Proposed Overground frequency increases

[JonathanH]

Is it not possible to get West Croydon to more than 4tph?

I suspect that only having one bay platform is the issue. Wasn't there talk at one stage of a turn back facility at Wallington? https://www.railforums.co.uk/thread...ia-west-croydon-services.239022/#post-5913474

The turnback siding west of West Croydon is occupied for a large part of the hour turning the Southern services, which is why some Southern peak extras run on to Sutton.

 

[PGAT]

I suspect that only having one bay platform is the issue. Wasn't there talk at one stage of a turn back facility at Wallington?

The turnback siding west of West Croydon is occupied for a large part of the hour turning the Southern services, which is why some Southern peak extras run on to Sutton.

Each service occupies the siding for about 20 minutes surely there must be a way of better utilising that capacity to squeeze in an extra 2tph

 

[bb21]

Each service occupies the siding for about 20 minutes surely there must be a way of better utilising that capacity to squeeze in an extra 2tph

What do Southern require to change ends on an 8-car? 5 minutes? You have 15 minutes from that 20 to play with if so. Trouble is if you squeeze that, you start losing resilience in times of disruption. To accommodate another 2tph you are looking at max 10~11-minute occupations per train including change of ends, which is doable depending on how the headways and path availability elsewhere sit but quite tight regardless.

 

[PGAT]

What do Southern require to change ends on an 8-car? 5 minutes? You have 15 minutes from that 20 to play with if so. Trouble is if you squeeze that, you start losing resilience in times of disruption. To accommodate another 2tph you are looking at max 10~11-minute occupations per train including change of ends, which is doable depending on how the headways and path availability elsewhere sit but quite tight regardless.

10 car trains are scheduled to turn around at Epsom in 6 minutes and often do so in 4 or 5 if delayed. 15 is more than enough

 

[Ian Hardy]

Each service occupies the siding for about 20 minutes surely there must be a way of better utilising that capacity to squeeze in an extra 2tph

But West Croydon might not be the sticking point, it could be that the paths in and out of Victoria are the constraint, in that to allow shorter turnarounds for the Southern services terminating at West Croydon, it would require a complete refresh of the South Central suburban timetable.

 

[bb21]

10 car trains are scheduled to turn around at Epsom in 6 minutes and often do so in 4 or 5 if delayed. 15 is more than enough

My point wasn't about changing ends, as my educated guess of 5 minutes for an 8-car seems about right from what you are saying. It is more the other considerations after putting that aside, as this element is fixed and cannot be changed without significant work.

 

[Sad Sprinter]

Yes, the morning peak services regularly take 20 minutes or so - it's only 80p more than the Overground/Jubilee option though and at in my experience near 100% chance of getting a seat.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 17 Dec 2025 ==


^^This. I guess it's money saving in track charges etc. but normally the Overground is running, yet Southern services are rammed during peak weekend hours; when the Overground isn't running, I've seen people unable to board and having to wait 30 minutes to try again.

I’ve also noticed in the down direction from London Bridge they get held at New Cross Gate to allow an Overground to overtake. Which is somewhat irritating.

 

[LUYMun]

In the news regarding First Group winning the Overground concession, which was shared on another thread, it mentions that additional services will be provided between Clapham Junction-Shepherd's Bush by means of a shuttle during the peak hours. How will turnaround work out at Shepherd's Bush, would trains go from the Down to the Up line before arriving there or would they need to continue to North Pole Junction? If the latter than wouldn't that be a constraint on capacity on an already full-to-the-brim line, alongside needing extra platform staff to turf out passengers?

 

[321362]

Is there a reason why the Cheshunt branch isn't being 3tph in the peaks? Won't it be easier to make it 3+3 all day instead of 4+2 in peaks then 3+3?

At a guess, the bay at Cheshunt will be the constraint, or Bury Street Junction.

 

[Class15]

In the news regarding First Group winning the Overground concession, which was shared on another thread, it mentions that additional services will be provided between Clapham Junction-Shepherd's Bush by means of a shuttle during the peak hours. How will turnaround work out at Shepherd's Bush, would trains go from the Down to the Up line before arriving there or would they need to continue to North Pole Junction? If the latter than wouldn't that be a constraint on capacity on an already full-to-the-brim line, alongside needing extra platform staff to turf out passengers?

Surely the Turnback at North Pole Jn would suffice? I agree that turfing passengers out at Shepherds Bush is hardly ideal, particularly considering there’s no intermediate signal between Kensington Olympia and Shepherds Bush.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 19 Dec 2025 ==

At a guess, the bay at Cheshunt will be the constraint, or Bury Street Junction.

Then how will it work during the day? Also the Cheshunt bay should easily handle at least 4tph?

 

[Kite159]

I would guess for those Clapham Junction - Shepherds Bush trains, they will turn around on the southbound platform. Timetabled to arrive a couple of minutes after a Clapham bound train departs

Would save the time penalty of platform staff doing an ECS check before the empties heads to the turnback siding, turning back on the southbound platform would mean no ECS check would be needed.

(As for extra Overground trains to West Croydon, crayonist time, could they instead be sent to East Croydon, turning back on platform 5 (in a similar set-up to the Southern trains from Watford Junction)

 

[Class15]

I would guess for those Clapham Junction - Shepherds Bush trains, they will turn around on the southbound platform. Timetabled to arrive a couple of minutes after a Clapham bound train departs

Would save the time penalty of platform staff doing an ECS check before the empties heads to the turnback siding, turning back on the southbound platform would mean no ECS check would be needed.

I’m really doubting this, as during disruption, southern trains will be terminated in the siding rather than the platform, even with an overground train right behind.

 

[zero]

I recall Southern having some Shepherds Bush terminators in the past - but can't remember whether they were from the Watford or Croydon direction or both. How were these turned around?

 

[Kite159]

I recall Southern having some Shepherds Bush terminators in the past - but can't remember whether they were from the Watford or Croydon direction or both. How were these turned around?

Would have been from the Clapham direction as they were DC only units.

 

[amarshe]

And today, 27 December, Southern are running 5 car trains on the Sydenham corridor which are standing room only to London Bridge - full of leisure travellers off shopping and visiting family.

 

[PGAT]

And today, 27 December, Southern are running 5 car trains on the Sydenham corridor which are standing room only to London Bridge - full of leisure travellers off shopping and visiting family.

RTT is showing a mix of 4 and 8 cars. Typically on Saturdays the maximum they put out is 6..

 

[amarshe]

Twixmas. Totally forgotten it’s a Saturday!