Prosecution Letter

[London1234]

Hello everyone,

I was hoping that someone here can either help, and or, make this crazy situation seem more manageable because right now I'm very scared!!

Last month, 18th Feb, I was approached by a ticket conductor. I showed him my weekly season ticket which was from Clapham to all London terminals. However, I had actually travelled from Tooting which means my ticket wasn't valid from this station.
This is completely my fault and I take full responsibility for this (the ticket was bought in haste and from habit the wrong station was chosen) but at the time, as it was 7.20am on a very busy train, I became flustered, embarrassed and rather intimidated by the ticket conductor.
I know he was only doing his job but as I didn't know what to do so I stupidly gave an incorrect address. we both knew this was incorrect so I asked to change the address. At this point I didn't want to seem like a complete idiot lying about where I lived so put down my tooting address but said it was my friends house from which I could pick up the letter ( I know this just gets better and better right ) He told me he needed an address to which I was registered so I chose to give him my parents address which is completely out of London. It seemed like this would be the best option to not only give a valid address from which I would receive the fine letter, but also to try and save some of my bruised dignity.

He told me that I would hear from FCC with either a fine for the correct travel amount, or 25 quid. However, after about 25 days I've now received a letter saying that I am going to be prosecuted!

Is this standard procedure? it seems crazy that I wasn't given the opportunity to pay the initial fine - which I completely intended on doing as I know I was in the wrong. It feels like the first letter wasn't received and now they think I have ignored the fine? would this be possible?

I am very worried about this. I have seen posts on here talking about hefty fines and charges - I think this would kill me!! I know I was in the wrong and I intend to pay a fine but putting a jail sentence, criminal record and 1000 fine on to someone who was one station away from the ticket seems extreme?

I would appreciate any advice possible.

 

[yorkie]

Welcome to the forum.

Hello everyone,

I was hoping that someone here can either help, and or, make this crazy situation seem more manageable because right now I'm very scared!!

Last month, 18th Feb, I was approached by a ticket conductor. I showed him my weekly season ticket which was from Clapham to all London terminals. However, I had actually travelled from Tooting which means my ticket wasn't valid from this station.

I have checked if this is a permitted route in the Routeing Guide by looking at the relevant maps, and I agree it's not.

It's valid via Stretham, but not valid via Tooting. So you were not on a permitted route for your Season ticket.

This is completely my fault and I take full responsibility for this (the ticket was bought in haste and from habit the wrong station was chosen) but at the time, as it was 7.20am on a very busy train, I became flustered, embarrassed and rather intimidated by the ticket conductor.
I know he was only doing his job but as I didn't know what to do so I stupidly gave an incorrect address. we both knew this was incorrect so I asked to change the address. At this point I didn't want to seem like a complete idiot lying about where I lived so put down my tooting address but said it was my friends house from which I could pick up the letter ( I know this just gets better and better right ) He told me he needed an address to which I was registered so I chose to give him my parents address which is completely out of London. It seemed like this would be the best option to not only give a valid address from which I would receive the fine letter, but also to try and save some of my bruised dignity.

Giving an incorrect address is a byelaw offence, and can also make the original offence more serious as it looks like you are trying to get away with it.

He told me that I would hear from FCC with either a fine for the correct travel amount, or 25 quid. However, after about 25 days I've now received a letter saying that I am going to be prosecuted!

You can't be "fined" the correct amount, so it sounds like you may have been misled or misheard. A fine (imposed by a Court) would be in addition to the correct amount, and also in addition to any costs incurred by FCC bringing the matter to Court.

Is this standard procedure? it seems crazy that I wasn't given the opportunity to pay the initial fine - which I completely intended on doing as I know I was in the wrong. It feels like the first letter wasn't received and now they think I have ignored the fine? would this be possible?

Yes it is.

There isn't an 'initial fine', the fine can only be determined by a Court.

You may, however, be thinking of a Penalty Fare, which is a higher than usual fare charged when a passenger makes a mistakes in certain circumstances and has not been deemed applicable to this situation.

I am very worried about this. I have seen posts on here talking about hefty fines and charges - I think this would kill me!! I know I was in the wrong and I intend to pay a fine but putting a jail sentence, criminal record and 1000 fine on to someone who was one station away from the ticket seems extreme?

It depends on the legislation they use. Presumably you've been sent a letter asking you for a written Statement? If so, they may not have decided what legislation to use yet, though the wording of the letter should give some clues. See our prosecutions section in our Fares Guide for more information (I have given you access to this).

In any case, you do not need to worry about a possible jail sentence - that is only for repeat offenders.

FCC may well consider an out of court settlement.

 

[bb21]

Where and how did you purchase your season ticket?

The RPI might well have decided that it was not appropriate to charge a Penalty Fare because your actions had the hallmarks of someone who intended to avoid paying his fare: an invalid ticket for a completely different area, giving incorrect addresses, and possibly your body language and other factors which we can only guess.

Fare evaders are dealt with through prosecution and not the Penalty Fare system and the decision whether to offer a Penalty Fare or to report for prosecution is one for the RPI to make, depending on various factors. There is no compulsion to charge the £20 (minimum) Penalty Fare.

 

[CheapAndNerdy]

What about map SC? It is a valid map for Clapham Junction to London Terminals and appears to allow a route via Tooting?

 

[maniacmartin]

What about map SC? It is a valid map for Clapham Junction to London Terminals and appears to allow a route via Tooting?

I agree. It appears to be a valid route by map SC. That would only leave the possible offence of the invalid address.

 

[yorkie]

I agree. It appears to be a valid route by map SC. That would only leave the possible offence of the invalid address.

Hmm, by going to Mitcham Junction (avoiding Stretham), then in a huge loop via Sutton, Wimbledon, Stretham to Blackfriars? Looks like it is (erroneously) valid after all!

I think that a defence could be mounted on that basis, though FCC may well decide to prosecute for the offence of giving the incorrect address instead. Hmm..

Also it has come to light that, even without the issue of validity via the Sutton loop, the passenger was 100% valid at the point where the inspection took place.

Also, I put via Tooting into TBTC and it said not valid, but I have now realised you have to input the whole route to get a correct analysis, and when you specify Clapham Jn to Blackfriars via Balham, Mitcham Jn, Sutton, Wimbledon, Tooting it says it is valid.

Of course, it won't be valid for much longer, but for the time being it is indeed a permitted route, though utterly bonkers.

 

[CheapAndNerdy]

The NRE site also seems to be happy with travelling SWT to Wimbledon and then FCC to Blackfriars.

 

[yorkie]

And the FCC website will sell a Clapham Junction to London Terminals season for journeys from Clapham Junction to London Blackfriars via Tooting. See attached screenshot.

Now, this wouldn't be the first time FCC have prosecuted someone for following the advice of the FCC journey planner. That case cost FCC a lot of money.

 

[MikeWh]

And the FCC website will sell a Clapham Junction to London Terminals season for journeys from Clapham Junction to London Blackfriars via Tooting. See attached screenshot.

Now, this wouldn't be the first time FCC have prosecuted someone for following the advice of the FCC journey planner. That case cost FCC a lot of money.

It's a shame an incorrect address was given, because I agree that FCC will use that to save face if this is challenged.

 

[bb21]

And the FCC website will sell a Clapham Junction to London Terminals season for journeys from Clapham Junction to London Blackfriars via Tooting. See attached screenshot.

Now, this wouldn't be the first time FCC have prosecuted someone for following the advice of the FCC journey planner. That case cost FCC a lot of money.

I doubt that was the OP's intention. That said, I agree that in light of this absurd validity, the prosecution case should be null and void. Very fortunate the OP is.

 

[London1234]

wow, so may messages here to take in and try to digest! you guys have really put a lot of work into this and I thanks you for that alone.

I want to call the prosecution number tomorrow and try to sort out this huge mess. I know that the invalid address is an offence in itself and for this I shall be honest - Like I said, I was completely flustered, embarrassed and to be fair intimidated. I was in the wrong and I will not try to avoid any penalty for this. However I'm not a bad person, this will not happen again and all of this huge panlty/fine business scares me! I do not earn enough to pay for these massive amounts. If you could therefore help me figure out what to say RE all of this route business? does the above mean that Tooting is valid within the ticket? But only if I travel via certain places?

I'm sorry if this request is annoying. I just want to make sure I understand everything before I call them.

This forum will be recommended to all. You guys are very helpful.

 

[yorkie]

No problem. The answers have already been provided - take another look (perhaps slowly) at previous posts, and at relevant parts of our Fares Guide. Yes, it is a lot to digest - ticketing is complicated. I personally would use the FCC journey planner evidence, rather than the Routeing Guide, as this is more "reasonable" and straightforward.

I would perhaps leave it a couple of days before phoning. You need to be clear about what outcome you want and get a bit more of an understanding of the issues.

Also some (many?) prosecution departments will only engage with written correspondence.

 

[Bijgc]

Whilst I can't claim to understand the intricacies of the RG that allow this ticket to be valid, does the fact that the validity was missed by the RPI render their subsequent questioning of the OP (during which the false address was brought up) moot? In which case, I'd follow Yorkie's advice and request/hope that FCC leave the issue here!

 

[RPI]

Giving a false address is an RRA offence.

Like others have said, offer to pay their costs and the fare and it will stay out of court, FCC generally are quick to settle out of court as going to court helps no one really, particularly if you admit the offence.

 

[Urban Gateline]

Wow that is very strange validity of only a Clapham to London terminals ticket! You learn something new every day I guess...however it'd be interesting to see someone taking that long route and trying BOJ somewhere like Wimbledon or Sutton...

 

[maniacmartin]

Giving a false address is an RRA offence.

AFAIK the Regulation of Railways Act only makes it an offence to give a false address, having failed to produce a valid ticket.

The OP's ticket was valid (even if by fluke), so I don't think FCC have any grounds to bring a prosecution.

However I am not an expert in this legislation

 

[bb21]

AFAIK the Regulation of Railways Act only makes it an offence to give a false address, having failed to produce a valid ticket

Exactly my point.

I don't believe that the prosecution would be valid as the circumstances in which an offence is committed under Sections 5.2 and 5.3(c) of the Regulation of Railways Act do not exist in this case.

There is always the possibility that the OP might have incriminated himself during the interview however.

 

[michael769]

Railway byelaw 23 might be applicable to the failure to supply an address. However it puld require that the OP had been informed that they were suspected to breaching byelaw 18.

 

[London1234]

deary me - I'm reading the comments over and over and there are a couple of details about the validity of tooting on this ticket that I'm just not getting

What I'm not clear on is if Tooting a valid station within the route based on a specific journey? I guess what I'm not getting is if Tooting is in a blanket area of validity and I can go from Clapham, through tooting and then on to victoria whichever way I please, or do I have to state a specific route I take in order for it to be valid?

Also, can Tooting be the starting point of the journey or do I have to go 'through' tooting in order for it to be valid? do you see what I mean?
When the guy questioned me, I said that I'd stayed at a friends in tooting which is why I'd got on there - hence me giving the false clapham address. I guess this info will be known and will seriously effect the option of me using this valid ticket malarkey if it's only valid if I'm going through there. does this make sense?

I guess it's just confusing me! it goes over my head quite a bit. I didn't expect to get so much feedback from you lovely, helpful people! I want to get this sorted in the best possible way so I don't want to call the prosecution line with any doubt lingering in my head - as I guess it could make matters worse.

Your final thoughts on this are much appreciated so i can get this over with and face the music
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

When the guy questioned me, I said that I'd stayed at a friends in tooting which is why I'd got on there - hence me giving the false clapham address. I guess this info will be known and will seriously effect the option of me using this valid ticket malarkey if it's only valid if I'm going through there. does this make sense?
(

what I mean by this is that as I admitted I'd got on at tooting - not that I was on the way through there, can I use this 'valid route' option to help my case? I am thinking that I could only say this If I said I was passing through there as part of my journey - and not starting there?

 

[island]

Wow that is very strange validity of only a Clapham to London terminals ticket! You learn something new every day I guess...however it'd be interesting to see someone taking that long route and trying BOJ somewhere like Wimbledon or Sutton...

You will find that Clapham to London Terminals is valid via Lancaster or Doncaster.

 

[maniacmartin]

Ticket validity and routeing is amazingly complex, but I'll try to summarise.

The contract that governs almost all rail tickets sold in the UK mainland is the National Rail Conditions of Carriage (NRCoC), which can be downloaded as a PDF here. Section 13 details the routes which you are entitled to take:

13. The route you are entitled to take
(a) You may travel between the stations shown on the ticket you hold in:
(i) a train on which you are able to make your entire journey without changing trains;
(ii) trains which take the shortest route which can be used by scheduled passenger services; or
(iii) trains which take the routes shown in the National Routeing Guide.

Clearly Clapham Junction to London Terminals via Tooting doesn't fall under the first two options, so we must consult the National Routeing Guide. There are a few steps:

1. First, find the appropriate routeing points for the origin and destination using Section B, the "Pink Pages". Clapham Junction is a Routeing Point in its own right, and the relevant London Terminals are members of the London Group
2. Next look up these Routeing Points in Section C, the "Yellow Pages". Clapham Junction to London Group is listed on page 189 and gives a choice of maps LB, LK, PD, SC or WX.
3. Next, look up these maps in Section D. You can choose any of the maps given in the previous step. The one we're interested in here is map SC (page 95). You are allowed to travel on any route you can trace on this map between Clapham Junction and any of the London Terminal members shown on this map, as long as you don't pass through the same station twice. One example might be Clapham Junction - Mitcham Junction (avoiding Streatham) - Sutton - Wimbledon - Tooting - Streatham - London Blackfriars. This is a therefore valid route for a Clapham Jn to London Terminals ticket.

However, because your ticket was a season ticket and not just a normal ticket, you get extra rights. In the National Rail Conditions of Carriage, Section F details "Additional Conditions applying to Season Tickets".

30. Validity
[...] This includes the right to start, break and resume, or end your journey, as described in Condition 16 [...]

Let's look at Section 16

16. Starting, breaking or ending a journey at intermediate stations
You may start, or break and resume, a journey (in either direction in the case of a return ticket) at any intermediate station, as long as the ticket you hold is valid for the trains you want to use. You may also end your journey (in either direction in the case of a return ticket) before the destination shown on the ticket [...]

So, you are entitled to start a journey with a season ticket at any intermediate station on a permitted route, including Tooting. You can also do bits of journeys back to back, each bit being a sections of various different permitted routes.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

You will find that Clapham to London Terminals is valid via Lancaster or Doncaster.

I don't think this is helpful. The OP clearly meant Clapham Junction not Clapham (North Yorkshire)

 

[CheapAndNerdy]

Perhaps London1234 can confirm that he means Clapham Junction and not Clapham High Street. Reviewing the thread, the OP mentions Clapham and we have assumed Clapham Junction.

 

[London1234]

oh my goodness, this information is exactly what I was after and needed. thanks for breaking it down so clearly and accurately
I'm going to have a look at this map now and see how I can make a journey to victoria which falls within the criteria.

you are AMAZING.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
Yes, I mean Clapham Junction.

 

[maniacmartin]

Can you tell us the exact route which you took?

 

[London1234]

ok, I've looked at the map.
The only problem I can now see is that I said I was travelling to Victoria - which has no 'inbetween' stations between itself and clapham.
However if I'd started the journey the night before from blackfriars, stopping at tooting as a 'break point' and then re-joining the next day, going through clapham and then on to victoria - would this be valid?
I can also see that as I got stopped at herne hill - there isn't a red line between there and victoria - although there is a train running between these two stations. does this mean that this is not valid on this route/ticket? Or is this because it's a different train line - south eastern rail- and therefore still valid for me to use with the ticket but just not on this particular map? - you're right! this is complex!

I hope you can see that I am also trying to get to grips with this myself (admittedly through you guys! ) and am not wanting you to just 'tell' me things : Your feedback is ever well received though!!

 

[yorkie]

With a Season ticket you can do any number of intermediate journeys.

See National Rail Enquiries site

• You can use your Season Ticket up to and including its expiry date for any number of journeys between the stations and/or within the zone(s) shown on it at any time of day. It may be used at intermediate stations, and on any permitted route, unless a route or any other restrictions are specified on the ticket. Details are available where these tickets are issued.

 

[maniacmartin]

Can you tell us the exact route which you took?

Did you go from Tooting to Blackfriars, or Tooting to Victoria or some other destination, and which stations did you pass through?

 

[London1234]

I went from tooting - this was the first train I was on. It passed through streatham, tulse hill and then got to hearne hill where I got off and went to victoria. however this:

Quote:
You can use your Season Ticket up to and including its expiry date for any number of journeys between the stations and/or within the zone(s) shown on it at any time of day. It may be used at intermediate stations, and on any permitted route, unless a route or any other restrictions are specified on the ticket. Details are available where these tickets are issued.

means that this is still ok right? the fact that I can travel within the zones/intermediate stations means that going from herne hill to victoria would be ok?
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
P.s. thanks Yorkie

 

[Yew]

(3)If any person—
(c) Having failed to pay his fare, gives in reply to a request by an officer of a railway company a false name or address,

http://www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga/Vict/52-53/57/section/5

I have included a quote from the RORA for the avoidance of doubt.

 

[London1234]

the point here Yew is that I did pay my fare and that my ticket was valid. if this is the case then giving an address in the first place is un-necessary
I am correct in thinking this?
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
the point here Yew is that I did pay my fare and that my ticket was valid. if this is the case then giving an address in the first place is un-necessary
I am correct in thinking this?