Proposed new Channel Tunnel services discussion

[Austriantrain]

I doubt LSPH will have any trouble letting them stable overnight in St Pancras. If they’re using 200m trains then you could easily stack up four overnight without impacting Eurostar’s departures. They would have plenty of time to get 2 trains away and free up a platform for the first arrivals from Paris.

There will be the Virgin operation too, though.

 

[rvdborgt]

Will Eurostar ever sell direct tickets from Brussels to Rotterdam / Amsterdam on their blue trains (ex London)? Why do they not sell them currently?

They did but stopped it after a while.

 

[Trainbike46]

They did but stopped it after a while.

Are you referring to when they sold tickets in the london-bound direction?

Now that the terminals can, at least in theory, fill more than half a train, that is obviously not coming back. I thought @Schweir was referring to the Amsterdam-bound direction, similar to the Lille to Rotterdam/Amsterdam tickets?

 

[rvdborgt]

Are you referring to when they sold tickets in the london-bound direction?

Now that the terminals can, at least in theory, fill more than half a train, that is obviously not coming back. I thought @Schweir was referring to the Amsterdam-bound direction, similar to the Lille to Rotterdam/Amsterdam tickets?

They did indeed sell tickets between Amsterdam/Rotterdam and Brussels, in 2 directions, since it was an obligation in the concession for the high-speed line, but that obligation was dropped in 2022.

 

[TheWierdOne]

There will be the Virgin operation too, though.

A platform each to stable two trains? With two platforms for Eurostar? You’d have to dispatch at a relatively quick beat, but there are sufficient paths to clear all those trains inside an hour, and if LSPH come through with the immigration capacity at St Pancras then that should mean they can all be filled without clogging the entire station.

 

[Snow1964]

I doubt LSPH will have any trouble letting them stable overnight in St Pancras. If they’re using 200m trains then you could easily stack up four overnight without impacting Eurostar’s departures. They would have plenty of time to get 2 trains away and free up a platform for the first arrivals from Paris.

Are the outer International platforms used at Stratford, or could they also be used for stabling and cleaning overnight. I realise would need to run wrong line to or from St Pancras, because can't cross over, but is that a major problem at around midnight or 5am when nothing is heading to/from the tunnel.

But if all Trenitalia need is a couple of overnight cleaning and stabling roads in London area (because the maintenance is done at Paris) to process last inbound evening trains and form first couple of outbound trains in morning then Trenitalia could probably manage in platforms that Eurostar doesn't want.

 

[zwk500]

I doubt LSPH will have any trouble letting them stable overnight in St Pancras. If they’re using 200m trains then you could easily stack up four overnight without impacting Eurostar’s departures. They would have plenty of time to get 2 trains away and free up a platform for the first arrivals from Paris.

The Engineering Access Statement has the following (mid week): https://sacuksprodnrdigital0001.blo...ocuments/EAS 2027/V2/2027 EAS V2 S4 - HS1.pdf

0025 T[uesday]-S[aturday] to 0515 T-S
CTRL RELIEF and Platforms 11,12,13 BLOCKED combined with DOWN CTRL and Platforms 5,6,7 BLOCKED
OR UP CTRL and Platforms 8,9,10 BLOCKED

So ordinarily only 3 platforms are available for stabling. However, RTT suggests 4 trains are currently outstabled by Eurostar today:

Realtime Trains | Departures from St Pancras International between 1900 and 0300 on 08/04/2026

Train information at St Pancras International between 1900 and 0300 on 08/04/2026. From Realtime Trains, an independent source of train running info for Great Britain.

www.realtimetrains.co.uk

Trains are showing terminating in platforms 5,6,7, and 8 but no corresponding outwards workings.

This is permitted, as a note states:

Trains may be stabled in the blocked platforms. If any trains are stabled within blocked platforms any associated overhead line isolation to be withdrawn by 0415 T-S to allow trains to be prepared

But obviously at some point the platforms will need access for maintenance, so at least 1 platform must be planned to be left clear so that there's room to shuffle where trains stable each night to give access.

Are the outer International platforms used at Stratford, or could they also be used for stabling and cleaning overnight.

The EAS requires one half of the station or the other be left clear for maintenance access, so at best 1 train could be outstabled. And getting cleaners to it might be more faff, although it could easily be cleaned in the platforms at St Pancras and then sent out to Stratford to stable.

I realise would need to run wrong line to or from St Pancras, because can't cross over, but is that a major problem at around midnight or 5am when nothing is heading to/from the tunnel.

Probably not. Last ES passenger departure is 2001, last passenger arrival is 2230. Possession opportunities are available from 0035, so it's probably feasible to find a gap each way for the long-term plan and just alternate sides as the actual possessions require. Is slightly awkward though for the driver (but hardly the worst example of an awkward finish on the railway).

But if all Trenitalia need is a couple of overnight cleaning and stabling roads in London area (because the maintenance is done at Paris) to process last inbound evening trains and form first couple of outbound trains in morning then Trenitalia could probably manage in platforms that Eurostar doesn't want.

This assumes that Eurostar don't want all the platforms. As mentioned above, the suggestion from RTT is that at the moment they stable in 4 of the 6 available platforms. that leaves only 1 available platform, if at least 1 platform must be left free for maintenance reasons. Trenitalia are also presumably using UIC-Gauge stock so wouldn't be able to stable a 200m train in the domestic platforms either.

 

[TheWierdOne]

This assumes that Eurostar don't want all the platforms. As mentioned above, the suggestion from RTT is that at the moment they stable in 4 of the 6 available platforms. that leaves only 1 available platform, if at least 1 platform must be left free for maintenance reasons. Trenitalia are also presumably using UIC-Gauge stock so wouldn't be able to stable a 200m train in the domestic platforms either.

Given what we know of Eurostar’s sub optimal depot usage at present, is it possible more stabling space can be freed up both at TMI and St P by freeing up space at TMI?

 

[zwk500]

Given what we know of Eurostar’s sub optimal depot usage at present, is it possible more stabling space can be freed up both at TMI and St P by freeing up space at TMI?

No idea, you'd have to ask the people who wrote the report on TMI for the ORR.

However, I suspect that Trenitalia's proposal will need to include some way to inspect and repair trains in the event a fault develops between Folkestone and London. Therefore, them relying wholly on outstabling at London is unlikely to be seen as operationally flexible enough. How much access this would require to TMI (or an alternative facility, of which there aren't currently any in the UK) I don't know

The EAS doesn't seem to say anything about Ebbsfleet's platforms although a similar issue with needing access to the platform at some point for maintenance will be present, so for normal planning I think it would only be accepted to stable a maximum of 1 UIC gauge train at each of Stratford, Ebbsfleet and Ashford's international platforms.

Also referenced above was that Virgin have been given access rights at TMI, so they may request 1 platform at St Pancras to stable in as well.

 

[TheWierdOne]

However, I suspect that Trenitalia's proposal will need to include some way to inspect and repair trains in the event a fault develops between Folkestone and London. Therefore, them relying wholly on outstabling at London is unlikely to be seen as operationally flexible enough. How much access this would require to TMI (or an alternative facility, of which there aren't currently any in the UK) I don't know

I’ve no doubt HS1 and SNCF would be more than happy to provide a thunderbird and (for HS1) access to emergency stabling, for a competitive hourly rate of course.

 

[Snow1964]

Following last weeks announcement of Trenitalia opening maintenance base in Paris, it has been confirmed that options for 10 ETR1000 from Hitachi have been ordered. Sounds like these 10 are getting different interiors.

ITALY: National railway FS Group’s passenger business Trenitalia has signed a €260m contract for Hitachi Rail to supply a further nine Frecciarossa high speed trainsets.

The order announced by the manufacturer on March 24 builds on an initial 2023 contract for 36 new-generation ETR1000 trainsets which was followed by the exercising of an option for a further 10.


From 2029, when two additional deliveries are expected, there will be 57 new trains in service, with plans to increase the total number to 74 by 2031.

Hitachi Rail said the latest-generation Frecciarossa trainsets to be manufactured at its plants in Napoli and Pistoia are designed to operate on seven other European rail networks (France, Germany, Spain, Austria, Switzerland, Belgium and the Netherlands), and are ‘a trademark of Italian technological and stylistic excellence in high speed rail’. They have a design speed of 360 km/h, with an operating speed of 300 km/h.

The new trains will retain the current exterior design and livery, but will have interior changes by Giugiaro Design and Hitachi Rail’s HMAX for Rail digital asset management system for real time data processing to optimise operations, maintenance and energy consumption.

 

[martin2345uk]

Quick notes on Trenitalia's new maintenance facility at Maisons-Alfort Pompadour

It's been rumoured for months, and finally this week there was official confimation: Trenitalia has the location for its maintenance facility for its Frecciarossa high speed trains in France. News from Railway Gazette here. And it will be at Maisons-Alfort Pompadour. Here on OpenRailwayMap...

jonworth.eu

Interesting article from Jon Worth on the location of Trenitalia’s new Paris depot.

 

[zwk500]

Quick notes on Trenitalia's new maintenance facility at Maisons-Alfort Pompadour

It's been rumoured for months, and finally this week there was official confimation: Trenitalia has the location for its maintenance facility for its Frecciarossa high speed trains in France. News from Railway Gazette here. And it will be at Maisons-Alfort Pompadour. Here on OpenRailwayMap...

jonworth.eu

Interesting article from Jon Worth on the location of Trenitalia’s new Paris depot.

Interesting is a generous description, as is article. All he says is 'it's a long way round Paris' and that Trenitalia won't be keen to do it, which isn't exactly groundbreaking analysis. He needed somebody else to point out the alternative route which he dismisses because of the need for reversal, despite the fact that many ECS and passenger services operate absolutely fine with a reversal.

 

[TheWierdOne]

Interesting is a generous description, as is article. All he says is 'it's a long way round Paris' and that Trenitalia won't be keen to do it, which isn't exactly groundbreaking analysis. He needed somebody else to point out the alternative route which he dismisses because of the need for reversal, despite the fact that many ECS and passenger services operate absolutely fine with a reversal.

In addition, given that controls for Chunnel services are done pre-departure, Trenitalia could (paths notwithstanding) get their trains much closer to the depot while in revenue service by running the odd service round to Disneyland. But I agree, I would also think that Trenitalia will just factor the cost of ECS moves, either via the Interconnexion or the Paris suburbs, into ticket prices and rostering.

If they do go via the suburbs that gives the fun prospect of seeing channel tunnel trains at a level crossing, which I believe hasn’t happened since the ski trains got ditched?

 

[RT4038]

In addition, given that controls for Chunnel services are done pre-departure, Trenitalia could (paths notwithstanding) get their trains much closer to the depot while in revenue service by running the odd service round to Disneyland.

They could, but seeing that they couldn't in the opposite direction without paying for the Immigration and security provision, they probably won't.

 

[Snow1964]

Not sure if it is relevant to the discussion, but Government has issued updated ETA Electronic Travel Authorisation information.

• The UK is moving to a modernised ‘digital permission’ system where international carriers are required to confirm, through automated checks against Home Office records, that passengers have valid permission or status to travel to the UK. All carriers (e.g. airlines, maritime and rail) have now been equipped with the necessary tools to verify travel permission via automated digital checks with the Home Office.

Electronic Travel Authorisation (ETA) factsheet – April 2026 – Home Office in the media

We are making improvements to deliver a more streamlined, digital immigration system which will be quicker and more secure for the millions of people who pass through the UK border each year. Visitors to the UK need an Electronic Travel

homeofficemedia.blog.gov.uk

I might be misreading it, but appears to cover rail, and they need to verify either valid UK or Ireland passport, or ETA, or valid visa. This goes electronically to Home Office. And as far as I can see, providing that is done, that is their responsibility, and actually doing further border checks or rejecting issuing of ETA or visa is not rail operators responsibility

 

[RT4038]

Not sure if it is relevant to the discussion, but Government has issued updated ETA Electronic Travel Authorisation information.

Electronic Travel Authorisation (ETA) factsheet – April 2026 – Home Office in the media

We are making improvements to deliver a more streamlined, digital immigration system which will be quicker and more secure for the millions of people who pass through the UK border each year. Visitors to the UK need an Electronic Travel

homeofficemedia.blog.gov.uk

I might be misreading it, but appears to cover rail, and they need to verify either valid UK or Ireland passport, or ETA, or valid visa. This goes electronically to Home Office. And as far as I can see, providing that is done, that is their responsibility, and actually doing further border checks or rejecting issuing of ETA or visa is not rail operators responsibility

This is to ensure that no (or the very,very minimum) of persons not entitled to enter the Uk arrive on UK soil/concrete/immigration hall. E* do not have to do this because of the juxtapositioned border in Paris, Brussels and Lille (and Amsterdam and Rotterdam now) sorts this issue before passengers have boarded their conveyance.

 

[zwk500]

This is to ensure that no (or the very,very minimum) of persons not entitled to enter the Uk arrive on UK soil/concrete/immigration hall. E* do not have to do this because of the juxtapositioned border in Paris, Brussels and Lille (and Amsterdam and Rotterdam now) sorts this issue before passengers have boarded their conveyance.

Will passengers not need the ETA to pass the juxtaposed controls?

 

[RT4038]

Will passengers not need the ETA to pass the juxtaposed controls?

Of course. But I do not suppose E* will need to check the holding of , and its veracity, of the ETA a few yards before the juxtaposed control.

 

[Snow1964]

Will passengers not need the ETA to pass the juxtaposed controls?

Of course. But I do not suppose E* will need to check the holding of , and its veracity, of the ETA a few yards before the juxtaposed control.

This is where I am unclear too, if they pass the ETA or passport check, is there a subsequent full border control, or is it then just a customs and excise border check, rather than an Immigration check and a customs check.

And seeing as how infrequently customs do physical checks (because it is intelligence led) if there is no formal immigration check for those who have been checked for a valid ETA or UK passport, then does it really matter if board train in say Bordeaux or Geneva rather than Gare de Nord, providing the boarding is checked.

I see this as a fundamental difference to practicality of starting trains at other places

 

[SynthD]

And seeing as how infrequently customs do physical checks (because it is intelligence led) if there is no formal immigration check for those who have been checked for a valid ETA or UK passport, then does it really matter if board train in say Bordeaux or Geneva rather than Gare de Nord, providing the boarding is checked.

The key part is still that the intelligence-led rare checks are made by British officials on foreign soil, which is only a little less difficult and expensive to achieve than frequent checks.

 

[RT4038]

This is where I am unclear too, if they pass the ETA or passport check, is there a subsequent full border control, or is it then just a customs and excise border check, rather than an Immigration check and a customs check.

And seeing as how infrequently customs do physical checks (because it is intelligence led) if there is no formal immigration check for those who have been checked for a valid ETA or UK passport, then does it really matter if board train in say Bordeaux or Geneva rather than Gare de Nord, providing the boarding is checked.

I see this as a fundamental difference to practicality of starting trains at other places

Not at all a fundamental difference. Airlines have to do the full ETA / Visa check before passengers board the aircraft at foreign airports Those passengers then have a full border check on arrival at the UK airport. The airline check is not instead of a UK full border check, it is as well as and is designed to prevent anyone reaching a UK immigration hall without the correct papers (as far as possible). UKBF will still be quizzing entrants and are not pushing responsibility for checking entry onto carriers staff at foreign boarding points.

E* could do the same as the airlines (check the passengers before boarding and then a full immigration check at St Pancras), but there isn't space at St Pancras for that kind of check at present, and passengers would be delayed there (as well as still having the check in time for security and document checking) if they wanted to.

 

[crablab]

But I do not suppose E* will need to check the holding of , and its veracity, of the ETA a few yards before the juxtaposed control.

This is checked in advance using the API (Advanced Passenger Information) submitted and, if the records don't line up, you get a scary looking email.

Likewise with airlines, if they can't verify you have the right documentation to enter the UK, you won't be able to check-in online and have to present the correct documentation in person.

 

[StephenHunter]

How many people have actually tried to enter the UK via Eurostar illegally anyway?

 

[JamesT]

How many people have actually tried to enter the UK via Eurostar illegally anyway?

It seems to be hard to find numbers specifically relating to Eurostar, rather than those trying to get on lorries going through the tunnel or over the channel.
https://hansard.parliament.uk/lords/2010-0119/debates/10011981001629/ChannelTunnel has

From 2007 to 2009, over 5,800 passengers who were inadequately documented or did not meet the UK conditions of entry, were refused entry at the Eurostar ports.

How many of those are trying to get in illegally versus being incompetent with paperwork? And how have things moved on in the last couple of decades?

But one of the suggested reasons for the explosion in small boat numbers, is that security has been tightened up on other methods such that it’s not worth trying.

 

[TheWierdOne]

Earliest date Virgin's international services will start is revealed

Virgin and London St Pancras Highspeed submit track access agreement for HS1.

www.railmagazine.com

Virgin have revealed via a draft track access agreement to the ORR that they plan to start services through the Chunnel in October 2030, with a gradual ramp up of services to full operation in October 2031.

Trenitalia are going for a 2029 start but haven’t submitted an application to the ORR yet.

Virgin aims to start operating international services out of London St Pancras from October 1 2030.

A draft HS1 track access agreement submitted to the Office of Rail and Road (ORR) with London St Pancras Highspeed (LSPH) shows Virgin plans to start with six return paths on the London-Paris route.

This would increase to ten the following year and 13 from October 2031.

It also plans to run four return services to Brussels from February 2031 and three to and from Amsterdam from September that year.

No intermediate stops are planned, and all rights would run until December 31 2040.

Virgin will order 12 200-metre-long Alstom Avelia Stream single-decker trains for use through the Channel Tunnel, although no order has been placed yet.

The inclusion of the Virgin services does have an impact on timetable slots used by existing operators, these range from small flexes to services to shifting of paths into regularised slots,” it noted.


“The increased service does not preclude running daytime freight paths, but doing so requires flexing paths from the notional catalogue of paths, looping freight trains in both HS1 loops and subsequently extending freight journey times.”

An independent assessment also found “no show-stopping or major performance risks”.

Trenitalia, which aims to start running London-Paris services in 2029, is yet to submit a similar track access agreement with LSPH.

 

[NCT]

The inclusion of the Virgin services does have an impact on timetable slots used by existing operators, these range from small flexes to services to shifting of paths into regularised slots

I like the highlighted bit. Would be nice if (say) Eurostar departures from St Pancras are standardised to xx01 (Paris) and xx04 (Brussels / Amsterdam), and Virgin takes xx31 and xx34.

 

[TheWierdOne]

I like the highlighted bit. Would be nice if (say) Eurostar departures from St Pancras are standardised to xx01 (Paris) and xx04 (Brussels / Amsterdam), and Virgin takes xx31 and xx34.

That seems an eminently sensible suggestion. It’s a decent compromise between passenger convenience of 2tph to each destination and avoiding the mess of having to process large quantities of passengers for different operators at the same time.

 

[NCT]

Also interesting implications for St Pancras branding. At the moment everything from pre ticket-check queue to platform is Eurostar branded, and I wonder whether they'll adopt TOC-agnostic, LSPHS branding.

 

[zwk500]

Also interesting implications for St Pancras branding. At the moment everything from pre ticket-check queue to platform is Eurostar branded, and I wonder whether they'll adopt TOC-agnostic, LSPHS branding.

I suspect Virgin will be quite keen for their brand to be as prominent as possible, even if it means sharing the space with Eurostar's branding. We may see 'Eurostar' replaced with 'International' on some of the direction wayfiding. (e.g. 'Eurostar Tickets' replaced with 'International Tickets').