Prosecution Threat

[joshykins1]

Hi everyone, I'm in a bit of trouble with Govia Thameslink Railway.

On the 1st of December I was travelling from Hatfield to King's Cross with the purpose of going to Euston Station to travel back to Wolverhampton with my standard ticket. I didnt realised at that time that I was sitting in the First Class area during my journey from Hatfield. I only realised this mistake when a Revenue Protection Investigator approached me to check my tickets.

When the train stopped at King's Cross (police were also present at the station), I cooperated with him and gave him my details. He was very insistent of confiscating my standard ticket which would have caused me to missed my Euston to Wolverhampton train but I refused. He also said I had the choice to pay a penalty fare which I was willing to pay. However I did not had much cash left on my debit card. I was told that I would be able to pay once I receive a letter from them and if I disagree I could appealed later on. I was also told to give a statement and sign it.

Months gone by I thought the matter was forgotten and dropped. To my surprised today, I received a letter from GTR with a Notice of Intention to Prosecute. For the office of "Remain in a reserved seat, berth or train without an appropriate ticket". Obviously, this came as a shock as I was expecting only a £20 penalty. I rang their prosecution office and asked for the manager. I politely explain everything I mentioned above and was told to "put it on paper so they can make a decision".

I acknowledge my mistake as an accident and I'm willing to pay the penalty but am I not allow to pay for the penalty fare first before they intend on prosecuting me? I'm currently very anxious as I'm in the process of applying for a postgrad place and do not want to lose it because of a criminal record. Can you guys give me some advice?

 

[najaB]

Hi everyone, I'm in a bit of trouble with Govia Thameslink Railway.

I acknowledge my mistake as an accident and I'm willing to pay the penalty but am I not allow to pay for the penalty fare first before they intend on prosecuting me? I'm currently very anxious as I'm in the process of applying for a postgrad place and do not want to lose it because of a criminal record. Can you guys give me some advice?

To answer your last point first - it is unlikely that you will end up with a criminal record over this matter. You can have a read through the Legal Section of the forum, but to summarise there are two different laws that pertain to ticketing offences - one, the Regulation of Railways Act - does leave a criminal record, but the other - the Railway Byelaws - which you are most likely foul of do not.

Now, to the matter of the Penalty Fare. Unfortunately, if you don't make payment towards it in a timely manner, then you lose the opportunity to settle the matter via this route. What should have been explained to you at the time is that the Penalty Fare Notice you received at the time was the paperwork you needed to pay the PF online - you don't normally (ever?) get any separate letter in the post.

There is still a chance that you may be able to avoid this going all the way to court, but don't be surprised if the amount that GTR ask for is substantially higher than the original PF amount.

 

[island]

I'm not sure why you feel you would lose a postgrad place due to having a criminal record. Most universities do not run criminal records checks. Additionally, the offence you mention is not recordable.

Sitting in 1st class without a 1st class ticket is, as you discovered, a criminal offence. A Penalty Fare is a concession allowed to travellers who make a genuine mistake. If you are unable or unwilling to pay at least the full single fare for the journey you made, on the spot, then that concession is no longer available. The portable machines that are used by on-train staff do not check available funds and you would in all likelihood have been able to pay the required amount of around £15 and then pay the remainder of the penalty within 21 days. Penalty Fares are not issued by post.

Additionally, tickets are the property of the railway and you committed a further offence by failing to hand over your ticket when requested.

As a result of the offences you committed, you are now liable to be prosecuted and whilst it is usual for GTR and the other Train Operating Companies to allow a passenger to pay a sum in lieu of prosecution in most cases, the cost will be two or three times the amount of the Penalty Fare.

 

[cjmillsnun]

Penalty fares are discretionary. If you got a penalty fare, you would've been issued with it on the spot (a piece of paper with your details telling you what to do to pay).

The offence they are looking to take you to court for is a railway bylaw offence (Bylaw 19. Classes of accommodation, reserved seats and sleeping berths.)

The bad news is, you're guilty. It's a strict lability offence.

The good news is, you won't get a criminal record. It's non recordable.

Even now, all is not lost.

write to them, explaining everything, being apologetic and that it was an accident.

They may write back offering you an out of court settlement. Expect it to be in three figures.

 

[joshykins1]

Now, to the matter of the Penalty Fare. Unfortunately, if you don't make payment towards it in a timely manner, then you lose the opportunity to settle the matter via this route. What should have been explained to you at the time is that the Penalty Fare Notice you received at the time was the paperwork you needed to pay the PF online - you don't normally (ever?) get any separate letter in the post.

There is still a chance that you may be able to avoid this going all the way to court, but don't be surprised if the amount that GTR ask for is substantially higher than the original PF amount.

Thanks for the reply!

I don't recall being issued with any paperwork with regard to the penalty fare nor was there explanation about how to pay the PF. Only for the fact that the RPI said it will be though the mail and I have the opportunity to appeal against it.

I would prefer to settle issue with the least hassle and stress as possible. How do I communicate to the Prosecutions that I would prefer an out of court settlement? Also how much would it be?

 

[Parham Wood]

In a lot of these threads there is a common theme where the traveller has been told one thing by the guard, ticket inspector etc. and what happens next is entirely different. Nearly always this seems to be to the disadvantage of the traveller. There is little comeback on this as the traveller has no proof of the conversation. Perhaps staff should be issued with a check card that they have to run through in these cases so that the traveller is given the correct options and information about what happens if they cannot pay there and then, plus options about making some payment at the time.

 

[najaB]

I don't recall being issued with any paperwork with regard to the penalty fare nor was there explanation about how to pay the PF. Only for the fact that the RPI said it will be though the mail and I have the opportunity to appeal against it.

I would prefer to settle issue with the least hassle and stress as possible. How do I communicate to the Prosecutions that I would prefer an out of court settlement? Also how much would it be?

If you are 100% sure that you didn't receive a penalty fare notice then it is possible that the matter may be set aside as the rules weren't followed. I wouldn't count on it though.

As to the amount of any settlement, it would be enough to buy a standard length piece of string - it's entirely up to them, as a starting point take the cost of a first class fare for the journey taken plus £100 to £150. Write back to the address on the correspondence you have received explaining how sorry you are about the situation, that you didn't realise you needed to pay the penalty fare online because you didn't receive a PFN and offering to save them the expense of going to court.

Let us know how you get on.

 

[joshykins1]

Having read the Byelaws and RoRa, can someone explain to me why my case leans towards Byelaws?

In retrospect I do feel that the RPI I dealt with was very unprofessional. I committed an honest mistake but was treated like a criminal, even when I am compliant and polite.

 

[bb21]

From your account of things, it sounds like you were originally offered a Penalty Fare, but due to your inability to pay, this escalated and the offer of the Penalty Fare was withdrawn.

As cjmillsnun said, your actions appear to be contrary to Byelaw 19, which concerns occupying a class of accommodation you are not entitled to.

While this may sound harsh to you as you felt that you made a small mistake, they do have the option of prosecuting under the Byelaws, and there is usually very little defence as the facts of the breach appears to be clear.

You may wish to consider settling the matter out of court unless there are other compelling reasons to fight it.

 

[Deerfold]

Did you have enough on your card to pay the full single First Class fare?

 

[najaB]

Having read the Byelaws and RoRa, can someone explain to me why my case leans towards Byelaws?

Because the RoRA is concerned with intent to defraud, where the Byelaws are merely concerned with simple questions of what you did/didn't do.

In your case it would be hard to make the case that you intended to defraud the railway because you did pay for a ticket, just not the correct one for the particular seat you were in. On the other hand, a Byelaw 19 prosecution would be sure to succeed (as cjmillsnun pointed out above).

 

[DaveNewcastle]

Having read the Byelaws and RoRa, can someone explain to me why my case leans towards Byelaws?

Because the phrase you quoted from the letter you have received is the wording of Railway Byelaw 19:

. . . . . I received a letter from GTR with a Notice of Intention to Prosecute. For the office of "Remain in a reserved seat, berth or train without an appropriate ticket". . . . .

19. Classes of accommodation, reserved seats and sleeping berths

Except with permission from an authorised person, no person shall remain in any seat, berth or any part of a train where a notice indicates that it is reserved for a specified ticket holder or holders of tickets of a specific class, except the holder of a valid ticket entitling him to be in that particular place.

In retrospect I do feel that the RPI I dealt with was very unprofessional. I committed an honest mistake but was treated like a criminal, even when I am compliant and polite.

You may feel that way -but if you will also acknowledge that by that point you had already been identified as having committed a Criminal Offence, then perhaps that's not the time to start looking for faults in other people's behaviour - real or otherwise. You might have felt as if you were being treated as a Criminal because, at that point you had satisfied the conditions of evidence which will assure that you are a Criminal, if a Court is asked to give Judgement on that incident.

I know that this isn't what you want to hear, and that you'd prefer to receive some sympathy and support, but as I understand the facts you have presented, then a strict liability Offence has been committed and you have not yet accepted that fact. Constructive ways forward might become more apparent when you have accepted that unfortunate fact. Sorry!

cjmillsnun has suggested where those constructive ways forward may lie.

I guess you have strong views on how Criminals and Criminal suspects should be treated, and want to expres them, but choosing to express those views right now is not consistent with these constructive suggestions. You'll probably want to express an opinion of the law, but again, to start a campaign to change them right now is not going to minimise the consequences of your incident for you.

 

[Chapeltom]

Having read the Byelaws and RoRa, can someone explain to me why my case leans towards Byelaws?

In retrospect I do feel that the RPI I dealt with was very unprofessional. I committed an honest mistake but was treated like a criminal, even when I am compliant and polite.

If you genuinely felt this way, you'd have mentioned it in your original post. Having said that, I never cease to be amazed by the amount of people who come on here asking for advice then always end up pointing towards an RPI 'being unprofessional', 'rude' etc when the said person is facing up to the consequences of their actions. You may feel aggreived having made a genuine mistake, uou may have genuine cause for complaint about the RPIs conduct, which I won't dismiss but....

Your primary concern at this stage is getting this sorted without the case going to court, it has been pointed out to you that you've breached the bye-laws and I'd suggest if your feelings on the RPI are genuine you make a separate complaint to GTR after.

 

[joshykins1]

Okay thanks everyone for the informative answers regarding byelaws. Its somewhat comforting to know that I wont be besmirched by a criminal record. Although the whole penalty fare situation is quite perplexing. I don't plan to dispute with the offence laid on me. To be honest, I rather just get this deal with, move on with life and pay more attention where I sit next time.

I plan to take on everyone's advice here and try to settle this out of court. I have drafted my response and plan to seek advice from the CAB before I send it off.

Do you guys mind having a read?

Dear Sir/Madam,



I accept the liability that I was travelling without an appropriate ticket. I boarded your company’s train service at Hatfield station with the intent to travel to King’s Cross station on the 1st of December. I failed to realised that I was seated in the First Class area and I had a standard ticket (Advance ticket from Hatfield to Wolverhampton, 16-25 railcard). 



Upon being stopped by the Revenue Protection Inspector, I cooperated willingly to clarify my honest mistake and provided personal information to aid his work. I was willing to pay for the Penalty Fare, but however I did not have the means to pay due to my financial circumstances at that time. From my conversations with the Revenue Protection Inspector, I was under the impression that I was only being contacted to pay the Penalty Fare. As you can imagine, receiving this prosecution notice has place me under unduly stress.


I have to stressed it was not my intention to defraud Govia Thameslink Railway and I sympathise with the need for ticket enforcement to root out dishonest fare dodgers. At that time I was under great stress from my studies and was not familiar with the layout of your company’s train. This led me to mistakenly taking a seat in the First Class area. I offer my sincerest apologies for my idiotic mistake.

This is my first incident and it will also be my last.

Again, I apologise profusely for my error.



Yours faithfully,
Joshua Loh


Did you have enough on your card to pay the full single First Class fare?

I had very little left on my card. In retrospect I rather risk the overdraft than this.

I guess you have strong views on how Criminals and Criminal suspects should be treated, and want to expres them, but choosing to express those views right now is not consistent with these constructive suggestions. You'll probably want to express an opinion of the law, but again, to start a campaign to change them right now is not going to minimise the consequences of your incident for you.

You're right. My earlier opinion wasn't constructive nor helpful. I have accepted I have committed an offence and I don't plan to dispute it. Don't get me wrong, I do feel apologetic about this whole incident.


My sincerest thanks to everyone here for their advice. Seriously thank you!!

 

[RJ]

It is true though that some ticket inspectors who believe the passenger has commited an offence really talk to the passenger like they're the scum of the earth, or at least something they've stepped in. I've seen it happen and don't agree with it, I used to be polite and concise with people when issuing them with PFs, they usually said "thank you" at the end as if it was a normal transaction.

Although it has no bearing on the likelihood of an offence being committed, I think it's unconstructive to be dismissive of any claims that staff behaved in such a way that made them feel aggrieved.

 

[Hellfire]

I used to be polite and concise with people when issuing them with PFs, they usually said "thank you" at the end as if it was a normal transaction.

Politeness, as they say, costs nothing. I always used to be polite when I arrested people....unless they were taking a swing at me at the time

 

[najaB]

I plan to take on everyone's advice here and try to settle this out of court. I have drafted my response and plan to seek advice from the CAB before I send it off.

Do you guys mind having a read?

That sounds okay, though I have two suggestions.

First, reword "As you can imagine, receiving this prosecution notice has place me under unduly stress." - maybe something like "Receiving a prosecution notice was a shock as I thought I would be getting an invoice to pay the Penalty Fare"

Second, remove the sentence "At that time I was under great stress from my studies and was not familiar with the layout of your company’s train." as the first part isn't relevant and the second part sounds like you're putting the blame on them.

 

[cjmillsnun]

Here's how I'd write it... Feel free to use it.

Dear Sirs

I accept that I was travelling without an appropriate ticket. I boarded your company’s train service at Hatfield on 1 December to travel to King’s Cross. I failed to realise that I was seated in the First Class area and I had a standard ticket (Advance ticket from Hatfield to Wolverhampton, 16-25 railcard). 



Upon being stopped by the Revenue Protection Inspector, I cooperated willingly to clarify my honest mistake and provided my details when asked for them.

I was under the impression that I would be receiving a penalty fare, and that details of this and how to pay would be sent to me by post. I was therefore surprised to receive notice that you intend to prosecute as the first correspondence since travelling on that day.


I apologise profusely for my error
, and would like to settle this matter amicably.

I am willing to pay the first class fare for the journey from Hatfield to King's Cross plus reasonable costs incurred in pursuing your claim.

Yours faithfully