Prosecution Department Letter

[tnfrhemz]

hi, so today i received a letter from south west trains.

On (date) a person giving the above N and A was questioned by a member of rail staff about an incident that occurred whilst on (train company) property. subsequently the matter has been reported to this office.

all the evidence available is being considered as to whether legal proceedings are appropriate. if you consider that there are further mitigation factors that may influence any decisions that may be made about this matter you are invited to respond, in writing only, within 14 days.
THIS IS NOT A REQUEST FOR PAYMENT.

so basically i was travelling two stops, where both stations have no gates. this has happened twice before, the first time i was given a £20 fine, but never ended up paying and for some reason they stopped asking (happened back in septemeber). the second time it happened for the same reason and after being sent a letter i had to pay up £85. now this is the third time and ofcourse it's all my fault. i come from a low-income family and paying for train tickets is too expensive for such a small journey. i go to sixth form 5 days a week and I simply cant afford to pay. therefore, ever since the third time i got stopped I have been getting lifts from my father.

now, can i send them a letter of pure apogolgy and explain to them why this happens. is there a chance they let me off and settle out of court? if they decline, and i most likely get prosecuted, will it come up in my CRB? on the letter it doesnt say if its under byelaws or what. also if prosecuted, how much would i end up paying and what would be the likely outcome. im just scared about getting anything on my criminal record.

thanks

 

[reb0118]

To me it looks like they intend to threaten you with prosecution but are giving you an opportunity to state your reasons as to why this incident happened.

You would be advised to respond accurately, timeously, and concisely. If you feel that there are any mitigating factors then this is your chance to state them.

It may be possible to arrange an administrative penalty aka an "out of court settlement" whereby you pay any fares due and a further sum of money to cover the TOC's administrative costs in investigating this matter. These are usually in the low hundreds - have you had one of these before? If so the TOC may not be so keen to offer one or they may demand a much higher than normal penalty.

Put simply the railway is not a charity and you do not have a right to a free ride in fact you have a responsibility to pay your way. That said you mention "sixth form" so I assume that you are 17 or 18 years of age? You may be an adult in the eyes of the railway, and the law, but surely your parents can help with your travel costs? Would you qualify for "travel expenses" from your local authority. I can remember getting some when I attended polytechnic.

You may find it helpful to speak to a student advisor at your college but I will reiterate what I have implied above - it you need to travel you also need to pay for that travel.

 

[Flamingo]

You're cream crackered. Once is unfortunate, twice smacks of careless, third time smacks of stupidity.

According to your previous thread, you were given an out-of-court settlement. This time, that option should not be on the table.

If they prosecute under bylaws, you may get away without a record. However, as this is a third offence you have been caught for, it could be RoRA which is recordable.

If it's that short a journey, walk or get a bike.

 

[DaleCooper]

http://www.railforums.co.uk/showthread.php?t=112578

Same OP

 

[tnfrhemz]

say for instance they do prosecute me and reject my appeal to settle out of court. would it be under byelaws or RoRA? can somebody please explain both of these and what would happen if i was convicted under either one of these.

would i get a criminal record under both ? how long would it take for it to be spent? etc etc

thanks
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
bump?????

 

[reb0118]

Patience laddie, patience.................

You will have to await notification from the TOC concerned. You have been given a chance to offer your side of the story. Take this opportunity. The TOC will take your response into consideration before responding to you with their response. They may, however, proceed straight to prosecution if they feel that they have enough evidence - you may have an inkling if they already have enough? - it's a waiting game. Remember most TOC's prosecution offices are quite small and there is often a backlog of cases. You will have to just sit tight and await their, or the courts, response. Only then can we offer more advice if required. One thing I would do now though is open a savings account and put a bit aside for the settlement or fine as appropriate. So, to restate my opening line......

Patience laddie, patience (easy to say when it's not me in the firing line I know)

 

[cjmillsnun]

I'll be blunt, if I were SWT's prosecutions department I'd be looking for a RoRA prosecution. 3 times shows intent, especially on the same journey. I'm guessing that if they wanted to they could go back through CCTV and see if you've been doing the same every day.

May I make a suggestion. Get a part time job. Put money aside, and be prepared for the worst.

If you get an opportunity to put your case to SWT, do not mention low income and not being able to afford it. It would seal your fate as regards a RoRA prosecution as technically you could not afford to travel but you chose to anyway (intent to evade the fare).

RoRA prosecutions are recordable (i.e. you get a criminal record), Byelaw prosecutions are not.

A RoRA conviction is spent after a year.

Both Byelaw and RoRA prosecutions will involve a fine.

It's quite simple. If you can't afford the fare, walk.

 

[tnfrhemz]

oh right, thanks for your responses.
in terms of writing back, i want my response to be as honest as possible. what do you guys recommend i mention in my letter ?

 

[Agent_c]

Rail tickets may be "Expensive", but the penalty for fare evasion should be even more so. Not really sure why you'd expect leniency a third time...

 

[najaB]

now, can i send them a letter of pure apogolgy and explain to them why this happens. is there a chance they let me off and settle out of court? if they decline, and i most likely get prosecuted, will it come up in my CRB? on the letter it doesnt say if its under byelaws or what. also if prosecuted, how much would i end up paying and what would be the likely outcome. im just scared about getting anything on my criminal record.

I was in the process of composing a reply but then noticed DaleCooper's post. Finding yourself in this situation twice in such a short space of time isn't exactly smart.

Being from a low income family is no excuse for not paying your fare, if it's only two stops then get a bike - as you said yourself it's "such a small journey".

 

[Andrewlong]

How many miles between the two stations mentioned and how much is the fare ?

 

[tnfrhemz]

How many miles between the two stations mentioned and how much is the fare ?

around 1 mile and ticket fare is £2.10 i believe
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could someone please suggest what i should include in my letter ?
i am looking to study medicine and would hate to have this on my record. should i mention that?

 

[najaB]

could someone please suggest what i should include in my letter ?

Ordinarily, it would be advisable to apologise and promise not to do it again. In your case...

i am looking to study medicine and would hate to have this on my record. should i mention that?

How does the fact that you intend to study medicine excuse you from the requirement to buy tickets?

 

[bb21]

im just scared about getting anything on my criminal record.

I will be very unkind and be very blunt. I do not believe that you are scared of getting a criminal record.

Three times you were caught, so you clearly have not learned anything from the last two occasions. Three times you were caught, but how many times were you evading the fare and not caught? You do not give the impression that you appreciate the gravity of the matter.

If you genuinely cannot afford to travel to college and have exhausted all available avenues to obtain funding, why did you not take this into account when choosing which college to go to? Have you tried asking your local authority or your college whether there were any help available?

No one can tell you what they would likely do to you, because very few people get caught again, and again, and again. For a one-off offence, begging and grovelling would likely get you off with a settlement and a slap on the wrist, but this is not a one-off. You are a habitual offender, so it would hardly surprise me if they decided to make an example of you and go for the Regulation of Railways Act offence, which would leave you a criminal record. To be honest I even think this is the least you should be worrying about, but rather that if you carry on like this, one day they will lose patience and lock you up. You are doing this habitually, and one day you will find that you do this without thinking, and you may even be doing this already.

So, please, don't ever think that you would get lucky and not be caught again. Chances are that you will, and there is only so much people can help you before you need to take responsibility for your own actions. Do it enough times and no amount of apology and grovelling would be able to help you.

around 1 mile and ticket fare is £2.10 i believe

Then I am truly speechless.

Walk.

 

[DaleCooper]

around 1 mile and ticket fare is £2.10 i believe

One mile, that's about a 20 minute walk, I do a lot more than that most days and I'm in my sixties.

You believe the fare is £2.10, have you ever bought a ticket?

 

[Quakkerillo]

According to RailMiles, it's 2mi, 68ch. (4.6km/2.8mi) which should be a 50-60 minute walk.
Seeing it's your third time now, you might understand they RPI are there for a reason. They probably know that you, and others, do this regularly.

On a route I used, in the Netherlands, there were a lot of (lazy) school kids using trains too, often without a ticket. Quite frequently, they came with 8 train guards (!) on a local stopping service, just to check everybody.

College is a place and time of education. See this as a lesson to finally stop, and come to your senses. The price for the train isn't that much, the walk/bike ride not too far (extra; you'll survive), and the hassle now very serious.

And if you continue doing this even after now, you might as well not go to college anymore. If you can't learn to play by the rules, what are you going to learn at college?

 

[tnfrhemz]

One mile, that's about a 20 minute walk, I do a lot more than that most days and I'm in my sixties.

You believe the fare is £2.10, have you ever bought a ticket?

No no, its not one mile. walking from house to sixth form would take 1hr5mins. i checked on google maps. and the fare price is £2.10

 

[najaB]

No no, its not one mile. walking from house to sixth form would take 1hr5mins. i checked on google maps...

I find Google maps to be very conservative so if you are a fit, young person you could probably walk it in 45 minutes or even less. You're yet to provide any reason why the TOC shouldn't throw the book at you.

 

[Llanigraham]

No no, its not one mile. walking from house to sixth form would take 1hr5mins. i checked on google maps. and the fare price is £2.10

In the previous thread you said you were 19, therefore you are an ADULT and need to behave like one.
I suggest you get a part time job and start saving, especially if you want to go into medicine, as you are going to need plenty of money in the future to complete any course and PAY your train or bus fares.

 

[Iskra]

Isn't this kind of transport to college what EMA is for?

So the state is probably paying you money for said train fare, that you're repeatedly dodging...

It doesn't look great...

 

[tnfrhemz]

thanks for all your replies.

i 100% agree it is my fault. and i wont be crying etc if i am taken to court. honestly, when the got stopped by the TI, i knew straight away I was going to be prosecuted. However, why not send a letter and you never know..

The reason i am asking this question was to know whether or not you guys think I would be prosecuted under bylaws or RoRA. i wanted to know the difference between the two and wanted to know what would happen if convicted under either one. so could someone please do that ?

thanks again

 

[najaB]

The reason i am asking this question was to know whether or not you guys think I would be prosecuted under bylaws or RoRA. i wanted to know the difference between the two and wanted to know what would happen if convicted under either one. so could someone please do that ?

For your sake I hope it is a Byelaw prosecution. However, given that it isn't even six months since the last incident, I would be surprised (and I must admit a bit disappointed) if a RoRA prosecution wasn't being seriously considered by SWT's prosecution team.

A prosecution under the Byelaws would result in a fine (plus costs and victim surcharge) and very little else, it isn't recordable so it wouldn't show up on a DBS check.

A prosecution under the RoRA would also result in a fine (quite possibly a larger one, with costs, etc.) but is recordable. This means it would show up on a DBS check for a year. After that time it would be considered spent and not show up. It's still be advisable to answer 'Yes' to the question 'Do you have any convictions (spent or unspent)' on any job applications. An employer isn't allowed to let spent convictions influence their decision to hire someone. However, lying about it (if they subsequently found out) could be grounds for dismissal.

 

[Flamingo]

I thought that for working in the NHS, there is no such thing as a spent conviction...

 

[DaveNewcastle]

The reason i am asking this question was to know whether or not you guys think I would be prosecuted under bylaws or RoRA. i wanted to know the difference between the two and wanted to know what would happen if convicted under either one. so could someone please do that ?

The main difference between a Railway Byelaw 18 offence and a Regulation of Railways Act S.5 offence is the element of "intention". The element of "intention" to defraud the Railway Company triggers the entry in the Police National Computer if found Guilty.
There is generally a slightly higher level of fine and costs for the RoRA offence, but with your prompt admission of Guilt, that may not apply to you.

Frim what I have read on here, I am persuaded that you intend to avoid paying for the service you receive on a regular basis. If the Railway Company's Proseuctions Department staff come to the same conclusion (after reading your letter), then they will probably pursue the RoRA prosecution against you. It is hard to see what possible mitigation you could offer other than evidence of your income. That should help in placing the fine in the appropriate bracket for your financial means. But I must warn you that failure to pay a Court fine when due is an extremely serious matter with serious consequences.

 

[455driver]

£2:10 is too expensive!
ffs a coffee costs more than that!

Do you have a mobile phone, computer etc etc?
If so then you have got spare cash, you just choose not to pay your fare.

It might come as a bit of a shock to you but nothing in life is free except walking so either pay up or buy a pushbike, '1 mile takes over an hour's, really if you were to walk it quickly it would take about 30 minutes, Normal walking about 45 minutes.
It sounds like you are making (pathetic) excuses for your criminal behaviour rather than accept the truth.
You are the type of person the RoRA was written for.

 

[cjmillsnun]

I thought that for working in the NHS, there is no such thing as a spent conviction...

Depends what you do. For a porter or cleaner it's spent, or other behind the scenes job. For actual medical work, that's another matter

 

[Flamingo]

Normal walking speed along a pavement if fit should be three miles an hour without breaking a sweat. I could do 4 mph carrying a bergin and other kit without too much extra effort (in the days when I had to do so).
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

Depends what you do. For a porter or cleaner it's spent, or other behind the scenes job. For actual medical work, that's another matter

The OP wants to do medicine (makes a change from Law, I suppose!).

 

[cjmillsnun]

The OP wants to do medicine (makes a change from Law, I suppose!).

He's Donald Ducked then

 

[455driver]

Isn't this kind of transport to college what EMA is for?

Na, that's to pay for his Saturday night out on the razz.

 

[34D]

Trying to be constructive....

Your response ought to contain a sincere apology.

Going forwards, I see that £2.10 is the public' off peak oyster fare.

Have you looked into the oyster photocards and/or young persons railcards?

Though I guess college has now finished, and you'll be starting work and/or uni shortly?