Prosecution letter - FCC

[Tarap5]

Hi, need some advice.
My 18year old daughter went out with friends and was in rush to get train Thursday evening so thought it was acceptable to get on train without a ticket and to pay at other end. Before getting to her destination she was stopped and asked for on spot fine of £20.00 some of her mates paid, but unfortunately she only had £10 which wasn't enough, so was told they would write to her. They did and she apologised explaining she had evey intention to pay and relishes it Was a silly mistake and is wiling to pay a fine. She now has another letter saying we've taken your letter into consideration and am now summons you to magistrates court, letter with details will follow in post.
What is this girl to do, I'm so mad with her we haven't spoken which is a shame, and she's been punished enough, and truly knows what she has done, any advice is much appreciated, I'm going very grey with worry.

 

[bb21]

What was the journey?

Who is the letter from?

 

[Tarap5]

Biggleswade to stevenage
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
It's was Biggleswade to Stevenage late night .
Thank you for replying so promptly much appreciated
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
Today's letter is from first capital connect
Prosecutions department
Kings cross.
No name on it just a signature which is difficult to read.

 

[bb21]

The single fare was £5.50. It sounded to me like the RPI charged them a Penalty Fare of £20 each (correctly).

Since your daughter did not have enough money on her, was she asked to make the minimum payment (which would be £5.50 in this case) and pay the rest in a few days' time? This would have been the normal procedure.

 

[Tarap5]

She was asked to pay full among of £20.00 only and no offer of some of it, no choice £20.00 in full or letter.

 

[34D]

Did she show the inspector that she only had £10 on her?

 

[bb21]

It is a shame that she was not given the opportunity to make the minimum payment on the spot. Unfortunately the RPI does have the authority to report her instead of a Penalty Fare if anything more than an innocent mistake is suspected. There could also be other reasons why the RPI deemed it worthy of reporting however I am not going to go into the details of it as I would just be speculating.

Does the last letter you received contain any information as to which legislation she would be prosecuted under? Not all of them carry a criminal record on conviction. I think it is likely by the sound of it that she would be prosecuted under the Railway Byelaws, which should not result in a criminal record if found guilty under. That said, it does depend on a number of other factors such as whether she incriminated herself further in her conversation with the RPI on the spot and in her replies to their first letter.

If you don't know what legislation they are prosecuting your daughter under, it would be best waiting till the summons have arrived.

If you are willing to settle the matter out-of-court with FCC for a fee, there is always the possibility that it could happen, typically for a 3-figure sum although it does depend on the specifics of each case. They have no obligation to accept one, however they are a private company after all, and if the price is right... They may decide to make an example of her, nevertheless for a first-time offence, they have been quite willing to accept an out-of-court settlement if other past cases on here are to go by.

 

[Squaddie]

My 18year old daughter went out with friends and was in rush to get train Thursday evening so thought it was acceptable to get on train without a ticket and to pay at other end. Before getting to her destination she was stopped and asked for on spot fine of £20.00 some of her mates paid, but unfortunately she only had £10 which wasn't enough, so was told they would write to her.

Why would an 18-year-old going out for the evening only take £10 with her, if the train fare alone was going to be £5.50?

 

[Flamingo]

Where was the destination station, and was it somewhere she could have realistically bought a ticket on arrival at that time? That could also influence their acceptance of her story.

 

[Urban Gateline]

Why would an 18-year-old going out for the evening only take £10 with her, if the train fare alone was going to be £5.50?

Ladies never pay for drinks do they, we buy it for them

 

[Squaddie]

Where was the destination station, and was it somewhere she could have realistically bought a ticket on arrival at that time? That could also influence their acceptance of her story.

The OP has said that the destination was Stevenage, and that it was a "late night" journey. According to National Rail, Stevenage ticket office closes at 2030 on Thursdays, so there would have been no opportunity to purchase there.

Another factor would be whether this was the outward journey on a night out or the return journey after a night out. If it was the return journey then you'd expect them to have the return portions of the tickets they (presumably) bought on the way out.

 

[MikeWh]

Why would an 18-year-old going out for the evening only take £10 with her, if the train fare alone was going to be £5.50?

Why are some people obsessed with how much cash others carry? I could quite understand a young female not wanting to have more than was needed.

 

[Urban Gateline]

The OP has said that the destination was Stevenage, and that it was a "late night" journey. According to National Rail, Stevenage ticket office closes at 2030 on Thursdays, so there would have been no opportunity to purchase there.

Another factor would be whether this was the outward journey on a night out or the return journey after a night out. If it was the return journey then you'd expect them to have the return portions of the tickets they (presumably) bought on the way out.

There may be an opportunity if the TVM's now allow purchase of tickets from another origin ie Buying Biggleswade to Stevenage at Stevenage! Although this doesn't relate to the OP whose Daughter was caught on-train anyway.

 

[rdwarr]

Another factor would be whether this was the outward journey on a night out or the return journey after a night out. If it was the return journey then you'd expect them to have the return portions of the tickets they (presumably) bought on the way out.

I've lived in Biggleswade. It's unlikely to be the latter.

There are frequent RPI blockades at Stevenage as many young people from nearby towns visit the Leisure Park which is adjacent to the station. Last week there was a queue of about 20 waiting to get sorted out.

 

[jon0844]

Even if she fancied her chances at paying nothing, £10 surely isn't enough for a night out or to cover any emergency anyway?

What if she needed to get a taxi, missing the last train, or something else happened? You wouldn't want a situation to arise as I witnessed further down the line at Hatfield a couple of years ago. Here, late at night, was a girl (that had somehow lost her skirt and was running around in her underwear) going up to taxis in the rank and, saying she had no money, demanded to be taken for free and shouting 'If he doesn't take me and I get raped, it will be his fault'. The taxis all refused.

She then got on a bus, who did let her travel, after the driver clearly figured it wasn't worth the hassle of trying to throw her off, or wondering about the consequences of her going to the media later on to say she'd been turned away as a vulnerable female (read; wasted).

Not a situation I would recommend for anyone, male or female, so carrying suitable funds or a means to get access to more funds would be essential. And if she had a debit or credit card, she could have paid the PF in full (but an RPI isn't likely to demand to see inside her purse).

My personal guess is that she probably did have a bit more money but didn't want to 'give it up'. However, if the fare was £5.50 though, why wasn't she offered the chance to pay just that (or double the standard fare) and the rest later? And why didn't one of her mates offer to lend her the money to avoid the situation moving from an easy penalty fare to potential court action or a hefty out of court settlement. Some mates!!

 

[Tarap5]

I agree my daughter was going to be collected after night out, she only has part time job and little money, nevertheless, still enjoysnherself, we do not have to have money to have a good time, and does this make her guilty ? NO !!!! Shame on you xxx
Do I ask about you income income? No!

She is let into club for free as knows the owners, and only had train fare. She doesn't drink, well only fizzy as that free, for her. Shes a good girl and means no harm, may be you should have been an accountant! do not make assumptions!!!! You make my blood boil. I can have dam good time for pennies !!!!

Why are some people obsessed with how much cash others carry? I could quite understand a young female not wanting to have more than was needed.

Here her thank you for your support unlike others xxx

If your quote was aimed at me your are wrong, she did intend!!! please do not judge and guess and make remarks that are untrue. You do not know my daughter so please keep your nasty remarks to yourself. This does not make matter better for us at this time, we have had enough to deal with this year thank you very much !!!! I'd rathe rid you didn't have anything positive to say then not to post ! thank you!

 

[bb21]

I am going to remind everyone to stay on topic and refrain from speculation. Some of the posts are not really contributing much.

I have also said this before. If you don't want to help, or are unwilling to help, then don't get involved in the thread.

 

[ian959]

Shes a good girl and means no harm

With all due respect, boarding a train without a ticket is against the law so your daughter is therefore not a good girl all the time. The more I read your original post the more I get the feeling there is a little bit more to the story that we are not being told. It seems odd to me that the RPI would not have accepted the fare portion of the Penalty Fare with the rest to be paid later.

However since a summons is being issued then your best choice would be to contact a lawyer with some experience in railway law. Failing that I would advise that you attend the court of the day specified and talk to the prosecutor beforehand and ask to settle the matter out of court for an amount to cover their costs and the train fare.

If the summons is under the Regulation of Railways Act then this would be especially advantageous as bb21 has already explained in post #7.

 

[Squaddie]

If the OP has been offended by something I've written then I apologise: no offence was intended.

However, speaking in purely general terms, I think it is reasonable to ask whether a group of teenagers travelling on a train without tickets would take the trouble to pay at their destination were they not caught by a revenue protection inspector en route. And, again in general terms (because I accept fully what the OP has said), the amount of money and other means of payment carried by someone in this situation may be an indication of intention to avoid payment.

In this case, FCC's policy is quite clear:

Can I pay at my destination if I am in a rush?

No. If you board a train without a valid ticket, then you may have to pay a Penalty Fare.

So the only real issue here is whether the OP's daughter was treated unfairly in not being allowed to pay the penalty fare later.

 

[34D]

If the OP has been offended by something I've written then I apologise: no offence was intended.

However, speaking in purely general terms, I think it is reasonable to ask whether a group of teenagers travelling on a train without tickets would take the trouble to pay at their destination were they not caught by a revenue protection inspector en route. And, again in general terms (because I accept fully what the OP has said), the amount of money and other means of payment carried by someone in this situation may be an indication of intention to avoid payment.

In this case, FCC's policy is quite clear:
So the only real issue here is whether the OP's daughter was treated unfairly in not being allowed to pay the penalty fare later.

And if part paying wasn't offered, then was there a reason why not?

 

[talltim]

Have none of you lot heard of
Getting more money out of the cash machine later?
Paying by switch (or whatever it's called now) at the bar?

 

[Squaddie]

Have none of you lot heard of
Getting more money out of the cash machine later?
Paying by switch (or whatever it's called now) at the bar?

Did your daughter have a debit card on her when she was stopped by the RPI?

If so, it also raises the question of why she was not given the option of paying the penalty fare by card. Did she simply not realise that she could do that, when she told the RPI she had insufficient money to pay the fare?

 

[Flamingo]

Right, we can rule out "she intended to pay at the other end" as there were no facilities., so as the OP's daughter had boarded without paying, intent to travel without paying is easily proved.

Don't rule out the possibility that the OP's daughter failed the attitude test when asked to pay a penalty fare when caught fare-dodging, which is the reason they were reported for prosecution.

As a general point, I hate dealing with teenage/twenty-something year old females with ticketing issues, too often they have an attitude of "I'm daddy's little princess, how dare you tell me I'm in the wrong", even when you're trying to help them. I think staff on here will back me up with this.

 

[tony6499]

I think the problem is that there is only one side of the story here and there must be a reason why it has been escalated to prosecution.

The OP says some of her friends paid the Penalty Fare so presume the others didn't , have they been reported for prosecution too ?

 

[DaveNewcastle]

I think the problem is that there is only one side of the story here and there must be a reason why it has been escalated to prosecution.

It's actually a little more complex that that - we have the 'side of the story' which Tarap5 has received from the daughter.
Some offence was taken by Tarap5 (unintentionally given, I believe) at the suggestion that the daughter might not have been wholly honest; but the fact remains that the daughter will have presented the story to Tarap5 with a particular slant, as would anyone else, - a point of view of her own, perhaps in all honesty, but not without a point of view, and certainly not with the point of view of the Inspector.

So with the very best will in the world, Tarap5 cannot ever tell us what impression the Inspector will have received of their young passenger that evening when asked about their lack of ticket. We're now 3 steps removed from that impression.

We don't know what questions were asked, what answers were given and in what tone of voice they were asked and answered.

 

[jon0844]

If we're now told she could have had a card to pay for things (and it's stupid to assume she only had cash as was originally stated) , she had the means to pay the penalty fare.

And if she didn't have a card, my point stands about it being very naive to go out for a night out with just £10, knowing more more than half of that was to be spent on the train alone.

If this causes offence, so be it, but it's nothing to what would be argued in court if it ever got there.

Sent from my C6903 using Tapatalk 4

 

[MikeWh]

If we're now told she could have had a card to pay for things...

We haven't. Someone suggested that as a reason why she might not have had much cash, then the next poster wrongly assumed that it had been the OP saying that.

 

[jon0844]

Ah, sorry. But if she hadn't got a card and therefore any means to get more money, I feel £4.50 (after paying for the ticket, which was presumably intended) is not enough money to go out with.

This is a problem with Tapatalk in that it doesn't show who said the quote you read on a mobile.

 

[Squaddie]

We haven't. Someone suggested that as a reason why she might not have had much cash, then the next poster wrongly assumed that it had been the OP saying that.

Oops... you're right. I mistook the author of that post for the OP.

 

[Parham Wood]

Many people, particularly infrequent travellers and the young, do not understand the legal implications of boarding a train without a ticket. My own children did not at 18 as I was also unware of the regulations - I thought (incorrectly) there had to be intent to avoid payment, so I did not advise them. Fortunately they made very few rail journeys at that age. I therefore maintain many people board without a ticket in good faith intending to pay enroute simply because they do not realise the consequences. The practice of guards selling tickets on trains to passengers from non-ticket vending stations and also without penalty to those who could have bought before buying is a factor in making people believe they can buy on board. The warnings about ticketless travel are not really noticeable. People just do not see these even at the platform entrance and if they do the wording, as I have said before, gives rise to the impression (if you intended to pay enroute) that you would not be prosecuted -"" I do not intend to defraud so how can I be prosecuted?"" Clearly more education of the public is required to avoid turning intending law abiding passengers into criminals and also better, shall I say blunter signs that stand out, but TOCs do not seem too concerned by this.

Then we have the situation with the OP's daughter. She was unable to pay the fine but would I understand have paid it by post and did have the money to pay the fare, so her friends who could pay get off lightly and she, for the sake of £10, is prosecuted. It would be interesting to know whether the RPI advised her that she could be prosecuted or left her with the idea that she would just be asked to pay the fine by post. If the former I would have hoped her friends would have clubbed together for her fine.

I have just looked at the IRIS RPSS website. This implies that if you were issued with a penalty fare it will say when the fare has to be paid by and this implies you can pay later. In which case why was a penalty fare not issued or does this not apply here?