveness of the service.

Think we're all in agreement here. Didn't we come up with a suggestion in the Hallam Line thread, about running the stopper not via Castleford, and fiddling around with the other services to maintain 2ph Leeds-Castleford and 2ph Wakefield-Normanton-Castleford?
 
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