Prosecuted with no evidence or details?

[familyguy12]

Recently I received an email from Northern Rail suggesting i have suspicious ticket purchasing history. I always buy tickets and notably never travel via northern. They did not specify any particular event and want to interview me? I am very confused in regard to this situation and would appreciate some advice.

edit: thank you everyone for the replies, you have been extremely helpful!

 

[Sheffcaster202]

Recently I received an email from Northern Rail suggesting i have suspicious ticket purchasing history. I always buy tickets and notably never travel via northern. They did not specify any particular event and want to interview me? I am very confused in regard to this situation and would appreciate some advice.

Perhaps you could post up the email, removing/blanking out any personal details for people to look over and help?

Your thread title is a little misleading too, if all you have is an email so far I'm unsure what you could have been prosecuted for?

 

[Titfield]

Do you purchase tickets on the Northern Rail website?

 

[familyguy12]

Perhaps you could post up the email, removing/blanking out any personal details for people to look over and help?

Your thread title is a little misleading too, if all you have is an email so far I'm unsure what you could have been prosecuted for?

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 5 Apr 2024 ==

Do you purchase tickets on the Northern Rail website?

I only buy tickets on trainline

 

[Sheffcaster202]

I only buy tickets on trainline

What do you buy and where do you travel to and from? Are you a regular train user? Have you refunded any tickets recently/claimed delay repay? Anything that could cause suspicion around any of your accounts

Other forum members will come along and give advice regarding the interview and what to do, how to reply etc but they will need some more information to help look at things for you

 

[Gloster]

I presume that ‘suspicious ticket purchasing history’ means that they believe if is possible that you have short-fared, doughnutted (only bought tickets covering the first and last parts of a journey), bought child tickets or ones requiring railcards that you don’t have. Do you buy tickets for others or make odd journeys, particularly those adding on at the beginning or end of other tickets?

Alternatively, is it possible that you have lost a railcard or have your account details been acquired by someone who is misusing them. I am no expert so others can comment on whether this is possible.

 

[familyguy12]

What do you buy and where do you travel to and from? Are you a regular train user? Have you refunded any tickets recently/claimed delay repay? Anything that could cause suspicion around any of your accounts

Other forum members will come along and give advice regarding the interview and what to do, how to reply etc but they will need some more information to help look at things for you

I travel every day to college on the leeds to huddersfield route (transpenine express) and I will buy a single each way. I often end up on trains delayed by over 20 minutes but have never claimed any repay.

 

[familyguy12]

I presume that ‘suspicious ticket purchasing history’ means that they believe if is possible that you have short-fared, doughnutted (only bought tickets covering the first and last parts of a journey), bought child tickets or ones requiring railcards that you don’t have. Do you buy tickets for others or make odd journeys, particularly those adding on at the beginning or end of other tickets?

Alternatively, is it possible that you have lost a railcard or have your account details been acquired by someone who is misusing them. I am no expert so others can comment on whether this is possible.

I once used a 16-17 railcard, shortly after turning 18 due to a genuine mistake (around 6 months ago), as trainline only alerts you on your railcard expiring if you click “show railcard” which is only required if a conductor asks. I have already payed. £70+ fine in full for this and since have only every bought tickets for myself in full.

 

[skyhigh]

I once used a 16-17 railcard, shortly after turning 18 due to a genuine mistake (around 6 months ago), as trainline only alerts you on your railcard expiring if you click “show railcard” which is only required if a conductor asks. I have already payed. £70+ fine in full for this and since have only every bought tickets for myself in full.

So other than that, you can't think of anything you've done wrong? No short tickets, anything like that? Where do you travel from/to?

 

[island]

Another thing they check in these history reviews are a high level of refunded tickets.

 

[Titfield]

Is it possible that Trainline have alerted Northern Rail as the TOC with a fraud team nearest the location of the home of the OP. Northern Rail thus acting on behalf of all operators.

 

[Starmill]

In general it's not going to assist you to attend these interviews. There are several reasons why:

• You don't know what you're being accused of. No details have been given. Is it an offence of fraud? Something else? When and where? And so on. Their interview may or may not involve telling you this. You won't know until you're there.
• You may become flustered and mistakingly say something that's not precisely true, and have to correct yourself, in the interview or later. This isn't a criticism of you and your cool - anyone would be more liable to get a minor detail wrong in person, which if they'd been writing a letter, they would have got right. Even a solicitor sometimes. Correcting yourself is inherently better than leaving on record something that's not true and without a correction. However, it's also an opportunity for a prosecutor to ask a Court to question your conduct, however minor the error.
• Anything you say on the record can be used in evidence against you. Even if you think you're saying something innocuous, many prosecutors are skilled at submitting your statements in such a way as to invite the Court to decide they're evidence of your guilt. That is their job, to be fair.
• Even if the prosecutors don't find an angle which can be used against you, it can harm your defence, should it be required, if you attend an interview and don't mention something. For example the prosecutor could try to persuade the Court that "the defendant is only mentioning this for the first time once the matter is in Court" to make your valid defence seem less so. If you don't engage with the prosecutor on any of their points before Court, this can't arise.
• An interview will use up your time and maybe some travel costs. Your resources are finite and I think we can safely say that you won't be receiving any compensation from them for those. In Court, you would be ordered to attend. The law may also oblige you to attend questioning by the police, such as if you're arrested. Northern and other companies cannot do this themselves.

There are probably other reasons also.

 

[familyguy12]

In general it's not going to assist you to attend these interviews. There are several reasons why:

• You don't know what you're being accused of. No details have been given. Is it an offence of fraud? Something else? When and where? And so on. Their interview may or may not involve telling you this. You won't know until you're there.
• You may become flustered and mistakingly say something that's not precisely true, and have to correct yourself, in the interview or later. This isn't a criticism of you and your cool - anyone would be more liable to get a minor detail wrong in person, which if they'd been writing a letter, they would have got right. Even a solicitor sometimes. Correcting yourself is inherently better than leaving on record something that's not true and without a correction. However, it's also an opportunity for a prosecutor to ask a Court to question your conduct, however minor the error.
• Anything you say on the record can be used in evidence against you. Even if you think you're saying something innocuous, many prosecutors are skilled at submitting your statements in such a way as to invite the Court to decide they're evidence of your guilt. That is their job, to be fair.
• Even if the prosecutors don't find an angle which can be used against you, it can harm your defence, should it be required, if you attend an interview and don't mention something. For example the prosecutor could try to persuade the Court that "the defendant is only mentioning this for the first time once the matter is in Court" to make your valid defence seem less so. If you don't engage with the prosecutor on any of their points before Court, this can't arise.
• An interview will use up your time and maybe some travel costs. Your resources are finite and I think we can safely say that you won't be receiving any compensation from them for those. In Court, you would be ordered to attend. The law may also oblige you to attend questioning by the police, such as if you're arrested. Northern and other companies cannot do this themselves.

There are probably other reasons also.

So how do i go about the email? ignore it?

 

[Titfield]

I travel every day to college on the leeds to huddersfield route (transpenine express) and I will buy a single each way. I often end up on trains delayed by over 20 minutes but have never claimed any repay.

I am assuming that you have not claimed delay repay and have not asked for a refund on any ticket.

Does the number of single journey tickets purchased for travel TO Huddersfield match the number of single journey tickets purchased for travel FROM Huddersfield?

 

[familyguy12]

I am assuming that you have not claimed delay repay and have not asked for a refund on any ticket.

Does the number of single journey tickets purchased for travel TO Huddersfield match the number of single journey tickets purchased for travel FROM Huddersfield?

Probably not, as I often get lifts or buses, or will sometimes go to my partners house after getting a train in the morning… can’t imagine that would warrant a suspicious activity claim though?

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 5 Apr 2024 ==

So other than that, you can't think of anything you've done wrong? No short tickets, anything like that? Where do you travel from/to?

I travel between leeds and huddersfield, and there are no instances i can recall that could warrant any sort of persecution

 

[Titfield]

Probably not, as I often get lifts or buses, or will sometimes go to my partners house after getting a train in the morning… can’t imagine that would warrant a suspicious activity claim though?

That could be it! They are probably suspecting that you are reusing some of the tickets for the journey "home" in the afternoon. Do you go through a barrier where the ticket is scanned both for the morning journey and the afternoon journey? If you can get home as it where without a ticket being scanned or checked they could suspect that you could be "risking" reusing a ticket used already (wrong dated) and then trying to bluff it out if challenged (oops innocent mistake, got the date wrong, etc etc).

 

[familyguy12]

That could be it! They are probably suspecting that you are reusing some of the tickets for the journey "home" in the afternoon. Do you go through a barrier where the ticket is scanned both for the morning journey and the afternoon journey? If you can get home as it where without a ticket being scanned or checked they could suspect that you could be "risking" reusing a ticket used already (wrong dated) and then trying to bluff it out if challenged (oops innocent mistake, got the date wrong, etc etc).

I use online tickets that are scanned and due to busy trains or lack of workers (?) there are rarely conductors on the train, so I never need to show my ticket to anyone except the barriers

 

[Titfield]

I use online tickets that are scanned and due to busy trains or lack of workers (?) there are rarely conductors on the train, so I never need to show my ticket to anyone except the barriers

It could still be, even though you are purchasing and using tickets absolutely correctly for all the journeys you make by train, that because of the "difference" in the number of tickets purchased for each direction caused by the lifts etc that TPE believe this is evidence that somehow you are reusing a ticket / travelling without a ticket and thus it is a matter to be investigated.

We have seen passengers suspected of this before though I cant remember if we were told the outcome.

Buying single tickets in opposite directions when it is more usual to buy a return is a "marker" of suspicious activity.

EDIT

The dilemma is that it is for TPE to prove wrong doing, not for you to prove innocence BUT a failure to respond or no comment tends to suggest to many that you do have something to hide.

Do you have evidence of the being given a lift etc possibly a record of mobile phone location that shows you did indeed get a lift or go to a partners house?

 

[Sheffcaster202]

there are rarely conductors on the train

There is always a conductor on TPE trains, they have recently been in dispute and not scanning tickets as often as usual but that is due to recommence very soon

The dilemma is that it is for TPE to prove wrong doing

The OP has received an email from Northern DRPU, not TPE

 

[glasgowniteowl]

I travel every day to college on the leeds to huddersfield route (transpenine express) and I will buy a single each way. I often end up on trains delayed by over 20 minutes but have never claimed any repay.

You missed one of the questions by sheffcaster, do you ever refund tickets on trainline?

Also you say you never use northern, just checking was the penalty fare you paid, one from transpennine or was it northern?

 

[jupiter]

I'm not an expert in these matters but it seems some AI has got a bit enthusiastic somewhere. I had an "enquiry" by HMRC once. My accountant advised answering the questions they had asked in as few words as you can and say nothing else.

Personally, I wouldn't be accepting their invitation to interview, but I would politely respond telling them that.

 

[Starmill]

I use online tickets that are scanned and due to busy trains or lack of workers (?) there are rarely conductors on the train, so I never need to show my ticket to anyone except the barriers

You're correct in your thoughts that it's often too busy for the conductor or other ticket checking staff to get through the train, yes. Also on some trains the conductor may be in a separate section of the train to you, if you're in the front half, commonly.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 5 Apr 2024 ==

So how do i go about the email? ignore it?

If you are certain you haven't travelled on a Northern train, you could reply stating that fact and then then add that you won't be attending an interview. You could also ignore it. If there's a possibility that you've bought any tickets from Northern or used Northern train services I would probably refrain from saying anything unless you can be absolutely certain.

At the end of the day, it has to be your choice that you're happy with, so only you can say.

 

[Sheffcaster202]

I travel between leeds and huddersfield, and there are no instances i can recall that could warrant any sort of persecution

How much are you paying for you tickets?
Do you have a railcard you are using?

 

[familyguy12]

You missed one of the questions by sheffcaster, do you ever refund tickets on trainline?

Also you say you never use northern, just checking was the penalty fare you paid, one from transpennine or was it northern?

no despite frequent long delays i’ve never refunded any tickets

the penalty fare was transpenine

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 5 Apr 2024 ==

How much are you paying for you tickets?
Do you have a railcard you are using?

Can’t remember off the top of my head but it’s in the range of £5-10… I do not currently use a railcard although I intend to buy the 18-25(?) one

 

[glasgowniteowl]

no despite frequent long delays i’ve never refunded any tickets

Slightly off topic but it may uncover something else(not sure what though!) But this comment hints at a misunderstanding on your part, what do you actually mean here, what has frequent long delays got to do with refunding tickets?

 

[Titfield]

Can I just make the point that delays are reimbursed through the delay repayment scheme, refunds can be applied for in specific circumstances.

We have seen passengers get into trouble by obtaining refunds for tickets when the correct procedure was to apply for delay repay.

EDIT I think you need to extremely carefully check your transactions and decide if there is any activity contrary to the regulations.

Only then can you take advice on the best way to proceed.

 

[familyguy12]

Slightly off topic but it may uncover something else(not sure what though!) But this comment hints at a misunderstanding on your part, what do you actually mean here, what has frequent long delays got to do with refunding tickets?

Oh, I just meant that you can refund if your train is delayed by more than 15 or so minutes but i’ve never bothered requesting a refund

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 6 Apr 2024 ==

Can I just make the point that delays are reimbursed through the delay repayment scheme, refunds can be applied for in specific circumstances.

We have seen passengers get into trouble by obtaining refunds for tickets when the correct procedure was to apply for delay repay.

EDIT I think you need to extremely carefully check your transactions and decide if there is any activity contrary to the regulations.

Only then can you take advice on the best way to proceed.

I have never attempted to do either; I have only ever purchased anytime day singles to commute to college… I cannot think of any period in time where I have breached any type of guidelines

 

[Surreytraveller]

I would email them asking for them to email back what the issue is.
If it was me, I would be declining the interview, but inviting them to take me to court once they had told me what the offence was I had committed.
This sounds like a fishing expedition, and the only reason for the interview is for you to incriminate yourself.
It could also be a breach of GDPR if Trainline have given Northern your personal data if no evidence of any offence actually exists.
Perhaps, if these organisations are abusing GDPR, they should only pass data around with a court order.

 

[cactustwirly]

I wouldn't be attending an interview, it's a fishing expedition.
You have no legal obligation to attend. They have not even given any details about what the suspicious activity is!

 

[Titfield]

I would email them asking for them to email back what the issue is.
If it was me, I would be declining the interview, but inviting them to take me to court once they had told me what the offence was I had committed.
This sounds like a fishing expedition, and the only reason for the interview is for you to incriminate yourself.
It could also be a breach of GDPR if Trainline have given Northern your personal data if no evidence of any offence actually exists.
Perhaps, if these organisations are abusing GDPR, they should only pass data around with a court order.

Never ever invite someone to take you to court as it effectively precludes an out of court settlement being offered in the event they do have evidence of wrong doing.

As I said in my earlier post, check all your transactions very carefully and on the basis of that seek further advice on here.