Prosecution for zero extra fare?

[Stompehh]

Hi all,

Posting on behalf of a friend, will try and stick to the template to keep it simple:

The stations where you started & finished your journey;
Reading (RDG) to Filton Abbey Wood (FIT)

The stations where you changed trains (if applicable)
Bristol Parkway (BPW)

If you presented a ticket(s), the information stated under "Ticket type", "From", "To", "Route", and any other relevant details;
Bristol Parkway to Reading SVR

What happened in any encounter with railway staff;
My friend is used to being able to buy tickets on board when travelling on local trains in the Bristol area (we live near Montpelier station) so assumed this was the case on the short hop from BPW to FIT. She was stopped at the exit of FIT by an inspector and asked to buy a ticket, but he took down her details instead. He asked to see her ticket from RDG to BPW which she showed him.

The details of any paperwork with which you were issued.
A "pre-court action" letter was received which I have attached as an image to this post


My friend understands now that she should have bought the ticket beforehand, but I think to not offer a penalty fare in this instance is slightly harsh, bearing in mind:

• The cost of a RDG to BPW ticket is identical to RDG to FIT
• Her ticket would, I believe, have been valid at FIT if she had travelled via Temple Meads as break of journey is permitted
• She offered to buy a ticket straight away

Also, the letter states that the settlement offer includes the fare of £67 - but the only invalid journey was BPW to FIT (which the letter also states at the top) - are they likely to correct this if challenged?

I tried to find a map of GWR's penalty fares scheme to double check which areas are covered but could not - has it been lost in the move to the new website? Finally, can anyone confirm whether there are penalty fares posters within the gateline at BPW - I was there recently and didn't see any but I could well be wrong there.

Thanks for reading, any inputs are appreciated!

 

[najaB]

There is, unfortunately, no right to a Penalty Fare.

 

[Bletchleyite]

The fact that it is zero difference also doesn't technically make any difference to the case (ridiculous though that seems, and it didn't used to be treated like that) - but it does seem to me that the outstanding fare should be £2.30, therefore the total £82.30.

Might be worth paying that sum with an explanatory letter and a copy of the ticket that was held, assuming you still have it?

 

[sheff1]

You say they had a Bristol Parkway to Reading ticket - were they travelling on the return portion ?

 

[Stompehh]

Thanks for the responses so far!

There is, unfortunately, no right to a Penalty Fare.

Understood!

The fact that it is zero difference also doesn't technically make any difference to the case (ridiculous though that seems, and it didn't used to be treated like that) - but it does seem to me that the outstanding fare should be £2.30, therefore the total £82.30.

Might be worth paying that sum with an explanatory letter and a copy of the ticket that was held, assuming you still have it?

The thing that worries me is that, given the amount of bank holidays between now and the 7th Jan deadline, a letter may not be processed before then even if sent now. They could then claim the deadline has been missed if they disagree, and charge the higher costs?

You say they had a Bristol Parkway to Reading ticket - were they travelling on the return portion ?

Yes indeed

 

[Bletchleyite]

The thing that worries me is that, given the amount of bank holidays between now and the 7th Jan deadline, a letter may not be processed before then even if sent now. They could then claim the deadline has been missed if they disagree, and charge the higher costs?

Yes, that is possible. Have you tried contacting them by phone?

 

[najaB]

The thing that worries me is that, given the amount of bank holidays between now and the 7th Jan deadline, a letter may not be processed before then even if sent now. They could then claim the deadline has been missed if they disagree, and charge the higher costs?

Send the letter and get proof of posting. ISTR that a letter is deemed to have been received two working days after it is posted, you can't be held liable if they fail to process it by the deadline.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Thinking on, before paying anything other than the full amount I would suggest contacting them by phone if possible. Then you can be sure they will correct the mistake - otherwise there is a chance they won't and I wouldn't want to see you prosecuted as a result.

 

[gray1404]

Some would say to accept the settlement to avoid any further action, given your friend made an error.

 

[sheff1]

Some would say to accept the settlement of £67 to avoid any further action, given your friend made an error.

The 'settlement' requested is £147. GWR claim this includes £67 for the fare outstanding whereas, in fact, the fare for the journey made without a ticket was £2.30.

 

[najaB]

The 'settlement' requested is £147, whereas the fare for the journey made without a ticket was £2.30.

Indeed, to expand on that they have charged the price of an Anytime single from Reading to Filton Abbeywood - treating the entire journey as ticketless, rather than just the Bristol Parkway to Filton Abbeywood section.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Indeed, to expand on that they have charged the price of an Anytime single from Reading to Filton Abbeywood - treating the entire journey as ticketless, rather than just the Bristol Parkway to Filton Abbeywood section.

Hence my suggestion to pay £82.30 - the £80 admin fee (seen those before?) plus the actual unpaid fare.

However, doing this without permission may prove a risky strategy.

 

[najaB]

Hence my suggestion to pay £82.30 - the £80 admin fee (seen those before?) plus the actual unpaid fare.

However, doing this without permission may prove a risky strategy.

There is also the often proposed strategy of enclosing two cheques - one for £82.30 and the other for £147 along with a covering letter explaining why only the lesser of the two should be cashed.

 

[Stompehh]

Pleased to report that after a phone call they have agreed to reduce the settlement amount so it includes the correct fare.

 

[Peter Mugridge]

Send the letter and get proof of posting. ISTR that a letter is deemed to have been received two working days after it is posted, you can't be held liable if they fail to process it by the deadline.

If it was me, I would send the letter by Special Delivery - you would then have proof of delivery on the next working day.

 

[sheff1]

Pleased to report that after a phone call they have agreed to reduce the settlement amount so it includes the correct fare.

I should think so too.

For future reference, if your friend is doing a similar journey again they should book a a ticket from Filton Abbeywood to start with. Such a ticket is valid to start or finish short at Parkway.

 

[najaB]

If it was me, I would send the letter by Special Delivery - you would then have proof of delivery on the next working day.

That would give additional peace of mind, but is not necessary. Proof of posting is free and would suffice.

 

[ainsworth74]

For future reference, if your friend is doing a similar journey again they should book a a ticket from Filton Abbeywood to start with. Such a ticket is valid to start or finish short at Parkway.

And if, for whatever reason, they do not have this ticket and need to go to Filton Abbeywood they should go to a ticket office before finishing their return journey and ask for an 'over distance excess'. There shouldn't be any charge but it will give them a valid ticket and avoid this issue. But I would agree that generally it would be easier to just buy the Filton ticket to begin with.

 

[Stompehh]

I should think so too.

For future reference, if your friend is doing a similar journey again they should book a a ticket from Filton Abbeywood to start with. Such a ticket is valid to start or finish short at Parkway.

Indeed, this was one of the first things I said! Well actually, I said to buy to Montpelier, as that offers an even greater range of options for the same price.

 

[Bletchleyite]

And if, for whatever reason, they do not have this ticket and need to go to Filton Abbeywood they should go to a ticket office before finishing their return journey and ask for an 'over distance excess'. There shouldn't be any charge but it will give them a valid ticket and avoid this issue. But I would agree that generally it would be easier to just buy the Filton ticket to begin with.

You can't overdistance excess onto the start of a return ticket, AIUI. The correct fare to have sold would have been the £2.30 single.
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Pleased to report that after a phone call they have agreed to reduce the settlement amount so it includes the correct fare.

Good news. I would suggest paying that promptly, and that will be the end of it. Just don't do it again, as these settlements are not always offered twice.

 

[Peter Mugridge]

That would give additional peace of mind, but is not necessary. Proof of posting is free and would suffice.

Is proof of posting sufficient for legal purposes should a matter ( any matter ) later end up in court? It's not proof of delivery and post does get lost en route.

 

[455driver]

You can't overdistance excess onto the start of a return ticket, AIUI. The correct fare to have sold would have been the £2.30 single.

You are right but I fail to understand the significance, it is on the end of the return journey!

 

[najaB]

Is proof of posting sufficient for legal purposes should a matter ( any matter ) later end up in court? It's not proof of delivery and post does get lost en route.

As I understand it, yes. While Special Delivery would give you additional confidence proof of postage is enough to confirm that you responded in sufficient time to meet a deadline.

 

[Bletchleyite]

You are right but I fail to understand the significance, it is on the end of the return journey!

Same applies - I was under the impression that it was only the destination of the OUT / origin of the RTN that could be changed (and only both at once), if you see what I mean.

 

[gray1404]

Glad you get a better outcome. Would it not be better for them pay by phone using a card. That way no risk of anything getting lost in the post and there will be proof of the payment on the bank statement.

 

[DaleCooper]

As I understand it, yes. While Special Delivery would give you additional confidence proof of postage is enough to confirm that you responded in sufficient time to meet a deadline.

There's no need to go to the expense of Special Delivery, Royal Mail Signed For gives you proof of delivery at a lower cost but at standard delivery times for £1.10 in addition to normal 1st or 2nd Class charges.

 

[bb21]

Same applies - I was under the impression that it was only the destination of the OUT / origin of the RTN that could be changed (and only both at once), if you see what I mean.

On the return portion it is unclear what the "destination" is and can be argued both ways.

In reality if a clerk knows how to do this type of excess, he will probably be happy to excess either end, as the TIS will not place any restriction in that respect, and it is the only sensible way to implement this type of excess imo.

 

[DaveNewcastle]

Is proof of posting sufficient for legal purposes should a matter ( any matter ) later end up in court? It's not proof of delivery and post does get lost en route.

The standard required for the "service of documents" under the Criminal Procedure Rules, Criminal Practice Directions (CPR) is a higher standard than need be applied to this question of responding to an invitation to provide more information in an investigation (before the decision whether or not to begin Court proceedings), but it is a simple enough standard to adopt:

Service by leaving or posting a document
4.4.—(1) A document may be served by addressing it to the person to be served and leaving it at the appropriate address for service under this rule, or by sending it to that address by first class post or by the equivalent of first class post.
(2) The address for service under this rule on—

(a) an individual is an address where it is reasonably believed that he or she will receive it;
(b) a corporation is its principal office, and if there is no readily identifiable principal office then any place where it carries on its activities or business;​

. . .

Date of service
4.11.—(1) A document served under rule 4.3 or rule 4.8 is served on the day it is handed over.
(2) Unless something different is shown, a document served on a person by any other method is served—

(a) in the case of a document left at an address, on the next business day after the day on which it was left;
(b) in the case of a document sent by first class post or by the equivalent of first class post, on the second business day after the day on which it was posted or despatched;​

. . .

Proof of service
4.12. The person who serves a document may prove that by signing a certificate explaining how and when it was served.


Definitions
2.2.—(1) In these Rules, unless the context makes it clear that something different is meant:

‘business day’ means any day except Saturday, Sunday, Christmas Day, Boxing Day, Good Friday, Easter Monday or a bank holiday;​

The Royal Mail 'Signed For' service does not satisfy the requirement for the sender to sign when handing it to the Royal Mail, but a separate note may be made showing the date, time and place, attached to a copy of the receipt, with sender's name and signature.

 

[Peter Mugridge]

There's no need to go to the expense of Special Delivery, Royal Mail Signed For gives you proof of delivery at a lower cost but at standard delivery times for £1.10 in addition to normal 1st or 2nd Class charges.

The trouble is, typically around 8% to 12% of Recorded Deliveries never get signed for.

Incidentally, even if you know a Recorded has been delivered, if there is no signature showing on the RM's track and trace website you can claim the £1.10 Recorded fee back from them as a proof of delivery failure.

 

[DaleCooper]

The trouble is, typically around 8% to 12% of Recorded Deliveries never get signed for.

Incidentally, even if you know a Recorded has been delivered, if there is no signature showing on the RM's track and trace website you can claim the £1.10 Recorded fee back from them as a proof of delivery failure.

I've done that several times and they always send me a book of 6 x 1st class stamps worth £3.78.