Prosecution for something stupid- Will I got to court?

[AMH]

RE: Notice of Intention to Prosecute (First Capital Connect)

i travelled recently from Cambridge to King's Cross, during early morning. i had a valid 'standard' ticket with a railcard for my journey. However i accidentally sat in the First-Class section of the train, rather than the 'standard section'. When the ticket inspector came he took my ticket, saying it wasn't valid. I explained it was. He said I was sitting in First-Class. i said I didn't realise. He said it's written in the carriage when you come in. I didn't bother arguing with him. i could have just moved to the 'standard section' but he started asking a million questions and recording everything down and didn't give me an opportunity to move. He said i could pay the excess fare, which was around £70+ but i didn't have the money to pay it. He said the alternative was for them to write to me, but he said he didn't know what action they would take if they did write.

So I've received the letter (the only communication I've received from FCC). It states that i should write a statement giving my point of view and the intention to prosecute. The 'Details of the Offence' states: "Remain in a reserved seat, berth or train without an appropriate ticket". I did not REMAIN in the seat and would have happily moved, but the inspector did not give me a chance to. I've made tons of journeys with FCC and this has never happened to me. What should i do, write the statement and risk being prosecuted still? Is there a way out? What will happen if I do write the statement?

 

[rdwarr]

It looks as though you were given the opportunity to pay a "Penalty Fare" rather than an "Excess". The First Class fare from Cambridge to Kings X is £36.20 and the penalty fare would be calculated as twice this amount (assuming this was a non-stop train) at £72.40. Does this figure ring a bell? Penalty Fares are charged to passengers who are believed to have made genuine mistakes so it does look like you were getting the benefit of the doubt here.

What worries me (I'm a commuter, not rail staff) is how you could "accidentally" sit in First Class on one of these trains. I believe all trains are "Class 365s" on this route and First Class is totally different to Standard. You have to go through a clearly signed door to get to it, the seats are a different colour and have armrests and there is plenty of signage in there to reinforce the fact that you're in First Class. Added to the claim that you are a frequent FCC traveller you can see how this may be hard for others to believe as well.

Finally we have the definition of the word "remain". I think it means something different in legal terms, similar to "occupy". Imagine if there was no offence committed if everybody was allowed to sit in First Class until being asked to move - nobody would ever buy the tickets.

So best bet is to wait for the letter and then be as honest as possible in the hope of reaching an out of court settlement.

 

[DaveNewcastle]

We can imagine that the word "remain" as used in Byelaw 19 does mean "occupy" but only when used in conjunction with some other fact that must go before it, such as the Inspector first speaking to you, or the Inspector observing you, or even your own apprehension of the Class of seat.
The precise fact does not appear to be defined.

If you occupied the seat after any or all of these 'facts', then you remained in it. It probably isn't going to matter what 'fact' we use to clarify the Byelaw, because it seems clear that you did "remain" in the seat whichever 'fact' we use.

The wording of the Byelaw is:

19. Classes of accommodation, reserved seats and sleeping berths

Except with permission from an authorised person, no person shall remain in any seat, berth or any part of a train where a notice indicates that it is reserved for a specified ticket holder or holders of tickets of a specific class, except the holder of a valid ticket entitling him to be in that particular place.

I'm a bit puzzled by this apparent contradiction:

. . . . I was sitting in First-Class. i said I didn't realise.

. . .

I've made tons of journeys with FCC and this has never happened to me.

The more journeys that a passenger makes with a particular operator, then surely the more familiar they become with distictions such as the difference between first and standard class. Are we really to understand that after 'tons of journeys with FCC' you did not realise that you were sitting in First Class accomodation?

Or did you mean to say that you have made 'tons of journeys' in First Class and never being questioned?

 

[falcon]

RE: Notice of Intention to Prosecute (First Capital Connect)

i travelled recently from Cambridge to King's Cross, during early morning. i had a valid 'standard' ticket with a railcard for my journey. However i accidentally sat in the First-Class section of the train, rather than the 'standard section'. When the ticket inspector came he took my ticket, saying it wasn't valid. I explained it was. He said I was sitting in First-Class. i said I didn't realise. He said it's written in the carriage when you come in. I didn't bother arguing with him. i could have just moved to the 'standard section' but he started asking a million questions and recording everything down and didn't give me an opportunity to move. He said i could pay the excess fare, which was around £70+ but i didn't have the money to pay it. He said the alternative was for them to write to me, but he said he didn't know what action they would take if they did write.

So I've received the letter (the only communication I've received from FCC). It states that i should write a statement giving my point of view and the intention to prosecute. The 'Details of the Offence' states: "Remain in a reserved seat, berth or train without an appropriate ticket". I did not REMAIN in the seat and would have happily moved, but the inspector did not give me a chance to. I've made tons of journeys with FCC and this has never happened to me. What should i do, write the statement and risk being prosecuted still? Is there a way out? What will happen if I do write the statement?

You are under the impression like many, that you have to intend to sit in first class and if you do not then when it is brought to your attention by a person of authority you can just move. It happens all the time with people parking in a disabled bay and then saying they will move when the traffic warden comes.The offense is just being in it whether you know it or not is irrelevant.

 

[transmanche]

However i accidentally sat in the First-Class section of the train, rather than the 'standard section'.

Whilst it might be possible to claim that you assumed 'First' on the anti-macassars related to the company name rather than the class of travel, I can clearly see the first class sign on the glass door.

Picture source: Southern E-Group

 

[island]

The term "remain" in the law means to sit in the seat or stand still in the carriage, or the like. It is more than being or passing through the carriage, but leaving when asked does not mean you did not "remain" there. As you chose not to accept a Penalty Fare notice (which you could have part-paid on the spot and paid the balance within 21 days) the case is likely to be a lot more expensive, if you avoid court.

 

[jon0844]

It's far more obvious now with many more stickers. But some 317s remain rather poor, and it could maybe have been one of these.

But a regular user would have spotted what first class looks like at some point in their time commuting!

 

[sarahj]

At Southern we have recently been informed that when someone is found in first class with a standard ticket, not to just thow them out, but to excess every time. It seems some first class passengers were getting sick of people sitting in first and just getting thrown out with no further penalty. This has led to a few more confrontations. I've had the odd one or two since, including one on a 442 where all the passengers who moan, suddenly burried their heads in their 'evening standards'. That passenger, holding a weekly, said he had a right to sit there as all the other seats were taken (not true). He then left the train at Three Bridges. (heading to Eastbourne).

Not remotely connected, two weeks later they sent out a reminder of the 'avoiding difficult situations' policy. Main plank : walk away.

 

[Flamingo]

Enforce all rules, but don't do anything that might cause complaints, delays, or incident forms.

 

[alastair]

At Southern we have recently been informed that when someone is found in first class with a standard ticket, not to just thow them out, but to excess every time. It seems some first class passengers were getting sick of people sitting in first and just getting thrown out with no further penalty. This has led to a few more confrontations. I've had the odd one or two since, including one on a 442 where all the passengers who moan, suddenly burried their heads in their 'evening standards'. That passenger, holding a weekly, said he had a right to sit there as all the other seats were taken (not true). He then left the train at Three Bridges. (heading to Eastbourne).

Not remotely connected, two weeks later they sent out a reminder of the 'avoiding difficult situations' policy. Main plank : walk away.

Talking about Southern,it does seem ironic that the diesel trains from Brighton to Ashford which actually have a rather good first class(with 2 & 1 seating)are advertised as standard class only which means anyone can sit in FC. On a recent journey it was clear that many people did not know that and if the train is full the guard could usefully point this out.

Last Saturday I travelled on 5 Southern trains (Redhill/Gatwick,Gatwick/Hastings,Hastings/Rye,Rye/Ashford & Tonbridge/Redhill). Only on the last one was any ticket check carried out,on all the other ones the guard did not even walk through the train at all,let alone check or sell tickets. Particularly on the Hastings/Ashford route with many unstaffed stations this seems inexplicable.

I don't often travel on Southern and wondered if this was normal? If guards just stay in the back cab for the whole trip,surely they are not providing the presence which is part of their role?

 

[GodAtum]

At Southern we have recently been informed that when someone is found in first class with a standard ticket, not to just thow them out, but to excess every time. It seems some first class passengers were getting sick of people sitting in first and just getting thrown out with no further penalty. This has led to a few more confrontations. I've had the odd one or two since, including one on a 442 where all the passengers who moan, suddenly burried their heads in their 'evening standards'. That passenger, holding a weekly, said he had a right to sit there as all the other seats were taken (not true). He then left the train at Three Bridges. (heading to Eastbourne).

Not remotely connected, two weeks later they sent out a reminder of the 'avoiding difficult situations' policy. Main plank : walk away.

I always thank the Southern RPIs for their hard work. i also often submit intel to them regarding people sitting in 1st without a valid ticket.

 

[Chapeltom]

How can YOU tell if someone has not got a first class ticket? Leave that to the railway staff.

 

[GodAtum]

Because they ask me if ive seen any guards or they speak to their mate we shouldnt be sitting here.

 

[jon0844]

It's amazing how many people brag about not having a first class ticket or joking that they fancy an upgrade. I presume they do it to wind up others, as what other reason would there be?*

Of course some could by lying and be annual FC season ticket holders, but it's unlikely.

And so far anyone that has spoken about not have a FC ticket had indeed not had one when a check was made.

* no doubt these people will be the ones telling the RPI they didn't know it was first class.

Sent from my HTC One_M8 using Tapatalk

 

[Darandio]

I always thank the Southern RPIs for their hard work. i also often submit intel to them regarding people sitting in 1st without a valid ticket.

And as you have already been told on here before, it may well backfire one day. Just let people do their job, don't get involved in something that has nothing to do with you.

 

[Flamingo]

I never mind somebody giving me a tip-off, there have been times I have been grateful for the support. It's only if another passenger starts to intervene I get uncomfortable, as they may not be seeing the full picture as regards what is going on, who may (or may not) be waiting at the next station, etc.

 

[MP33]

And as you have already been told on here before, it may well backfire one day. Just let people do their job, don't get involved in something that has nothing to do with you.

I was sitting in Greater Anglia 1st class and some City lawyer type was giving dirty looks in my direction. When the inspector came round I could give him a dirty look as I had an annual and he only had a monthly.

 

[Darandio]

I'm not suggesting that there is anything wrong with the odd tip off, not at all.

However, there is a history on this forum with 'GodAtum' of this behaviour. Always seemingly the only one with a valid ticket in first class, frequently giving these tip offs and in one case, laughing in the face of someone who was being ejected from first class. As they were told in that thread (and others) it may come back to haunt them one day.

However, I often become sceptical about what I read on forums. The same user (and friends) has been severely inconvenienced in just about every recent storm, has apparently had to sleep at work because of it and also didn't make it home for christmas?