Prosecution letter

[AJP62]

A friend was stopped by Virgin or NT RPIs for not having a ticket at Macclesfield on xx/xx/2010 having not had time to buy one at Manchester Picc due to queues, it being a Friday and he not normally travelling on a Friday. Details were taken for a caution.

Today he got a letter headed 'southeastern' referring to an alleged incident on South Eatern Trains on xx/xx/2011 (!) saying the case had been authorized for prosecution.

Anyone any ideas if this is a genuine letter with dodgy details or is it a fake using some 'obtained' details?

Also, what is the norm for the original incident? A caution was definately talked about.

 

[yorkie]

This sounds very odd. More info required, I think.

Both Northern and Virgin will sell non-discounted tickets on-board the train, if the guard doesn't have a ticket machine or is unable to get through then the only logical assumption I can make is that they were caught exiting the station having walked past the ticket office at Macclesfield. Is that correct?

Any chance of scanning the letter (blank personally identifiable info such as names)?

 

[AJP62]

He had been spoken to by the guard on the train but they didn't have a ticket machine and said to buy one on exiting Macclesfiled station. He forgot about this and was stopped after the ticket office. Details were taken for a caution.

Letter to be scanned and attached.

No query on being ticketless when stopped, more what is going on and what is the norm for these situations?

 

[bengley]

Why would the letter be from Southeastern? Weird.

 

[Old Timer]

A friend was stopped by Virgin or NT RPIs for not having a ticket at Macclesfield on xx/xx/2010 having not had time to buy one at Manchester Picc due to queues, it being a Friday and he not normally travelling on a Friday. Details were taken for a caution.

Today he got a letter headed 'southeastern' referring to an alleged incident on South Eatern Trains on xx/xx/2011 (!) saying the case had been authorized for prosecution.

Anyone any ideas if this is a genuine letter with dodgy details or is it a fake using some 'obtained' details?

Also, what is the norm for the original incident? A caution was definately talked about.

I think there is more to this than meets the eye.

Firstly Guards or Revenue Protection staff do not take details of passengers for the issue "Cautions".

If you are on a train without a ticket, the Guards will normally issue you with a ticket, and where there is a penalty scheme in place, the relevant penalty. Virgin will normally issue a full fare ticket end of story.

I find it very hard to believe that a Virgin trains Train Manager did NOT have a ticket machine - sorry

If someone is unable to pay the fare then the matter would be reported and they would be written to and asked to pay.

ONLY if there a very sound reasons for doing so would someone be reported for further action.

You say your friend was told by the Guard to pay on exit, yet they "forgot". Sorry but I find this somewhat hard to believe, especially as I imagine the Train Manager started his rounds after Stockport, and from there to Macclesfield is a short hop. Maybe your friend has a short memory retention.

The whole story strikes me very much along the lines of either someone being reported for deliberate fare evasion, or alternatively failing to reply to a request for payment, which has then been passed forward for civil recovery. People are not reported for Prosecution for civil matters.

 

[TEW]

I remember FGW performing a block before where they had RPIs situated outside a station and they checked tickets after people had walked past the ticket office, and people found without tickets having travelled were reported for prosecution iirc. The local press didn't think it was a fair tactic when they got hold of the story.

 

[Ferret]

Firstly Guards or Revenue Protection staff do not take details of passengers for the issue "Cautions".

OT - some company's RPIs are PACE-trained, have warrant badges and can do interviews under caution. They'll take name/address details, and then will go through the usual 'you do not have to say anything unless you wish to do so' rigmarole. After asking the person if they understand the caution, they then go on to ask a series of questions to establish if there was any intent to avoid the fare.

It sounds to me like the OP's friend may have encountered a PACE-trained RPI who has then interviewed that person under caution, and then reported them for prosecution. How Southeastern fit into it God alone knows!


--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

I remember FGW performing a block before where they had RPIs situated outside a station and they checked tickets after people had walked past the ticket office, and people found without tickets having travelled were reported for prosecution iirc. The local press didn't think it was a fair tactic when they got hold of the story.

The local press obviously condone faredodging then! If you haven't paid at the point of origin, or on the train, the law requires you to pay at the destination ticket office. If the local press have a problem with the law, then perhaps they should either discuss the matter with an MP who I'm sure will be delighted to tell them where to get off, or alternatively sod off and live in a country where theft is tolerated. Have I made my point?

 

[Flamingo]

I find it very hard to believe that a Virgin trains Train Manager did NOT have a ticket machine - sorry

They are a temperamental piece of kit at times, and will not work on occasions. Also, they do not withstand the four-foot drop test.

If anything like my depot, there are the bare number available that are required, so if any are off for repair (see above), then the last one to book on goes without.

 

[RPI]

I remember FGW performing a block before where they had RPIs situated outside a station and they checked tickets after people had walked past the ticket office, and people found without tickets having travelled were reported for prosecution iirc. The local press didn't think it was a fair tactic when they got hold of the story.

We nearly always work this way at FGW, if someone has left the station then they wouldn't have paid their fare! The said press article (the West Briton I believe) was actually quite an impartial article which actually set out both sides of the story, needless to say that the success rate in court from those blocks were 100%! It also says a lot that the station where it happened is now barriered.

In the OP's case, Virgin West Coast contract out their prosecutions to Southeastern which explains the letter from them, FGW do the prosecutions for TPE and there are many other TOC's who contract out prosecution matters.

 

[nedchester]

I remember FGW performing a block before where they had RPIs situated outside a station and they checked tickets after people had walked past the ticket office, and people found without tickets having travelled were reported for prosecution iirc. The local press didn't think it was a fair tactic when they got hold of the story.

To be devils advocate here could the passengers not have a ticket once passed the ticket office due to putting it in the bin (OK I know many stations don't have bins)

I assume there is a limit to where you can be asked to show your ticket to a member of rail staff.

A bit off topic but I remember back in 1985 when 37s were doing the Cambrian trains when a well known West Midlands 'desperate' TTI (as they were then) used to grip the platform at Caersws as one of the Aberystwyth trains stopped there and a lot of bashers got off. One Saturday the train stopped short and the TTI could get off and the bashers got off and headed for the pub. The TTI then tried to grip the chip shop in the town. He asked for my ticket in the main street, I told him to f*** off. I returned to the station and he asked me again to which I said "Certainly" and showed him my valid ticket!!!

 

[142094]

To be devils advocate here could the passengers not have a ticket once passed the ticket office due to putting it in the bin (OK I know many stations don't have bins)

I don't know the specifics of the station concerned but I'm guessing there must be somewhere beyond the ticket office and before the exit that they could still legally check tickets. For example on the TW Metro, the compulsory ticket zone only ends when you leave the station (and to leave the station you have to go past a ticket machine or barrier). That is why where bins are provided on the platforms they have big stickers saying:

"NO TICKETS - Retain for Inspection"

 

[RPI]

the station in question had at the time 3 exits, one side exit that was easy to block, the main entrance where the RPI's used to stand on the forecourt which was still railway property, and the low fence was the third exit where the most determined would jump over, usually 2 plain clothes RPI's were waiting on the other side!

 

[Ferret]

To be devils advocate here could the passengers not have a ticket once passed the ticket office due to putting it in the bin (OK I know many stations don't have bins)

I presume that if you are still on railway premises, then they are entitled to ask to see your ticket! If you've thrown away your ticket, then more fool you!

 

[Old Timer]

OT - some company's RPIs are PACE-trained, have warrant badges and can do interviews under caution. They'll take name/address details, and then will go through the usual 'you do not have to say anything unless you wish to do so' rigmarole. After asking the person if they understand the caution, they then go on to ask a series of questions to establish if there was any intent to avoid the fare.

It sounds to me like the OP's friend may have encountered a PACE-trained RPI who has then interviewed that person under caution, and then reported them for prosecution. How Southeastern fit into it God alone knows!

The OP was suggesting that their friends details "were taken for a caution", i.e like a formal Police "Caution", rather than being cautioned, but yes I agree it sounds very much like a S5 prosecution, which if it is makes the OPs post somewhat less than factual.

 

[mathmo]

If you haven't paid at the point of origin, or on the train, the law requires you to pay at the destination ticket office.

At the risk of going off-topic, can I ask where the law says this? Unless there are barriers, I would guess a large proportion of the population would be happy to walk out of a station without a ticket if they'd got that far. It's easily possible to get that far without doing anything wrong (though this case is slightly different as there were facilities, just long queues).

 

[moonrakerz]

I don't know the specifics of the station concerned but I'm guessing there must be somewhere beyond the ticket office and before the exit that they could still legally check tickets. For example on the TW Metro, the compulsory ticket zone only ends when you leave the station (and to leave the station you have to go past a ticket machine or barrier). That is why where bins are provided on the platforms they have big stickers saying:

"NO TICKETS - Retain for Inspection"

Another case of a TOC making up its own rules for a CTA ????

"CTAs can cause confusion if there are no barriers at the entrance to the platforms because people think that they are free to walk onto the platforms without a ticket. So it is very important that a CTA is clearly marked so that people know they must have a ticket or platform ticket before they enter that area." (DfT Rules for CTA)

Usually the ticket barriers.............not the entrance/exit to the station - unless clearly identified as such

 

[AJP62]

In the OP's case, Virgin West Coast contract out their prosecutions to Southeastern which explains the letter from them, FGW do the prosecutions for TPE and there are many other TOC's who contract out prosecution matters.

That's interesting about Southeastern. Here's the letter that was received. The blanked date was November 2011 (!), and it refers to an incident on South Eastern Trains which is what got him wondering if it was dodgy. Also the bit under the signature is cut off on the original letter and there are no phone numbers which also raised suspicion. Just wondered if it was a 'phishing' letter as it asks for personal details.

 

[Flamingo]

At the risk of going off-topic, can I ask where the law says this? Unless there are barriers, I would guess a large proportion of the population would be happy to walk out of a station without a ticket if they'd got that far. It's easily possible to get that far without doing anything wrong (though this case is slightly different as there were facilities, just long queues).

That doesn't make it right, though, and would be an interesting defence in court, I would imagine.

It's one that I often hear, though "If there are no barriers you don't need a ticket", usually followed by "innit"

 

[nedchester]

That's interesting about Southeastern. Here's the letter that was received. The blanked date was November 2011 (!), and it refers to an incident on South Eastern Trains which is what got him wondering if it was dodgy. Also the bit under the signature is cut off on the original letter and there are no phone numbers which also raised suspicion. Just wondered if it was a 'phishing' letter as it asks for personal details.

I suspect that a good solicitor could get it thrown out of court by virtue of the date being wrong and also saying the incident happened on South Eastern Trains.

Have to say it's a pretty sloppy letter with two obvious flaws in the facts?

 

[Ferret]

At the risk of going off-topic, can I ask where the law says this? Unless there are barriers, I would guess a large proportion of the population would be happy to walk out of a station without a ticket if they'd got that far. It's easily possible to get that far without doing anything wrong (though this case is slightly different as there were facilities, just long queues).

Well, these words should provide something of a clue, as posted by RPI in this thread:

'We nearly always work this way at FGW, if someone has left the station then they wouldn't have paid their fare! The said press article (the West Briton I believe) was actually quite an impartial article which actually set out both sides of the story, needless to say that the success rate in court from those blocks were 100%! It also says a lot that the station where it happened is now barriered.'

All of those cases provide a precedent for future judges to follow. It constitutes what is known as case law! That's where the law says you must purchase a ticket at your destination station if you haven't done so already, assuming that office is open of course.

 

[AJP62]

The OP was suggesting that their friends details "were taken for a caution", i.e like a formal Police "Caution", rather than being cautioned, but yes I agree it sounds very much like a S5 prosecution, which if it is makes the OPs post somewhat less than factual.

Right the full story as relayed again tonight by mate!

He had only started working on Fridays having been on short weeks until then. Uses Virgin trains to/from Manchester so he can get cheaper Virgin only trains. However, going in during the peak you can't get the cheapest options which is peak single in and cheaper single back so he buys single in the morning and single at Man P to come back.

On this Friday there had been a couple of 'early doors' beers and when he got to the station there were the usual Friday queues that he wasn't expecting so he just jumped on the train. When tickets were checked he said he didn't have one and the guy said that machine was at other end of train so to pay on arrival in Macclesfield. This is where he went wrong, for whatever reason, and he just left the station.

As he went out of the doors after the ticket windows onto the road he was stopped by some inspectors who took his details 'for a caution' and said he would receive something through the post.

When the attached letter arrived he wondered if it was dodgy due to the content which is what I was asking about rather than whether he was in the wrong.

BTW - genuine friend, wish I could be whisked into Masnchester by Pendo each day rather than driving halfway across Cheshire! Must be one of the fastest commutes in the North.

 

[yorkie]

I would seek legal advice.

Could you say "No" to being the person who travelled, on the basis that you are not the person who travelled on SET in 2011? I don't know.

Is it best not to answer? I don't know

it may be the case that correcting them now mean they can correct it before it goes to court? In which case it may be best not to respond? I don't know.

Are they allowed to apprehend people when they step onto the road? Surely not, but again I don't know.

Seek legal advice but please keep us informed.

 

[Ferret]

I would seek legal advice.

Could you say "No" to being the person who travelled, on the basis that you are not the person who travelled on SET in 2011? I don't know.

Is it best not to answer? I don't know

it may be the case that correcting them now mean they can correct it before it goes to court? In which case it may be best not to respond? I don't know.

Are they allowed to apprehend people when they step onto the road? Surely not, but again I don't know.

Seek legal advice but please keep us informed.

By the words 'stepped out onto the road', I suspect he means the station forecourt at Macc. That's probably still railway property as it isn't on the main road.

It sounds to me like he's bang to rights, but it's well worth seeking legal advice on the matter.

 

[scotsman]

At the risk of going off-topic, can I ask where the law says this? Unless there are barriers, I would guess a large proportion of the population would be happy to walk out of a station without a ticket if they'd got that far. It's easily possible to get that far without doing anything wrong (though this case is slightly different as there were facilities, just long queues).

NRCoC - You must purchase a ticket at the first opportunity

 

[Birdbrain]

Interesting debate. So what would happen if you boarded at a station that was not in a PF zone and the guard was too busy dealing with other customers & safety tasks. You arrive at the destination station still without a ticket and the station only has a Ticket Machine. Would you be expected to buy a ticket from the machine to the station you boarded at?

 

[AJP62]

Any one know what the follow up to these letters is? Just a request for fare and 'expenses' or does it lead to prosecution in court. First time he's had it happen.

 

[Ferret]

Any one know what the follow up to these letters is? Just a request for fare and 'expenses' or does it lead to prosecution in court. First time he's had it happen.

I rather suspect he's being prosecuted under the Regulation of Railways Act as he demonstrated intent to avoid the fare by passing an open ticket office. That means he'll be off to the Magistrates Court, and if he's found guilty then it'll cost him around 350-400 quid, based on what I've seen involving prosecutions by my employers. Expensive mistake......

 

[devon_metro]

I would suspect they have rather snookered themselves what with the incident happening in the future and on a different train company. I'm sure it would be very very easy to prove in court that you didn't travel on South Eastern trains on the xx xx 2011!

 

[yorkie]

Any one know what the follow up to these letters is? Just a request for fare and 'expenses' or does it lead to prosecution in court. First time he's had it happen.

As Ferret says, by ignoring the opportunity at the destination station, he could get a criminal record. This would be visible to any employers doing a CRB check. I understand the record only lasts for a certain number of years but I believe an enhanced check would always find it. I know of someone who, when aged about 15, was found with tools to open up unwanted computers left in a skip, to see if any parts were worth keeping (back in the days when spare computer parts could have a reasonable value!) and the police deemed the tools, including a knife (clearly not intended for use on a person) to be sufficient to give him a caution, they told him as soon as he was 18 it would be off his record. They lied. When he applied for a job years later, it was still on his record, the employer found out about it and told him he should have told them.

So it is well worth spending money on a good lawyer to get out of this situation if he wants a decent job.

 

[Ferret]

I would suspect they have rather snookered themselves what with the incident happening in the future and on a different train company. I'm sure it would be very very easy to prove in court that you didn't travel on South Eastern trains on the xx xx 2011!

I expect the Prosecutor will correct those details before it gets to Court....