Prosecution Brighton to Victoria

[brighton121]

• The stations where you started & finished your journey;
Started at Brighton and Got off at London Victoria.
• The stations where you changed trains (if applicable); No train changes.

• If you presented a ticket(s), the information stated under "Ticket type", "From", "To", "Route", and any other relevant details;
Ticket Type; Season
From; Brighton
To; London St Pancras
Route; Not Underground
• What happened in any encounter with railway staff;
My normal trains from Brighton were running with a reduced service and replacement Bus Service this weekend. During the week I had been permitted to get on at Victoria Station to travel to Brighton due to disrupted trains with a member of staff allowing me to do so. With this in mind I approached staff at Brighton station to ask whether I could use my ticket to board the Victoria train and was told yes. I also had my ticket checked on the train by an inspector who said it was fine and didn’t ask me any further questions. Once I got off at Victoria a member of staff stopped me at the gate, told me my ticket wasn’t valid and tried to fine me. I explained all of the above and questioned why other members of staff had allowed me to travel but was told ‘it wasn’t his (the inspectors) problem that those staff hadn’t been doing their jobs properly. I was rather annoyed at this point – my ticket already costs me £340 a month and I don’t think I’d had one journey all week that wasn’t delayed or disrupted so I refused to pay the fine saying I wanted to dispute it. The staff member took down all my details including an address and my photocard info and told me I would be called to a magistrates court. He then let me leave. As I was having all these details taken down another member of staff told a friend waiting for me that I wouldn’t be sentenced in court but would actually receive a fine of between £0 - £300. I am now totally confused and quite frankly livid. Can anyone help!? Thanks.
• The details of any paperwork with which you were issued.
I wasn’t given any paperwork to keep myself – the staff member had the form and told me I couldn’t have my own copy. He told me to ‘get a solicitor ready…’

• We need to know what outcome(s) you would consider satisfactory
I would like to know if I can appeal anything, and the steps to do so, and also the likelihood of me having to appear in court and being prosecuted.

 

[snail]

If you read through other threads in this section there are lots of stories similar to yours.

First point is that neither of the 'fines' you mention are really fines. The payment you were invited to make when stopped will have been a Penalty Fare, intended for people in your position that have the wrong ticket but have a genuine reason. If you had paid it that would have been the end of the matter.

Unfortunately, you refused to pay so now you are potentially avoiding payment of the correct fare for your journey. This is where the second 'fine' comes in. If the Train Company that stopped you believe your account then they may be prepared to settle out of court on payment of a suitable amount to cover their admin costs. This can be anything from £80 upwards. But, given the disruption and that you were told at Brighton you could get the Victoria train they may just abandon the matter altogether. But that is their decision now, not yours.

From what you have said, you may have made an expensive mistake in not paying the Penalty Fare. When they ask for your version of events, be concise and conciliatory.

 

[maniacmartin]

If a member of staff did authorise you to travel using that ticket to Victoria, then whether the ticket is valid there doesn't matter.

The problem here is that it will be very hard for you to prove that a member of staff at Brighton authorised you to travel to Victoria. If this ever happens again, ask them to put it in writing, so that you have something to show other staff members.

 

[island]

I seem to remember an argument that a Brighton to St. Pancras ticket is valid via Victoria. Even if not, if a member of staff gave you permission to use the ticket you should not be penalised. I don't think any out-of-court settlements should be contemplated just yet.

 

[swt_passenger]

The discussion about going via Victoria that you mention seemed to hinge on whether 'not underground' means that you 'must use Thameslink', IIRC. I don't believe it does, because you can make your own way (either at your own expense or on foot) from Victoria to St Pancras...

If this fare is meant to be limited to Thameslink, the routeing restriction ought to be 'FCC only', surely?

 

[embers25]

I thought with the engineering works the ticket was valid as FCC and Southern were taking each others tickets anyway regardless of the fact that technically it probably is valid anyway?

 

[Nick W]

Welcome to the forum and thank you for providing so much information!

I'm pretty sure that your ticket was not valid to Victoria. Therefore you did not show a valid ticket and this cannot be disputed. However you were clearly giving misleading information from railway staff about the conditions of your ticket and so understandably wish to contest the charge. In particular the two members of staff could be understood to have given you "permission to travel without a valid ticket." [ Railway Byelaws (2005) s18]

In a few weeks time, you will likely get a letter from Southern or First Capital Connect either offering to drop the charge on payment of a charge, or asking for more information about your circumstances. You will have two options at that point. You can either write a statement outlying the fact that you were misled and hope that the company will drop the prosecution, or you can immediately seek legal advice, which may be costly if the case is dropped.

You may obviously wish to seek legal advice immediately.

In the meantime, I'd advice you too immediately gather as much evidence as possible to support your case. Make absolutely sure you gather a record of all the occasions you were informed that your ticket could be used to Victoria. Note down the date and times, as close as you can remember, and if you can remember what the people looked like, go and find and note down their names.

Make sure you have a record of what conversations you have had with members of the train company reproduced as close as possible. In particular the RPI who reported you stated "t wasn't his (the inspectors) problem that those staff hadn't been doing their jobs properly". This is an admission that he believed at the time that you had been misinformed by other members of the train company.

Likewise, note down any publications indicating that your ticket was valid to Victoria, e.g. in times of disruption, and all the times previously that your ticket had been accepted unchallenged.

I'm sure someone will confirm whether or not the following could assist the case or not, after the incident has already happened, but I'm not sure: you may wish to enquire at Brighton station which London terminals your season ticket is valid to. If they claim it is valid to London Victoria, get them to sign, date, and ideally provide the station stamp on paper a previously written statement that "Season tickets from Brighton to London St Pancras route Not Underground are valid to London Victoria". If they claim it is valid but refuse to sign it, note this down as evidence that the company cannot clearly provide the terms of your contract.

I'd urge you not to contact the company directly, nor to complain, until you know for sure that the company does not wish to prosecute you. Once this has been done, you can safely complain.

I wish you the vest best of luck!

 

[brighton121]

Thank you all very much for your help and advice I really appreciate everything.

I'll follow up on all your suggestions - unfortunately I really can't remember what the member of staff looked like - I'll definitely follow up at the station though.

Thanks again so much.
Ciara

 

[34D]

Do you recall the time of your train from Brighton (or the time it arrived in London)?

Could be helpful in Southern finding out whether you were given permission to travel to Victoria or not.

 

[DelayRepay]

I would check the Twitter accounts of the companies concerned, and National Rail Enquiries, around the time of your journey to see if there was any mention there of restrictions being relaxed. It's not "proof" as such but would add weight to your argument I think.

 

[westcoaster]

Although ticketing is not my thing, the one thing that sticks out is you asked if you could board the Victoria train, not if you could travel to Victoria. If the Victoria train stopped at east Croydon or any stops between Brighton and east Croydon your ticket was valid (do you remember where the on board ticket check was done?).

 

[MikeWh]

Although ticketing is not my thing, the one thing that sticks out is you asked if you could board the Victoria train, not if you could travel to Victoria. If the Victoria train stopped at east Croydon or any stops between Brighton and east Croydon your ticket was valid (do you remember where the on board ticket check was done?).

The onboard checks were fine, the problem was ...

Once I got off at Victoria a member of staff stopped me at the gate,

 

[maniacmartin]

That is a good point. If the onboard check was before, say, East Croydon, the inspector may have assumed that the OP was intending to change trains there.

Did the staff member at Brighton station authorise travel all the way to Victoria on the Victoria train?

 

[sheff1]

I'm pretty sure that your ticket was not valid to Victoria. Therefore you did not show a valid ticket and this cannot be disputed.

Surely a Brighton to London St Pancras 'not Underground' ticket is valid via Victoria (using maps LB +SL to London Bridge)

 

[MikeWh]

Surely a Brighton to London St Pancras 'not Underground' ticket is valid via Victoria (using maps LB +SL to London Bridge)

Once you've left LB you can't go back to it. You can't get to St Pancras on SL.

 

[sheff1]

Once you've left LB you can't go back to it. You can't get to St Pancras on SL.

1. A Brighton to St Pancras season is valid to/via London Bridge.

2. A journey from Brighton to London Bridge is valid via Victoria on LB & SL.

3. London Bridge to St Pancras is then valid as per 1.

 

[gnolife]

1. A Brighton to St Pancras season is valid to/via London Bridge.

2. A journey from Brighton to London Bridge is valid via Victoria on LB & SL.

3. London Bridge to St Pancras is then valid as per 1.

This is quoted from the Routing Guide, section F

Section D contains the maps referred to by route codes in Section C. Maps
must not be used until the permitted routes have been identified in Section C.
If the route code is a single map, for example CS, then the only permitted routes are
those that can be traced between the origin and destination on that map alone.
If the route code has several maps, route tracing must observe the following rules:
1. Tracing must start at one of the ends of the route code.
2. All maps must be used.
3. Maps must be used in strict sequence, first to last or last to first, according to the
end of the route code where reading began.
4. Tracing may move from map to map only at a point where the two maps touch.
5. Once route tracing has left a map it cannot return to it.
6. Journeys may not double back except between stations which are members of a routeing point group for interchange or unless an easement permits it.

I've bolded the part which means that Mike's statement that you can't go via Victoria is correct, as you would have to use Map LB twice

 

[bb21]

My understanding is that Brighton to London Group is permitted on LB or LB + SL. SL does not contain either St Pancras or Brighton so LB + SL cannot possibly give a permitted route between St Pancras and Brighton, which therefore leaves only map LB on its own, in which case Victoria is not a permitted route.

My conclusion on this basis is that the ticket is not valid at Victoria.

 

[sheff1]

The opening sentence of the Routeing Guide states
The National Rail Conditions of Carriage require precise definition of the routes that a customer may use for a particular journey.

The paragraph then continues
These routes are known as "permitted routes". The National Routeing Guide enables users to determine whether the proposed journey is via a "permitted route".

If the 'particular journey' is not Brighton to St Pancras but Brighton to London Bridge (allowed on a season ticket between Brighton and St Pancras) then that journey is 'permitted' via Victoria using maps LB & SL. Then, when travelling on that permitted route for the journey, it is open to the passenger to break the journey en route at Victoria if they so wish.

 

[bb21]

It is valid at London Bridge because London Bridge sits on a permitted route between Brighton and St Pancras using map LB only. That condition cannot be overwritten.

Otherwise using your logic, a ticket between London and Glasgow is valid between London and Reading, therefore valid into all south London terminals, which is blatantly incorrect.

 

[sheff1]

Can you get a season ticket from London to Glasgow ?

Even if you can, it would presumably be issued from 'London Terminals' rather than a specific station (eg Paddington). The case above is different as the season is between two specific stations.

 

[bb21]

The difference being? Your argument is that permitted routes are determined by the actual journey undertaken (or proposed journey), regardless of routeing constraints permitted by the ticket itself. The Glasgow example shows exactly that.

Quoting your own words, and substituting the stations using the Glasgow example,

If the 'particular journey' is not London to Glasgow but London to Reading (allowed on a Off-Peak Single ticket between London and Glasgow) then that journey is 'permitted' via Clapham Junction using maps WX. Then, when travelling on that permitted route for the journey, it is open to the passenger to break the journey en route at Clapham Junction if they so wish.

 

[RJ]

The opening sentence of the Routeing Guide states
The National Rail Conditions of Carriage require precise definition of the routes that a customer may use for a particular journey.

The paragraph then continues
These routes are known as "permitted routes". The National Routeing Guide enables users to determine whether the proposed journey is via a "permitted route".

If the 'particular journey' is not Brighton to St Pancras but Brighton to London Bridge (allowed on a season ticket between Brighton and St Pancras) then that journey is 'permitted' via Victoria using maps LB & SL. Then, when travelling on that permitted route for the journey, it is open to the passenger to break the journey en route at Victoria if they so wish.

I understand exactly what you're getting at, but it wouldn't work IMO. The only permitted routes that can be used are those between the stations shown on the ticket, Brighton and St Pancras. No valid map combination allows travel via Victoria.

You can start/stop short at London Bridge, so long as you are on a permitted route between Brighton and St Pancras. You can't however, hold a Brighton to St Pancras ticket and choose to use the permitted routes for a Brighton to London Terminals ticket, if that makes sense.

 

[sheff1]

The difference being?

1. The ticket concerned is a season ticket, unlike the London - Glasgow ticket

Usage permissions for seasons are different to those for a one journey (single or return) ticket in so far as you can make an unlimited number of journeys to/from/between intermediate stations, including doubling back as often as you like. The Routeing Guide suggests to me, and seemingly to others, that you determine the permitted route for the particular journey you are undertaking *. You, and again others, obviously see things differently.

* as long as that journey is permitted by your season ticket, which a Brighton to London Bridge journey is.

2. A London Terminals to Glasgow ticket is only valid from certain London Terminals, not all. If you could buy a specific London Waterloo to Glasgow ticket things would be different

 

[Airlink]

Penalty Fares Regulations state:

7. Circumstances in which a penalty fare may not be charged.

7.3 An authorised collector must not charge a penalty fare under
rule 6.2 if any of the following circumstances applied at the
station where the person joined the relevant train.

d A person acting, or appearing to act, on behalf of the
operator of that train or station indicated that the person
was, or people generally were, allowed to board that train
without a ticket or other authority to travel.

I'm an RPI, I get sick to the back teeth of colleagues whos knowledge is sadly lacking. All I would advise people to do is, in future, get the name of the member of staff who gives you permission, most staff wear name badges.

 

[island]

Rethinking this, I can only come to the conclusion that without the permission of a staff member, the OP would have been deviating between Clapham Junction and Victoria, this piece of track not being on a permitted route from Brighton to London St Pancras International.

 

[RJ]

Rethinking this, I can only come to the conclusion that without the permission of a staff member, the OP would have been deviating between Clapham Junction and Victoria, this piece of track not being on a permitted route from Brighton to London St Pancras International.

Penalty Fare regs take precedence over Excess Fare procedures, so a Penalty Fare can be issued for the lack of a valid ticket between Clapham Junction and Victoria. However, Airlink makes a valid point and hopefully the OP will be able to obtain the backup of the member of staff who advised them so.

 

[soil]

I seem to remember an argument that a Brighton to St. Pancras ticket is valid via Victoria. Even if not, if a member of staff gave you permission to use the ticket you should not be penalised. I don't think any out-of-court settlements should be contemplated just yet.

Brighton - London Bridge is valid to Victoria but not St Pancras. Brighton - St Pancras is valid to London Bridge and St Pancras, but not to Victoria.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

1. The ticket concerned is a season ticket, unlike the London - Glasgow ticket

Usage permissions for seasons are different to those for a one journey (single or return) ticket in so far as you can make an unlimited number of journeys to/from/between intermediate stations, including doubling back as often as you like. The Routeing Guide suggests to me, and seemingly to others, that you determine the permitted route for the particular journey you are undertaking *. You, and again others, obviously see things differently.

The conditions of carriage seem fairly clear, and should be referred to where possible:

A Season Ticket gives you the right to travel between particular stations or within particular zones during the period up to and including the Season Ticket’s expiry date.

This includes the right to start, break and resume, or end your journey, as described in Condition 16. If you use the Season Ticket to travel beyond the station or zones for which it is valid, you will be treated as having joined the train without a ticket for that additional part of your journey and Condition 2 or 4 will apply. The routes you are entitled to take with a Season Ticket are explained in Condition 13.

Condition 16 reads:

You may start, or break and resume, a journey (in either direction in the case of a return ticket) at any intermediate station, as long as the ticket you hold is valid for the trains you want to use.

Condition 13 describes Permitted Routes.

Therefore a season ticket from Brighton to London St Pancras is valid on all permitted routes between Brighton and London St Pancras.

These are:

Brighton - Three Bridges - Gatwick Airport - East Croydon OR
Brighton - Lewes - Three Bridges - Gatwick Airport - East Croydon or

then by permitted routes between East Croydon and Blackfriars

which would include for instance East Croydon - London Bridge - Blackfriars
East Croydon - Clapham Junction - Waterloo, Waterloo East - London Bridge - Blackfriars

and then from Blackfriars to St Pancras:

Blackfriars - City Thameslink - Farringdon - St Pancras


You can therefore use the ticket to travel e.g., from Brighton to Lewes, in which case you are finishing short on your Brighton - St Pancras ticket, or from East Croydon to London Bridge, in which case you are starting AND finishing short on a Brighton - St Pancras ticket.

What you can't do is pick stations on a permitted route and then derive permitted routes for those stations.

However there were severe disruptions to FCC services this weekend:

http://www.firstcapitalconnect.co.u...nned-timetables-changes/details/TL2013-01-26/
http://www.firstcapitalconnect.co.u...nned-timetables-changes/details/TL2013-01-27/

so it is somewhat plausible that this advice would have been given.

There would not however have been any difficulty changing at East Croydon, so it is correct that someone doing their job properly would have advised this course of action, or a CLJ-VIC SDS/SDR to complete the missing segment between CLJ and VIC.

 

[sarahj]

We sell these route spercific tickets as a cheaper alternative to London terminals, so I cannot see how a ticket to London Bridge is valid to London Victoria and VV. If I see a ticket to london bridge on a train to vic I will say change at East Croydon, or if the person wants to go to Vic, sell them a ticket ECR to Vic, though to be honest, I've not seen many that were not FCC only and not valid on my train anyway.
The odd one or two I've seen were on a 442 from London Bridge to Brighton, with most being FCC only, who i then give the option of paying again, or getting off at Three Bridges. The view here that FCC only season ticket holders know what they are doing.

As for routing, any permited to london terminals, yes via Lewes. I've even said Worthing to london terminals is valid via Horsham (the pass wanted to go to littlehampton), but he had difficulty at the barrier, the barrier person going on price. The problem is this infomation is hard to come by and some I've learnt only by reading Barry Doe in Rail or speaking to staff who joined back in stephensons day.

 

[maniacmartin]

We sell these route spercific tickets as a cheaper alternative to London terminals, so I cannot see how a ticket to London Bridge is valid to London Victoria and VV.

Its because they're mapped routes. In both cases, in the Routeing Guide you look up London Group, which in both cases gives the same maps (LB or LB+SL). SL includes lines that go between Victora and London Bridge via Denmark Hill. LB includes a route between them vic Waterloo and Clapham Junction.

This recent thread discussed the matter.

Alas St Pancras is only shown on map LB (the first map), which would allow travel via Clapham Junction and Waterloo, but not Victoria (because of doubling back), so this argument will not work for St Pancras.