Prosecution without being stopped

[dansimmons]

last week I made a few back and forth journeys between two stations without ticket barriers without tapping in or out, and I was not stopped at all

I have genuinely done this four or five times And would put the total amount avoided at about £30

this week I have noticed police and enforcement at my local station two days in a row, with at least four people there each time

Is it possible they are looking for me, or that I could be prosecuted without actually being stopped for evading the fare.

i have slipped past both times without being stopped by anyone and obviously i am tapping in now

 

[AlterEgo]

How would they know they were “looking for you” if you had not even tapped at all and left no trace?

The best way not to get paranoid about this sort of thing is to pay your fare.

 

[dansimmons]

How would they know they were “looking for you” if you had not even tapped at all and left no trace?

The best way not to get paranoid about this sort of thing is to pay your fare.

I don’t, just thought it suspicious that after I did it suddenly my local station has enforcement. I’ve lived there for a year and had only seen them once before, now twice in two days. Assume if they were I’d have been spotted on CCTV. Not defending what I did.

 

[jon0844]

I don’t, just thought it suspicious that after I did it suddenly my local station has enforcement. I’ve lived there for a year and had only seen them once before, now twice in two days. Assume if they were I’d have been spotted on CCTV. Not defending what I did.

I would say that, yes, they are looking out for you. As well as anyone else in a similar position. As said above, if you don't want them to find you, buy the right ticket/fare.

 

[dansimmons]

I would say that, yes, they are looking out for you. As well as anyone else in a similar position. As said above, if you don't want them to find you, buy the right ticket/fare.

Would someone have picked up on the CCTV that I hadn’t tapped in/out? Surely if I wasn’t stopped/questioned, they can’t discount that I had bought an e-ticket on trainline, or that I had a season ticket. Can I be prosecuted without actually being stopped?

For clarity they are both fairly busy stations on GTR network in North London, so it’s common for people to pass through without tapping if they have paper tickets

 

[AlterEgo]

They can’t prosecute you for railway specific ticketing offences if they don’t stop you and ask you to show your ticket.

 

[dansimmons]

They can’t prosecute you for railway specific ticketing offences if they don’t stop you and ask you to show your ticket.

Thanks

So if they stop me, and I give them the card I tapped in on and it returned all ok, then they couldn’t bring up the historic journeys I had evaded on (assuming they know about them, and they know it was me)?

I’m going to a different place this week which has barriers so obviously I am paying (which I normally do, last week things were tight and the chance was there so I took it. As mentioned the total if I am caught would be £30 to pay back)

 

[Skimpot flyer]

Thanks

So if they stop me, and I give them the card I tapped in on and it returned all ok, then they couldn’t bring up the historic journeys I had evaded on (assuming they know about them, and they know it was me)?

I’m going to a different place this week which has barriers so obviously I am paying (which I normally do, last week things were tight and the chance was there so I took it. As mentioned the total if I am caught would be £30 to pay back)

The fares avoided would be 4 anytime singles in each direction, so 8 full-rate singles with no discounts

 

[Alpine Rider]

Hmm - well maybe it is not entirely a coincidence.

Since way back in the 60s Moore's law has continued to make computers double in performance and halve in price every 18 months.
In the past you might have been right to assume you would never be spotted in among the vast number of daily travellers. That is no longer a safe assumption.

Even with the gates open those CCTV cameras will have been live and you image captured at entry and exit stations. Likewise if you carry a mobile device it is constantly connecting to cell towers and leaving a trail of digital footprints. If you connect using the "free wifi" - guess what, that too creates a data trail of where you were, and your progress through the network - and of course anyone connecting to wifi provided by the railway means the data is potentially available to Revenue protection teams.

The arrival of AI marks a huge step change in the potential to find a needle in a haystack. Indeed for less than the cost of employing an extra Revenue Protection Officer computers can now be used to wade through masses of data not just from the CCTV images using pattern matching, but combining it with ticketing sales data and wifi and potentially cell connections data to quickly identify areas where it makes sense to deploy RPO teams.

The short message is always buy the correct ticket or it is just a matter of time before you WILL be caught.

 

[dontteleport]

So if they stop me, and I give them the card I tapped in on and it returned all ok, then they couldn’t bring up the historic journeys I had evaded on (assuming they know about them, and they know it was me)?

You'd be surprised how little CCTV actually gets used as evidence in fare evasion cases. It's highly unlikely they'd take any retroactive action without you ever having actually been "caught" either in person or through a digital/financial footprint IMO.

Not guaranteeing it or claiming expert knowledge, but I'd have that it's highly unlikely the TOC is aware you specifically are fare evading with what you've described. However, they do analyse trends in evasion through various means and target stations/routes on this basis, at least at the major TOCs. I'd STRONGLY advise always paying upfront (as always) in future as it looks like revenue are onto whatever patch of network you're hopping around in. A major station on the south coast is a current target for this type of 'crackdown' and let me tell you, there's an army of them (+ a couple BTP) nearly every morning!

 

[signed]

Hmm - well maybe it is not entirely a coincidence.

Since way back in the 60s Moore's law has continued to make computers double in performance and halve in price every 18 months.
In the past you might have been right to assume you would never be spotted in among the vast number of daily travellers. That is no longer a safe assumption.

Even with the gates open those CCTV cameras will have been live and you image captured at entry and exit stations. Likewise if you carry a mobile device it is constantly connecting to cell towers and leaving a trail of digital footprints. If you connect using the "free wifi" - guess what, that too creates a data trail of where you were, and your progress through the network - and of course anyone connecting to wifi provided by the railway means the data is potentially available to Revenue protection teams.

Much of the cell data will never be accessible to anyone else than a police investigator conducting an active investigation

A MAC address (which is most of the time the only thing a WIFI access point sees and saves about a device) is meaningless now that any device generate a different one for every network they connect to.

The arrival of AI marks a huge step change in the potential to find a needle in a haystack

Doubtful, automatic facial recognition is a legal minefield that any government that is not the Chinese are still to use. And apart from predicting for trends, it has no application

 

[Haywain]

automatic facial recognition is a legal minefield that any government that is not the Chinese are still to use.

Facial recognition is already being used by police forces in the UK.

 

[signed]

Facial recognition is already being used by police forces in the UK.

I stand corrected then

 

[Starmill]

Facial recognition is already being used by police forces in the UK.

Indeed. Of course probably not on people avoiding paying several £5 train fares.

To the OP I hope the message has been heard loud and clear. Please take great care to ensure you are paying for the right tickets before boarding, including if touching in, and you are very unlikely to have further problems.

 

[reb0118]

Whilst you will probably not being targeted specifically you are being targeted generally. In that the longer you avoid fares the greater the chances that you will be caught.

Penalties may include, but are not limited to, payment of the fare due + £100 (reduced to £50 for prompt payment) up to a report for prosecution at a magistrates court.

 

[matt_world2004]

Likely not you in particular ,

But your pattern of not touching in means that there would have likely been intelligence reports of individuals not touching in which would have influenced where to send revenue inspectors

It is very difficult to prove a railway offence without being caught in the act

For example if a revenue inspector came upto me today ; and said "I witnessed you not touching in a year ago " . I would find it nearly impossible to prove that their statement was correct (or that I had a valid reason for not touching in), they would find it very difficult to prove that I didn't have a valid reason for not touching in.

 

[BongoStar]

It is very difficult to prove a railway offence without being caught in the act

For example if a revenue inspector came upto me today ; and said "I witnessed you not touching in a year ago " . I would find it nearly impossible to prove that their statement was correct (or that I had a valid reason for not touching in), they would find it very difficult to prove that I didn't have a valid reason for not touching in.

This exactly. Unless all stations are barriered and can only be entered/exited through contactless or a personally identifiable card (Oyster etc), unless one is caught in the act, it's the ToC which will have to prove the previous occasions of fare avoidance.

Example: a CCTV footage showing me not tapping in at open barriers at one station and not tapping out at another contactless station doesn't necessarily mean I have avoided the fare. I could have had a paper ticket (paid by cash/bought by someone for me etc) or a season ticket etc.

 

[Hadders]

Train companies do target serial fare evaders and have investigators who will note peoples movements and use CCTV, body worn cameras and ticket scan data (where it exists) to put a case together.

Evading your fare 4 or 5 times is unlikely to result in this sort of investigation taking place but I strongly recommend you travel with 100% valid tickets in future.

 

[Skimpot flyer]

Am I wrong in thinking the winner of the franchise held currently by GTR had to make commitments around bringing-in barriers to reduce fare evasion?
Finsbury Park’s main entrance, for example, is barrierred now, whereas for many years it was open

 

[Haywain]

Am I wrong in thinking the winner of the franchise held currently by GTR had to make commitments around bringing-in barriers to reduce fare evasion?
Finsbury Park’s main entrance, for example, is barrierred now, whereas for many years it was open

You are wrong - it's a management contract rather than a franchise and any such changes would be at the expense of DfT, and not be commitments by GTR.

 

[Snow1964]

Am I wrong in thinking the winner of the franchise held currently by GTR had to make commitments around bringing-in barriers to reduce fare evasion?
Finsbury Park’s main entrance, for example, is barrierred now, whereas for many years it was open

There were clauses in the old franchise contracts, regarding adding gatelines, but probably not been any in the post-covid management contracts.

Not sure if any additional barriers were part of the expansion of contactless just outside London area (Project oval).

 

[Haywain]

Finsbury Park’s main entrance, for example, is barrierred now, whereas for many years it was open

Finsbury Par first had barriers at platform level before the main entrances were redeveloped and barriers installed.

 

[Hadders]

Not sure if any additional barriers were part of the expansion of contactless just outside London area (Project oval).

Project Oval hasn't impacted the Great Northern side of GTR yet.

Contactless was extended initially to Brookmans Park which is an unbarriered station. It's subsequently reached Welham Green (unbarriered), Hatfield and Welwyn Garden City (that both have barriers)

 

[reb0118]

I was at a briefing today and we were informed about our new analytical cctv cameras. They pick up on lots of various behavioural types......from potential suicides to fare evaders.

 

[87electric]

I was at a briefing today and we were informed about our new analytical cctv cameras. They pick up on lots of various behavioural types......from potential suicides to fare evaders.

I await their first use in prosecution.

 

[matt_world2004]

I await their first use in prosecution.

I hope they won't be used in any prosecutions but to ascertain where to send resources like revenue inspectors

 

[MotCO]

Evading your fare 4 or 5 times is unlikely to result in this sort of investigation taking place but I strongly recommend you travel with 100% valid tickets in future.

I think this must be the key message to the OP. You only have to look at messages posted by those caught showing the grief suffered. It is just not worth it.

 

[jon0844]

I await their first use in prosecution.

I don't think that's the intention, rather to alert staff about things they might otherwise miss.

 

[Bikeman78]

last week I made a few back and forth journeys between two stations without ticket barriers without tapping in or out, and I was not stopped at all

I have genuinely done this four or five times And would put the total amount avoided at about £30

this week I have noticed police and enforcement at my local station two days in a row, with at least four people there each time

Is it possible they are looking for me, or that I could be prosecuted without actually being stopped for evading the fare.

i have slipped past both times without being stopped by anyone and obviously i am tapping in now

I think that you are overthinking this. There are plenty of ways to have a valid ticket without touching in or out. If you are in London, you could have a paper travelcard. Then you can go backwards and forwards as much as you like. For the rest of the UK, the all line rover is valid and most places have at least one other valid rover. You don't even have to buy the rover anywhere near the area of validity. I recently bought a rover over 100 miles away from where I used it. If EMR want to set up a revenue block at East Midlands Parkway as a result of me going there four times in a day, good luck to them!

 

[The exile]

I think that you are overthinking this. There are plenty of ways to have a valid ticket without touching in or out. If you are in London, you could have a paper travelcard. Then you can go backwards and forwards as much as you like. For the rest of the UK, the all line rover is valid and most places have at least one other valid rover. You don't even have to buy the rover anywhere near the area of validity. I recently bought a rover over 100 miles away from where I used it. If EMR want to set up a revenue block at East Midlands Parkway as a result of me going there four times in a day, good luck to them!

Not to mention the length of time it would take to set up a multi-day revenue block with police presence. This will have been planned before your attempts to deprive the railway of revenue. However - let the amount if concern it’s causing you be a salutary lesson!