Prosecution letter...

[ChantelleO]

Hi, I was wondering if anyone could help me, it's a pretty serious matter and I really need some advice.

My sister has received a letter in the post today from Greater Anglia trains company notifying her that all available evidence is being considered as to whether legal proceedings are appropriate because she failed to show a valid ticket at Liverpool Street station.

The issue was, that at the station she got on the train, the ticket office was being refurbished and was therefore shut. She looked for a ticket machine and could not locate one. She then went into the train coffee shop and asked the staff where she could buy a ticket. They informed her that they did not know. She had the intention of buying a ticket either on the train, or at her destination. However, after being unable to locate a ticket officer aboard the train, she reached her destination and was then in a hurry and completely forgot about the ticket. Natural instinct took over and she tried to swipe her Oyster card to exit through the barriers, forgetting that she hadn't bought a ticket. She was then stopped and questioned by a ticket officer and was told to expect a fine in the next few days, which of course she accepted and was quite happy to pay.

Two weeks later and she has now received a letter telling her that she could be prosecuted. This would completely ruin her life if she receives a criminal record, she would lose her job and be unable to travel to Australia this year as planned. The complication comes with the fact that during November and December, she was suffering from a serious bout of glandular fever and had just had 6 weeks off work. The ticket fiasco happened during her first or second week back at work full time. She was suffering from fatigue, confusion, memory loss, exhaustion and disorientation - all of the symptoms of glandular fever. We believe that this will undoubtedly have affected her state of mind the day of this event.

She is quite happy to pay any fine and administration costs and simply wants to avoid prosecution and a criminal record. She accepts full responsibility for her actions and knows she was in the wrong, but never fails to buy tickets (she travels on trains everyday) and pays thousands of pounds for season tickets.

Can anybody give me some advice on how she should deal with this? Should she contact a solicitor? Should she write a personal letter to the trains company citing every factor mentioned above? What should she do to avoid getting a criminal record?

Any help would be so greatly appreciated. Thank you.

Chantelle

 

[bb21]

Firstly, where did she get on the train? Did she change trains en route?

Secondly, does she remember any conversation that took place that day? What was asked? What was said in response?

Just to clarify, do you mean this happened about two weeks ago?

I believe that all of Greater Anglia's "Metro" services are DOO (Driver-Only Operation). She will not be able to find a guard onboard as there is none. The only people encountered onboard will be RPIs (Revenue Protection Inspectors).

 

[455driver]

She needs to calm down for a start, all this letter is doing is asking for her statement as to what happened that day.

Dont worry unnecessarily.

 

[yorkie]

... she reached her destination and was then in a hurry and completely forgot about the ticket. Natural instinct took over and she tried to swipe her Oyster card to exit through the barriers, forgetting that she hadn't bought a ticket.

She thought she had swiped in at her origin?

It raises more questions than it gives answers, especially as we don't know the origin station.

She was then stopped and questioned by a ticket officer and was told to expect a fine in the next few days, which of course she accepted and was quite happy to pay.

It doesn't quite work like that. A fine is only issued by a Court if she pleads, or is found, guilty.

Two weeks later and she has now received a letter telling her that she could be prosecuted. This would completely ruin her life if she receives a criminal record, she would lose her job and be unable to travel to Australia this year as planned.

It depends on what offence she is prosecuted under. If they cannot (or do not attempt to) prove intent, then it would not be a recordable offence.

The complication comes with the fact that during November and December, she was suffering from a serious bout of glandular fever and had just had 6 weeks off work. The ticket fiasco happened during her first or second week back at work full time. She was suffering from fatigue, confusion, memory loss, exhaustion and disorientation - all of the symptoms of glandular fever. We believe that this will undoubtedly have affected her state of mind the day of this event.

I don't know if this would be in any way a mitigating circumstance and if it is, what evidence would be required. Perhaps a legal expert might...

She is quite happy to pay any fine

I think you meant to say fare, rather than fine?

and administration costs and simply wants to avoid prosecution and a criminal record. She accepts full responsibility for her actions and knows she was in the wrong, but never fails to buy tickets (she travels on trains everyday) and pays thousands of pounds for season tickets.

Can anybody give me some advice on how she should deal with this? Should she contact a solicitor? Should she write a personal letter to the trains company citing every factor mentioned above? What should she do to avoid getting a criminal record?

It's usual practice for the Train Company to send a letter asking for her version of events. Has that already happened, and this is their reply? Or have they asked her for her version of events in this letter?

I am not sure there is enough information to give precise advice, but if she is happy to pay the fare plus administration costs, she could write to GA offering an Out of Court Settlement.

 

[Dave1987]

I think the company is trying to crack down on people travelling without a ticket and then touching their oyster on the barriers to avoid paying the full fare. If you boarded at a station that has a ticket office they usually have a ticket machine as well or at least a permit to travel machine. So I think it's a bit dubious that she could not find a ticket machine. But if there wasn't a ticket machine or it wasn't working why didn't she approach the RPI's on the barriers and explain up front and ask to buy a ticket? Touching her oyster def wasn't a good idea.

 

[Ferret]

I think the company is trying to crack down on people travelling without a ticket and then touching their oyster on the barriers to avoid paying the full fare. If you boarded at a station that has a ticket office they usually have a ticket machine as well or at least a permit to travel machine. So I think it's a bit dubious that she could not find a ticket machine. But if there wasn't a ticket machine or it wasn't working why didn't she approach the RPI's on the barriers and explain up front and ask to buy a ticket? Touching her oyster def wasn't a good idea.

I agree. It's the touching the Oyster that made the RPI suspect that there was intent to avoid the fare. I'm not sure that Anglia would go for the more serious offence here though, it is far more likely that the Byelaw 18 offence of failure to show a ticket when requested to do so will be Prosecuted if it gets that far, an offence which does not carry a criminal record.

I'd say the usual tactics would apply here - offer to settle out of Court and see what they say.

 

[ChantelleO]

Firstly, where did she get on the train? Did she change trains en route?

Secondly, does she remember any conversation that took place that day? What was asked? What was said in response?

Just to clarify, do you mean this happened about two weeks ago?

I believe that all of Greater Anglia's "Metro" services are DOO (Driver-Only Operation). She will not be able to find a guard onboard as there is none. The only people encountered onboard will be RPIs (Revenue Protection Inspectors).

She got on the train at Marks Tey railway station near Layer de la Haye and went straight to Liverpool Street.

She only spoke to the people in the coffee shop and the ticket officer at Liverpool Street, who wrote down what she told him. She explained that she couldn't find a ticket machine and the ticket office was shut and that she swiped her season ticket in mistake, because it's what she usually does.

Sorry for not clarifying, the event took place in December. Around the 3rd I believe. I don't think she was aware of the DOO fact.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

She thought she had swiped in at her origin?

I think you meant to say fare, rather than fine?

It's usual practice for the Train Company to send a letter asking for her version of events. Has that already happened, and this is their reply? Or have they asked her for her version of events in this letter?

I am not sure there is enough information to give precise advice, but if she is happy to pay the fare plus administration costs, she could write to GA offering an Out of Court Settlement.

My apologies for causing confusion, I was just writing what I had been told. She didn't think she had swiped in at her destination, I should have specified. She has a season ticket that covers her for any London zones, both on trains and the tube. In an automatic response to arriving at Liverpool Street and forgetting that she hadn't got a ticket to cover her from Essex, she swiped her season ticket to exit (as she usually does when she travels from Feltham).

I don't really know the ins and outs of fares/fines, I thought she would be sent a fine for her failure to show a valid ticket.

They have not sent a letter asking for her version of events, this is the first letter she has received at all and it states that she may be prosecuted. It simply says that she can respond within 14 days.

She is happy to pay the fare and any administration costs, yes. She is just so worried that she will end up with a criminal record.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

I think the company is trying to crack down on people travelling without a ticket and then touching their oyster on the barriers to avoid paying the full fare. If you boarded at a station that has a ticket office they usually have a ticket machine as well or at least a permit to travel machine. So I think it's a bit dubious that she could not find a ticket machine. But if there wasn't a ticket machine or it wasn't working why didn't she approach the RPI's on the barriers and explain up front and ask to buy a ticket? Touching her oyster def wasn't a good idea.

It was my mistake for saying oyster card. It was actually her season ticket that she attemped swiped out with. She has a valid season ticket covering her in any London zones, rail and tube.

She is adamant that she could not find a ticket machine at the station and the fact that she asked in the coffee shop surely shows that she didn't board the train with the intent not to pay the ticket fare.

As previously stated, we believe her illness had a part to play and she was affected by serious fatigue and disorientation and therefore, she automatically tried to swipe out using her season ticket.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

I agree. It's the touching the Oyster that made the RPI suspect that there was intent to avoid the fare. I'm not sure that Anglia would go for the more serious offence here though, it is far more likely that the Byelaw 18 offence of failure to show a ticket when requested to do so will be Prosecuted if it gets that far, an offence which does not carry a criminal record.

I'd say the usual tactics would apply here - offer to settle out of Court and see what they say.

Thank you all for your responses, I will let her know that the best thing to do might be to send a letter to Anglia offering to settle out of Court and explaining all circumstances and factors. Thank you for also explaining that a failure to show a ticket offence does not carry a criminal record.

 

[Dave1987]

Ok I see now. Yes marks tey does have ticket machines. If you don't mind me asking where is her season ticket valid between? It sounds from your last post that her season ticket would be valid for travel or at least part of it?

 

[oversteer]

So she lives in Feltham (or thereabouts) and has a Travelcard loaded on her Oyster card covering zones 1 to 6.

And on the day in question she happened to travel to London from Marks Tey, could not find the ticket machine at Marks Tey and boarded the train to Liverpool St

Essentially she did not have a valid ticket between Marks Tey and Travelcard zone 6 (effectively Harold Wood). This would be £14.40.

And she then attempted to exit the platform at Liverpool Street by tapping in with her Oyster card, which was noticed by a RPI (ticket inspector). I guess it is possible that other travellers on the train would have been using their Oyster cards to legitimately exit the platform, because the train would have stopped at stations after Harold Wood, making travel possible using an Oyster card.

Had she not travelled from London to Marks Tey already? Did she not buy a return ticket? It would have been cheaper than two singles, and much more convenient than having to find ticket stations at Marks Tey, which I presume is a station she is not familiar with.

It is IMHO quite possible that Greater Anglia will take the view that she intentionally tried to avoid the fare, as it was possible to make the journey on a Oyster card if you started from say Harold Wood. If they go down this path a criminal record is quite possible.

 

[MikeWh]

Had she not travelled from London to Marks Tey already? Did she not buy a return ticket? It would have been cheaper than two singles, and much more convenient than having to find ticket stations at Marks Tey, which I presume is a station she is not familiar with.

It is IMHO quite possible that Greater Anglia will take the view that she intentionally tried to avoid the fare, as it was possible to make the journey on a Oyster card if you started from say Harold Wood. If they go down this path a criminal record is quite possible.

Oooh we really are trying to put the boot in. December 3rd was a Monday so it's possible that she got to Marks Tey by another method and was simply going into work after a weekend away? Most* trains from Marks Tey have only stopped to set down at Stratford within the Oyster area, so someone using an Oyster to exit would be suspiscious.

* Since Jan 2nd it is possible to be using Oyster on a few more of the trains if they called at Shenfiedl, but that wasn't the case in December.

 

[Ferret]

Oooh we really are trying to put the boot in. December 3rd was a Monday so it's possible that she got to Marks Tey by another method and was simply going into work after a weekend away? Most* trains from Marks Tey have only stopped to set down at Stratford within the Oyster area, so someone using an Oyster to exit would be suspiscious.

Of course, what we don't know is what was said to the RPI, and whether there was an interview under caution. If there was intent to avoid the fare demonstrated by that interview, then I'd say there is a fair chance of a s5 Regulation of Railways Act prosecution which *does* carry a criminal record.

I still stand by my original assessment though, that a Byelaw 18 prosecution is more likely in this instance.

 

[oversteer]

Wasn't trying to cast any aspersions on the OP's sister; GA's prosecutions department may see it from more than one angle, and I think it's always important to be mindful of this when writing up the turn of events.

 

[ChantelleO]

Ok I see now. Yes marks tey does have ticket machines. If you don't mind me asking where is her season ticket valid between? It sounds from your last post that her season ticket would be valid for travel or at least part of it?

Her season ticket is valid from zones 1-6 I believe.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

So she lives in Feltham (or thereabouts) and has a Travelcard loaded on her Oyster card covering zones 1 to 6.

And on the day in question she happened to travel to London from Marks Tey, could not find the ticket machine at Marks Tey and boarded the train to Liverpool St

Essentially she did not have a valid ticket between Marks Tey and Travelcard zone 6 (effectively Harold Wood). This would be £14.40.

And she then attempted to exit the platform at Liverpool Street by tapping in with her Oyster card, which was noticed by a RPI (ticket inspector). I guess it is possible that other travellers on the train would have been using their Oyster cards to legitimately exit the platform, because the train would have stopped at stations after Harold Wood, making travel possible using an Oyster card.

Had she not travelled from London to Marks Tey already? Did she not buy a return ticket? It would have been cheaper than two singles, and much more convenient than having to find ticket stations at Marks Tey, which I presume is a station she is not familiar with.

It is IMHO quite possible that Greater Anglia will take the view that she intentionally tried to avoid the fare, as it was possible to make the journey on a Oyster card if you started from say Harold Wood. If they go down this path a criminal record is quite possible.

This is basically the day in summary. She lives near Feltham, travels from there everyday. Happened to be staying at her boyfriend's house that weekend and travelled straight to work on the Monday. She would have been unable to get a return ticket. She had always previously used the ticket office, which was being refurbished at the time and was shut. She even said that there was a note on the ticket office saying people should buy tickets on arrival at destination. She then looked for a ticket machine and asked in a coffee shop. I don't know how she couldn't find a ticket machine if there was one there.

How can she prove that she didn't intentionally board the train to avoid the fare? How can Anglia prove that she did?
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

Of course, what we don't know is what was said to the RPI, and whether there was an interview under caution. If there was intent to avoid the fare demonstrated by that interview, then I'd say there is a fair chance of a s5 Regulation of Railways Act prosecution which *does* carry a criminal record.

I still stand by my original assessment though, that a Byelaw 18 prosecution is more likely in this instance.

I know that she was questioned at Liverpool Street by a ticket officer, I don't fully know what was said. I know that she mentioned that the ticket office was shut (surely they can check this?) and that she tried to locate a ticket machine at the station. This surely demonstrates that there WASN'T an intent to avoid the fare?
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

Wasn't trying to cast any aspersions on the OP's sister; GA's prosecutions department may see it from more than one angle, and I think it's always important to be mindful of this when writing up the turn of events.

Can you provide me with any advice about how to write up the turn of events? Should she be mentioning everything that happened that day, with every influencing factor?

 

[island]

Looking at it from a cynical point of view, the conclusion that one might jump to is that your sister was trying to get away without buying a ticket from Marks Tey to Boundary Zone 6 at £13.80 (not £14.40) because she knew she could get through the barriers with her season ticket. A person wishing to purchase the said ticket would perhaps have approached the barrier staff first.

Just a thought.

 

[maniacmartin]

Where are the TVMs located? Are they inside the ticket office that was closed for refurbishment?

 

[ChantelleO]

Where are the TVMs located? Are they inside the ticket office that was closed for refurbishment?

This is a very interesting question. If anyone knows the answer to this it would be much appreciated.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

Looking at it from a cynical point of view, the conclusion that one might jump to is that your sister was trying to get away without buying a ticket from Marks Tey to Boundary Zone 6 at £13.80 (not £14.40) because she knew she could get through the barriers with her season ticket. A person wishing to purchase the said ticket would perhaps have approached the barrier staff first.

Just a thought.

Presumably this is what Anglia have assumed, that she had the intent to not buy a ticket because she attempted to swipe her season ticket. This is of course, not the case but I understand how it must have come across

 

[Yew]

Where are the TVMs located? Are they inside the ticket office that was closed for refurbishment?

They appear to be outside on this map on NRE
http://www.nationalrail.co.uk/stations/sjp/MKT/images/plans/2517-0000002.jpg

However if the person concerned was coming from car park 2, it may not be immediately obvious as the TVM is on the other side of the ticket office


Image of the Ticket office/TVM, the Night gate is just to the right of the building.
http://www.nationalrail.co.uk/stations/sjp/MKT/images/photos/800/o2517-0000420.jpg

 

[Wath Yard]

Assuming the NRES website is current the ticket machine is outside the booking office.

http://www.nationalrail.co.uk/stations/sjp/MKT/images/photos/800/o2517-0000243.jpg

It is fairly prominent, but if you've not noticed it on the way in, which is pretty believable if you are not looking for it because you intend to purchase a ticket from the booking office, and are in the booking office then it isn't the first place you would look. It seems quite odd that the note on the booking office didn't tell passengers to use the TVM and inform them where it is.

However, the location of the ticket machine seems to be a bit of a side issue. She didn't have a ticket and attempted to leave Liverpool St with an invalid one. As she works, presumably she had a medical note when she was off sick for 6 weeks. If two of the symptoms are fatigue and confusion then proving she had glandular fever and trying to convince GA that was the reason for her mistake would appear, from an outsider's perspective, to have a better chance of success in preventing a prosecution than getting into a debate about the location of the TVM.

 

[oversteer]

Oh yes, £14.40 is the 2013 price.

I'm curious why the RPI didn't issue a penalty fare. Would not that be the usual way to deal with this?

 

[ChantelleO]

Oh yes, £14.40 is the 2013 price.

I'm curious why the RPI didn't issue a penalty fare. Would not that be the usual way to deal with this?

That is exactly what she was expecting. She has decided to get a solicitor in order to get professional help in sorting this all out.

Thank you all for your help though, I will advise her on everything you have told me.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

Assuming the NRES website is current the ticket machine is outside the booking office.

http://www.nationalrail.co.uk/stations/sjp/MKT/images/photos/800/o2517-0000243.jpg

It is fairly prominent, but if you've not noticed it on the way in, which is pretty believable if you are not looking for it because you intend to purchase a ticket from the booking office, and are in the booking office then it isn't the first place you would look. It seems quite odd that the note on the booking office didn't tell passengers to use the TVM and inform them where it is.

However, the location of the ticket machine seems to be a bit of a side issue. She didn't have a ticket and attempted to leave Liverpool St with an invalid one. As she works, presumably she had a medical note when she was off sick for 6 weeks. If two of the symptoms are fatigue and confusion then proving she had glandular fever and trying to convince GA that was the reason for her mistake would appear, from an outsider's perspective, to have a better chance of success in preventing a prosecution than getting into a debate about the location of the TVM.

I shall tell her that it will probably be better going down this route. She has the doctor's certificates to prove her 6 weeks off sick with glandular fever and will presumably be able to get that verified by the doctor too.

 

[Dave1987]

Unfortunately as her oyster was a season ticket for zones 1-6, she had ample opportunity to purchase a ticket at Marks Tey (whether the ticket machine was clearly visible is a side issue unfortunately which you could take up with the company separately). So she travelled without a valid ticket and she used the Oyster card to get through the barriers. I can quite easily see (whether true or not) the RPI's viewing the use of the Oyster card as her deliberately trying to avoid the fare. As I said before touching the Oyster card was a bad move and could prove intent. She really should have approached the RPI's straight away.

 

[W230]

The ticket fiasco happened during her first or second week back at work full time. She was suffering from fatigue, confusion, memory loss, exhaustion and disorientation - all of the symptoms of glandular fever. We believe that this will undoubtedly have affected her state of mind the day of this event.

I'm wondering if maybe writing to GA and mentioning that she had made a genuine error in not buying a ticket and that she was intending to buy a ticket but had not been able to and had ended up travelling without purchasing one, while apologising and volunteering the costs required, may be the best approach with this.

I should add that I don't work in the world of railway prosecutions but I have much experience of the courts from my previous job and am well aware of how quickly courts/prosecutors got bored of people coming up with excuses as to why they have/have not done something. While i'm not saying that's the case here, it was often the case whenenever I was at magistrates with jobs.

A solicitor may end up costing alot of money and i'm not sure I would want to be arguing finer points of Glandular Fever in a court room and would rather keep it out of court at all costs but that's only my opinion. I feel it's the best option as sadly, I think she may have already proved the intent by trying to exit using her Oyster card to pass the barriers.

 

[Dave1987]

I think the W230 is right. A politely worded letter apologising profusely for the offense commited etc, and an offer to pay the fare due plus administration costs would definately be a good course of action. Maybe DaveNewcastle could advise further on any other legal sides of this. But because they may well be able to prove intent of evading the fare (again whether true or not) would they not go for the indictable at court?

 

[W230]

But because they may well be able to prove intent of evading the fare (again whether true or not) would they not go for the indictable at court?

It'll be a summary only offence - don't think they'll be troubing the Crown Courts with it

 

[ChantelleO]

I'm wondering if maybe writing to GA and mentioning that she had made a genuine error in not buying a ticket and that she was intending to buy a ticket but had not been able to and had ended up travelling without purchasing one, while apologising and volunteering the costs required, may be the best approach with this.

I should add that I don't work in the world of railway prosecutions but I have much experience of the courts from my previous job and am well aware of how quickly courts/prosecutors got bored of people coming up with excuses as to why they have/have not done something. While i'm not saying that's the case here, it was often the case whenenever I was at magistrates with jobs.

A solicitor may end up costing alot of money and i'm not sure I would want to be arguing finer points of Glandular Fever in a court room and would rather keep it out of court at all costs but that's only my opinion. I feel it's the best option as sadly, I think she may have already proved the intent by trying to exit using her Oyster card to pass the barriers.

Thanks for your response. She has decided to see a solicitor on Monday and they will take the case from here. She decided this was the best course of action as she doesn't want to do anything to risk ending up with a criminal record. She feels that professional help, regardless of cost, is the best way to proceed. They will be able to help put her case across successful whether she is prosecuted or not.

 

[Dave1987]

It'll be a summary only offence - don't think they'll be troubing the Crown Courts with it

Sorry not a legal expert!! You know what I mean though if they can prove intent to evade the fare you can get a criminal record
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

Thanks for your response. She has decided to see a solicitor on Monday and they will take the case from here. She decided this was the best course of action as she doesn't want to do anything to risk ending up with a criminal record. She feels that professional help, regardless of cost, is the best way to proceed. They will be able to help put her case across successful whether she is prosecuted or not.

Think that is very sensible course of action as it could end up with a criminal record. I will PM DaveNewcastle to get his opinion on this.

 

[Ferret]

Thanks for your response. She has decided to see a solicitor on Monday and they will take the case from here. She decided this was the best course of action as she doesn't want to do anything to risk ending up with a criminal record. She feels that professional help, regardless of cost, is the best way to proceed. They will be able to help put her case across successful whether she is prosecuted or not.

It would be advantageous to find a Solicitor who has a Scooby Doo about railway ticketing law in that case.

 

[ChantelleO]

Sorry not a legal expert!! You what I mean though if the can prove intent to evade the fare you can get a criminal record

Hence the reason she is hiring a solicitor. She does not, under any circumstances want this to happen and knows that she did not board the train with intent to not pay for a ticket. She pays thousands of pounds for season tickets and it doesn't make sense that she'd attempt to get out of paying £15. Thanks for all your replies.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

It would be advantageous to find a Solicitor who has a Scooby Doo about railway ticketing law in that case.

Thanks, that is what she's found.

 

[Dave1987]

Hence the reason she is hiring a solicitor. She does not, under any circumstances want this to happen and knows that she did not board the train with intent to not pay for a ticket. She pays thousands of pounds for season tickets and it doesn't make sense that she'd attempt to get out of paying £15. Thanks for all your replies.

Sorry just putting it how the RPI's will see it. A lot of people try to avoid paying the correct fare by using their oyster card to get throught the barriers even though they have travelled from far outside the Oyster Zone

 

[ChantelleO]

Sorry just putting it how the RPI's will see it. A lot of people try to avoid paying the correct fare by using their oyster card to get throught the barriers even though they have travelled from far outside the Oyster Zone

I totally understand how it can be viewed. But it was a simple mistake and one which could end up, ultimately, ruining her life and everything she has worked for