Prosecution letter

[Educa]

was sent a prosecution letter with the option of an out of court settlement for fair evasion even though I have a valid season ticket. I travel from London to Byfleet for work, but I only tap in & out at the London station because they have barriers, and never in Surrey because there are no gates so I just never bother with it . Was on a train recently back to london from Byfleet and was asked to show my ticket, so I pulled out my season ticket which I got from a company benefit and which I pay 78 a week for out of my paycheque, and she tapped it on to something and got at me for for not tapping in and out from Byfleet back to London, then she went on to do a report. Is that correct ? Even as a season ticket holder you have to tap in and tap out ? I thought showing them the season ticket was enough. Well, I just got a letter from the prosecution team to either pay the fine or go to court, any advice?

 

[Haywain]

Can you provide some details of the season ticket? Does it cover the whole journey?

 

[Educa]

Can you provide some details of the season ticket? Does it cover the whole journey?

It covers me from Coulsdon south to Byfleet and new haw. I was in Byfleet and new haw when my ticket was checked but the inspector had an issue because I didn’t tap my ticket at Byfleet and new haw

 

[alholmes]

What type of card is your season ticket held on? Which train operator supplies the card?

 

[Educa]

What type of card is your season ticket held on? Which train operator supplies the card?

What type of card is your season ticket held on? Which train operator supplies the card?

It’s an abellio smart card

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 21 Oct 2023 ==

What type of card is your season ticket held on? Which train operator supplies the card?

This was their reply when I asked them the same question

 

[Fawkes Cat]

A couple more points if you could please:

- is your ticket a Flexi season (valid 8 days in 28) or a 'full' season (valid every day from purchase to its end date)?
- please can you show us the letter you have been sent? Please hide your name, address and so on so the whole internet doesn't get to see your personal details! Seeing the letter will help us to understand quite what the railway think you have done.

 

[WesternLancer]

It’s an abellio smart card

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 21 Oct 2023 ==


This was their reply when I asked them the same question

Hi - to help you I think ppl are going to need more info to understand what you do, and thus offer you the best advice on way forward.

eg
how do you pay your fare from London to Coulsdon South? and do you tap in an out when you make that part of the journey? If so what with.

Can you upload an anonymised copy of the letter sent to you that you mention in your original post? We need to see what it means by 'pay the fine'

With this info forum members will hopefully be able to establish what the ticket inspector believes you did wrong and why they have reported you for a ticket irregularity. They can then advise you if you have not understood how your ticket works, or if the ticket inspector has not understood it, and thus help advise you how to respond to the letter you have been sent.

You will get good advice here but the ticketing system can be complex (as you probably know) so the more people can see, the more they will be able to understand what may have happened and what you should now do about it.

I am not familiar with smart card season tickets, but a paper season ticket would not need tapping in or out (tho it would need putting in a barrier if the barrier at the station was closed when you want to enter or exit the platform)

 

[avid2424]

Coulsdon South is a London Zone 6 station - so guessing fully covered by a London to Byfleet and New Haw season ticket

 

[fandroid]

Abellio Corporate Travel handle a lot of season tickets for employers.

 

[avid2424]

I am meaning “Travelcard type” season ticket

 

[fandroid]

I have SWR and GWR Smartcards. But I don't have a season ticket on either. The conditions of use for the cards do say that holders must tap in and tap out. However I haven't always managed to do that and how it affects the validity of the normal tickets held is totally beyond logic.

Unless the OP's season is a flexi season it's difficult to see how the validity of the ticket held depends on tapping in. Could SWR honestly go before a magistrate and tell them that the OP boarded a train without a valid ticket?

 

[Buzby]

ScotRail similarly introduced ‘smart’ seasons. At the same time they installed Tap in/Out posts at the platform exits but in the main there are no gates to restrict access or exit (except at the main city terminals). I witnessed a heated exchange where this exact argument was ongoing where the user only used the card to exit/enter a gateline - the inspector insisted the terms of use had been breached as the smart card had a requirement to log entry/exit even where there was no gateline - this sounds very similar, so I think the season T&C’s need to be consulted for the real answer.

 

[fandroid]

We are sidetracking here a bit. Could the OP please load an image of the letter they received onto this thread, covering any names that would identify them and covering any reference numbers

 

[Jamiescott1]

I have an annual season ticket on gwr smart card and never tap in. Card gets scanned by gwr rpi at least once a week and they've never said anything.

 

[WesternLancer]

I have SWR and GWR Smartcards. But I don't have a season ticket on either. The conditions of use for the cards do say that holders must tap in and tap out. However I haven't always managed to do that and how it affects the validity of the normal tickets held is totally beyond logic.

Unless the OP's season is a flexi season it's difficult to see how the validity of the ticket held depends on tapping in. Could SWR honestly go before a magistrate and tell them that the OP boarded a train without a valid ticket?

so I don't think we have seen cases on here before of train companies threatening prosecution or requesting out of court settlements for smart card seasons not tapped in - and yet this is probably quite common (not tapping in I mean). If the OP posts more info / their letter I suspect experts on these types of tickets may be able to suggest best course of action ref responding.

 

[fandroid]

Additionally, if this somehow got to court I would have thought that showing that written response from ACT would be enough to get a not guilty verdict.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 21 Oct 2023 ==

Unless the OP's season is a flexi season it's difficult to see how the validity of the ticket held depends on tapping in.

I have looked up validation of flexi-seasons on Smartcards. That process is done before starting the journey and it isn't done by tapping in.

EDIT: @island has pointed out that the above is incorrect. The National Rail site indicates that Flexi seasons can be validated by tapping in. The TOC site I consulted omitted that.

 

[island]

I have looked up validation of flexi-seasons on Smartcards. That process is done before starting the journey and it isn't done by tapping in.

Tapping in is one of the options to validate a flexi-season. It can also be done via a phone app.

All of this is however by the by, and sadly, the forum, as is its wont, has disappeared down some rabbit holes which are of very limited use to the OP.

The OP said they pay £78 a week for a season ticket. An annual season ticket from Byfleet & New Haw to Coulsdon South route not via London is £4,060, which is £78.08 a week. I am guessing this is the ticket the OP holds. This ticket does not require to be tapped in or out.

If this ticket was presented at an inspection at Byfleet & New Haw, then it would be improper to report the OP for prosecution.

We really do need @Educa to confirm that this is the ticket held, and to upload a copy of the letter received (hiding any personal information).

It would also be helpful to know what “London” station is meant – the ticket above is not valid between Clapham Junction and London Terminals, but I understand that some people use “London” more loosely than to mean London Terminals such as Waterloo or Victoria. If the OP was travelling to/from a London terminal whilst holding a ticket not valid to travel that way, there are further issues which we will need to address.

 

[MikeWh]

The OP said they pay £78 a week for a season ticket. An annual season ticket from Byfleet & New Haw to Coulsdon South route not via London is £4,060, which is £78.08 a week. I am guessing this is the ticket the OP holds.

Unless the OP holds an annual and is just giving us the effective weekly cost then this isn't right. An annual season is 40x the weekly rate, which is £101.50, as confirmed in https://www.brfares.com/!faredetail?orig=BFN&dest=CDS&rte=700&tkt=7DS.

 

[island]

Unless the OP holds an annual and is just giving us the effective weekly cost then this isn't right. An annual season is 40x the weekly rate, which is £101.50, as confirmed in https://www.brfares.com/!faredetail?orig=BFN&dest=CDS&rte=700&tkt=7DS.

I suggest that you read the entire thread. The OP says they pay £78 a week through their salary and have a smartcard issued by Abellio Corporate Travel. I came to the very reasonable and very logical conclusion that they hold an annual season ticket. I asked them to confirm this in post 17 just for certainty.

 

[Richardr]

Many employers offer an interest free loan for an annual season ticket - certainly ones I have worked for all my working life have - hence the employee pays for the total annual season ticket by deduction from salary over the year.

 

[Educa]

- is your ticket a Flexi season (valid 8 days in 28) or a 'full' season (valid every day from purchase to its end date)?
- please can you show us the letter you have been sent? Please hide your name, address and so on so the whole internet doesn't get to see your personal details! Seeing the letter will help us to understand quite what the railway think you have done.

No, it’s an annual season ticket. I’ve posted pictures below, it’ll last me until next year.

Not quite sure what they think I have done ? I just didn’t tap in at Byfleet but I have a season ticket that comes out of my paycheque every week!! So why would tapping in and out matter at all! How should I respond to the letter

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 23 Oct 2023 ==

Hi - to help you I think ppl are going to need more info to understand what you do, and thus offer you the best advice on way forward.

eg
how do you pay your fare from London to Coulsdon South? and do you tap in an out when you make that part of the journey? If so what with.

Can you upload an anonymised copy of the letter sent to you that you mention in your original post? We need to see what it means by 'pay the fine'

With this info forum members will hopefully be able to establish what the ticket inspector believes you did wrong and why they have reported you for a ticket irregularity. They can then advise you if you have not understood how your ticket works, or if the ticket inspector has not understood it, and thus help advise you how to respond to the letter you have been sent.

You will get good advice here but the ticketing system can be complex (as you probably know) so the more people can see, the more they will be able to understand what may have happened and what you should now do about it.

I am not familiar with smart card season tickets, but a paper season ticket would not need tapping in or out (tho it would need putting in a barrier if the barrier at the station was closed when you want to enter or exit the platform)

I don’t pay in the exact moment of travel as it comes out of my paycheque every week. I usually tap in from Coulsdon to open the barrier with the season ticket but I never tap in or out at Byfleet as I don’t see the point in it whatsoever . So I take my journey from Coulsdon south to Clapham and from Clapham straight to Byfleet, I don’t travel through London terminals. I’m being asked to pay the £10 plus operational costs because the inspector looked at my ticket and saw my ticket was last tapped in at Coulsdon & in her own words said I’m not ‘using the card’ correctly then she wrote a report about it and I received this letter .

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 23 Oct 2023 ==

I suggest that you read the entire thread. The OP says they pay £78 a week through their salary and have a smartcard issued by Abellio Corporate Travel. I came to the very reasonable and very logical conclusion that they hold an annual season ticket. I asked them to confirm this in post 17 just for certainty.

You are correct, it’s an annual season ticket

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 23 Oct 2023 ==

I have an annual season ticket on gwr smart card and never tap in. Card gets scanned by gwr rpi at least once a week and they've never said anything.

 

[alholmes]

I’d be tempted to email them back, with a copy of your gold record card, advising them that you have an annual season ticket and that there is no requirement to tap in or tap out. and therefore you request that they close the case. If you can get something in writing/email from Abellio to confirm that there’s no requirement to tap in / out then that would help, but shouldn’t be necessary. Crucially, do not indicate acceptance of either Option 1 or Option 2.

 

[Educa]

I have an annual season ticket on gwr smart card and never tap in. Card gets scanned by gwr rpi at least once a week and they've never said anything.

Yep that’s how it’s usually is with me too, they just scan and validate it and leave me alone, not on this occasion tho

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 23 Oct 2023 ==

Tapping in is one of the options to validate a flexi-season. It can also be done via a phone app.

All of this is however by the by, and sadly, the forum, as is its wont, has disappeared down some rabbit holes which are of very limited use to the OP.

The OP said they pay £78 a week for a season ticket. An annual season ticket from Byfleet & New Haw to Coulsdon South route not via London is £4,060, which is £78.08 a week. I am guessing this is the ticket the OP holds. This ticket does not require to be tapped in or out.

If this ticket was presented at an inspection at Byfleet & New Haw, then it would be improper to report the OP for prosecution.

We really do need @Educa to confirm that this is the ticket held, and to upload a copy of the letter received (hiding any personal information).

It would also be helpful to know what “London” station is meant – the ticket above is not valid between Clapham Junction and London Terminals, but I understand that some people use “London” more loosely than to mean London Terminals such as Waterloo or Victoria. If the OP was travelling to/from a London terminal whilst holding a ticket not valid to travel that way, there are further issues which we will need to address.

I don’t travel through London terminals. I travel from Coulsdon south to Clapham and then connect from Clapham straight to Byfleet and new haw. My journey back is the same just in repeat . The incident with the ticket inspector happened just as we was leaving Byfleet and new haw into Clapham

 

[Fawkes Cat]

Thanks for showing us all this. Just one last thing to check: when you first posted you said

I travel from London to Byfleet for work, but I only tap in & out at the London station because they have barriers, and never in Surrey because there are no gates so I just never bother with it . Was on a train recently back to london from Byfleet and was asked to show my ticket, so I pulled out my season ticket

Quite where do you mean by 'London'? The thing is, if you mean Coulsdon South (which is in London) then I'm totally with the consensus that the railway have got it wrong, and you need to point this out to them - but if you mean somewhere further into the city, then there may be a problem.

 

[Educa]

I’d be tempted to email them back, with a copy of your gold record card, advising them that you have an annual season ticket and that there is no requirement to tap in or tap out. and therefore you request that they close the case. If you can get something in writing/email from Abellio to confirm that there’s no requirement to tap in / out then that would help, but shouldn’t be necessary. Crucially, do not indicate acceptance of either Option 1 or Option 2.

This was their response to the question. I even called southwestern railway themselves and they said there’s no need to tap in or out if you hold a season ticket

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 23 Oct 2023 ==

Thanks for showing us all this. Just one last thing to check: when you first posted you said

Quite where do you mean by 'London'? The thing is, if you mean Coulsdon South (which is in London) then I'm totally with the consensus that the railway have got it wrong, and you need to point this out to them - but if you mean somewhere further into the city, then there may be a problem.

I mean Coulsdon south and I travel to Clapham then connect to Byfleet

 

[alholmes]

This was their response to the question. I even called southwestern railway themselves and they said there’s no need to tap in or out if you hold a season ticket

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 23 Oct 2023 ==


I mean Coulsdon south and I travel to Clapham then connect to Byfleet

Excellent - Send that attachment as well.

I’d hope that someone in the SWR prosecution team will quickly realise their error when you send them the evidence, but obviously come back here if they still raise an issue.

 

[Fawkes Cat]

Excellent - Send that attachment as well.

I’d hope that someone in the SWR prosecution team will quickly realise their error when you send them the evidence, but obviously come back here if they still raise an issue.

I'd agree with this. Quite simply, you've done nothing wrong. Do your best to persuade the railway of this (in my view, polite persuasion is more likely to be successful than angrily standing on your rights) but if necessary be prepared to attend court, plead not guilty and put your case forward to the magistrates or judge. I would expect you to win.

 

[fandroid]

NRCoT says that holders of tickets on Smartcards must abide by the terms set by the issuers. SWR terms and conditions for Smartcards say that users must tap in and out for every journey. However, it's an Abellio Smartcard and they've stated in writing to the OP that tapping in and out is not required.

I suspect that someone in SWR prosecutions dept has got it into their heads that a ticket is not "valid" if no tap in occurred for the journey being undertaken.

Whatever the technicalities are concerning the TOC's terms, it's beyond belief that they would even contemplate threatening court action for omitting an action that makes not the tiniest bit of practical difference. It's a valid ticket in every other way - it's the right one for the journey. It was in the OP's possession when they boarded the train for that journey and every previous journey. Asking them to pay "fare avoided" is a crazy joke.

It's almost as if the terms for holding a paper season ticket included a requirement to salute the station clock before boarding a train.


I agree with much of the advice given here. Send SWR prosecutions dept the evidence concerning the season ticket held and the photo card too, plus the communications from both Abellio and SWR advising them that there's no need to tap in.

If that doesn't make them see sense get back here and we'll consider what other help can be given

 

[Educa]

Update on this case guys!!! I sent all the evidence and they realised how ridiculous they’re being!! They closed the case . Thanks for all your help guys.

 

[alholmes]

That’s excellent news. Thanks for coming back to us with the update.