Proposed new Channel Tunnel services discussion

[Sorcerer]

Article on Rail Magazine’s site says Virgin have “Virgin and Alstom have entered a binding agreement for the train manufacturer to supply 12 of its Avelia Stream sets for the company’s Channel Tunnel bid which it is currently exploring.”

Virgin opts for single-decker trains for its Channel Tunnel bid

Virgin and Alstom have entered a binding agreement for the train manufacturer to supply 12 of its Avelia Stream sets

www.railmagazine.com

Interesting development. The Avelia Stream page on Alstom's website suggests that it could either be a Zefiro unit done in consortium with Hitachi, or a New Pendolino unit done entirely by Alstom similar to Italo's ETR 675 units. In the case of the latter no unit on the Pendolino platform has ever been built capable of more than 250km/h, but in practice Italo seems to make it work fine alongside the 300km/h AGV and Trenitalia's units. Maybe a 300km/h unit could be built though since it won't be technically limited by the need for tilting technology that was never deemed suitable for speeds higher than 250km/h.

 

[TheWierdOne]

Article on Rail Magazine’s site says Virgin have “Virgin and Alstom have entered a binding agreement for the train manufacturer to supply 12 of its Avelia Stream sets for the company’s Channel Tunnel bid which it is currently exploring.”

Virgin opts for single-decker trains for its Channel Tunnel bid

Virgin and Alstom have entered a binding agreement for the train manufacturer to supply 12 of its Avelia Stream sets

www.railmagazine.com

Interesting that the train appears to be a New Pendolino. Assuming they run at line speed, that will be the fastest service speed New Pendolino in use. The record speed for the NP is barely above HS1 speeds as it is.

 

[Class 466]

Article on Rail Magazine’s site says Virgin have “Virgin and Alstom have entered a binding agreement for the train manufacturer to supply 12 of its Avelia Stream sets for the company’s Channel Tunnel bid which it is currently exploring.”

Virgin opts for single-decker trains for its Channel Tunnel bid

Virgin and Alstom have entered a binding agreement for the train manufacturer to supply 12 of its Avelia Stream sets

www.railmagazine.com

Personally dissapointed that Virgin's bid is particularly lacking in ambition - they do not bring any new destinations to the table and it looks like they just want to tap into some of the existing revenue on the route

 

[Sorcerer]

Interesting that the train appears to be a New Pendolino. Assuming they run at line speed, that will be the fastest service speed New Pendolino in use. The record speed for the NP is barely above HS1 speeds as it is.

Was this actually covered in the article? I don't have a Rail Magazine account so I couldn't log in to see the rest of it. But if it actually ends up being a New Pendolino this will indeed be the fastest one built if done at max line speed, but I think there's just as much chance of it running a bit slower than Eurostar and TGV trains. This all sort of hinges on whether or not they can get track access over it's competitors.

Personally dissapointed that Virgin's bid is particularly lacking in ambition - they do not bring any new destinations to the table and it looks like they just want to tap into some of the existing revenue on the route

With the way things are now, it's not very easy to set up new services beyond London to Paris or Brussels based on things such as border control and security checks. As it stands the best thing that Virgin could do with any of their new services is add back the Ebbsfleet and Ashford stops. It might not hurt to include Stratford International for some services either, but the Kent services would definitely be a plus for passengers.

 

[Mikey C]

Why would they be buying a tilting train, is it's running mainly on dedicated high speed line?

 

[NCT]

HS1 charges per minute and I'd be surprised if Virgin wants to run a slower service. I don't know how the LGV charging regime works though. Virgin tends to occupy the flagship end of the market - would it want to market itself as 'not as fast as Eurostar'?

Does the Pendolino name still refer to the specific tilting technology platform these days? Or is just a marketable name that doesn't infer a particular platform?

 

[HSTEd]

Why would they be buying a tilting train, is it's running mainly on dedicated high speed line?

I believe that Avelia Stream includes both the Pendolino and the Zefiro.
Non tilting 380km/h Zefiro series trains were sold to China, so I'm not sure if its truly a Pendolino.

 

[Sorcerer]

Why would they be buying a tilting train, is it's running mainly on dedicated high speed line?

The Pendolino platform doesn't have to be built with tilting capabilities, and in fact many new orders such as the PKP and Italo units have been built without them.

Does the Pendolino name still refer to the specific tilting technology platform these days? Or is just a marketable name that doesn't infer a particular platform?

Historically it was specifically a tilting train platform, but these days it's more of a name that stuck around likely due to familiarity despite the newest units not incorporating the Tiltronix system. In fact Alstom themselves seem to prefer using the Avelia brand and would refer to it as an Avelia Pendolino or Avelia Stream.

 

[TheWierdOne]

Was this actually covered in the article? I don't have a Rail Magazine account so I couldn't log in to see the rest of it. But if it actually ends up being a New Pendolino this will indeed be the fastest one built if done at max line speed, but I think there's just as much chance of it running a bit slower than Eurostar and TGV trains. This all sort of hinges on whether or not they can get track access over it's competitors.

From the article:

It’s unclear what specification Alstom and Virgin Trains are currently discussing, although RAIL understands it is likely to be closer to the New Pendolino which operates regularly on the high-speed networks in Europe, reaching top speeds of close to 160mph.

 

[HSTEd]

They are going to get rinsed for paths on the LGV system at 250kph.

 

[Sorcerer]

From the article:

Thank you very much!

From a marketing standpoint it seems logical since Virgin could signify a return to the railways with a new type of service more premium and prestigious than the last one and with a new generation of trains on the same iconic platform they introduced into the UK over twenty years ago.

But from a business viewpoint it seems strange to run them at slower speeds if HS1 charges by the hour and they wouldn't want to be known as "slower than Eurostar", so there might be a chance Virgin and Alstom could try to work towards a 300km/h unit. From a technical standpoint there shouldn't be anything stopping that.

 

[martin2345uk]

Also it doesn’t look immediately rosy for the Kent stations.

It is currently planning on running 20 daily return services from London – 13 of those will head to Paris, four to Brussels and three to Amsterdam if approval is given. It has no plans under its prospective timetable to stop at either Ebbsfleet International or Ashford International. Although RAIL understands discussions have taken place with Kent County Council regarding future stops at these stations.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 13 Aug 2025 ==

Thank you very much!

From a marketing standpoint it seems logical since Virgin could signify a return to the railways with a new type of service more premium and prestigious than the last one and with a new generation of trains on the same iconic platform they introduced into the UK over twenty years ago.

But from a business viewpoint it seems strange to run them at slower speeds if HS1 charges by the hour and they wouldn't want to be known as "slower than Eurostar", so there might be a chance Virgin and Alstom could try to work towards a 300km/h unit. From a technical standpoint there shouldn't be anything stopping that.

Really cannot see the French being happy with 250kph sets, we’re often following other trains quite closely due to various delays that are common, getting stuck behind a 250kmh one would be a royal pain in the backside

 

[Snow1964]

Why would they be buying a tilting train, is it's running mainly on dedicated high speed line?

They are going to get rinsed for paths on the LGV system at 250kph.

They haven't actually announced an exact spec (unless I have just missed it). Alstom say it is from 200 to 300km/h and has options for tilting and winterisation (ideal for Scandinavia etc)

So unless anyone knows better, it might be a non-tilting or 300km/h version

Avelia Stream: High-speed trains with a wide range of applications

With a wide range of applications (from 200 km/h to 300 km/h, options for tilting and/or winter package, short and long-distance configurations, etc.), Avelia Stream™ high-speed trains meets customer expectations by offering multiple configurations and options.

www.alstom.com

 

[Sorcerer]

Really cannot see the French being happy with 250kph sets, we’re often following other trains quite closely due to various delays that are common, getting stuck behind a 250kmh one would be a royal pain in the backside

In that case I can only see two options. Either Alstom and Virgin offer up a 300km/h capable unit or they risk not getting the paths since alternatively Trenitalia can easily procure more Frecciarossa sets running under the Iryo brand. I don't expect SNCF will be happy either way.

 

[vuzzeho]

When was the last New Pendolino built? With advances in technology, and possibly taking some things from the Zefiro platform, could Alstom realistically design a 300kmh New Pendolino?

If it is built, who wants to bet it'll be the Class 890?

 

[Schweir]

Out of interest, can anyone see any of the Kent stations opening anytime soon by either Eurostar or an alternative competitor?

There just seem to be too many drawbacks presently:
- Less competitive on time compared to existing services and therefore increased HS1 charges
- Cost of reopening + large other expenses (security, border staff) for most likely low passenger numbers
- As per previous comments, passenger numbers have been historically low
- Probable lack of demand from continental origins (i.e Paris etc..) to Ashford / Ebbsfleet

Maybe an economic case could be made in time for one to reopen, but I just cannot see how all three would open.

 

[Sorcerer]

When was the last New Pendolino built? With advances in technology, and possibly taking some things from the Zefiro platform, could Alstom realistically design a 300kmh New Pendolino?

I believe the ETR 675 sets for Italo if I'm not mistaken back in 2017. I believe Alstom could realistically design a 300km/h variant though since they already have experience building a high-speed EMU in the form of the AGV (360km/h capable), and both Pendolino and AGV platforms have been brought under the Avelia Stream platform, so technically it should very well be possible if there's no tilting (which there most likely won't be).

If it is built, who wants to bet it'll be the Class 890?

I might've guessed it'd fall under Class 391 since that's one number up from 390, similarly to how the Velaro units became 374s alongside the original 373s. But 890 is just as likely too I reckon since it's all next generation.

 

[TheWierdOne]

When was the last New Pendolino built? With advances in technology, and possibly taking some things from the Zefiro platform, could Alstom realistically design a 300kmh New Pendolino?

If it is built, who wants to bet it'll be the Class 890?

I would assume boosting a New Pendolino to 300 kph would be relatively trivial. It’s not as if it’s going from a commuter unit to high speed

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 13 Aug 2025 ==

Out of interest, can anyone see any of the Kent stations opening anytime soon by either Eurostar or an alternative competitor?

There just seem to be too many drawbacks presently:
- Less competitive on time compared to existing services and therefore increased HS1 charges
- Cost of reopening + large other expenses (security, border staff) for most likely low passenger numbers
- As per previous comments, passenger numbers have been historically low
- Probable lack of demand from continental origins (i.e Paris etc..) to Ashford / Ebbsfleet

Maybe an economic case could be made in time for one to reopen, but I just cannot see how all three would open.

I would doubt it, unless the operators can agree to share costs, and no one will want to be first move for what has historically been a handful of passengers

 

[pokemonsuper9]

I might've guessed it'd fall under Class 391 since that's one number up from 390, similarly to how the Velaro units became 374s alongside the original 373s. But 890 is just as likely too I reckon since it's all next generation.

Or the next in the 37x set, originally intended for new high speed trains (as per 370 (APT), 373 and 374) although it looks like the Electrostars have taken 375-379 now, so only 370-372 are free.
I think a 8xx designation is very likely.

 

[TheWierdOne]

Or the next in the 37x set, originally intended for new high speed trains (as per 370 (APT), 373 and 374) although it looks like the Electrostars have taken 375-379 now, so only 370-372 are free.
I think a 8xx designation is very likely.

Given that HS2 is using Zefiro V300s designated as Class 895, the units could be 895 variants, or an 896, if Virgin decide to take a straight Zefiro, or something in the high end of 8xx if they do indeed go for a NP.

 

[cle]

I wouldn't say it's the same; services removed never had competition, and no-one was ever planning to compete on those (South of France directs, Disney directs). New services that stuck and continued were the Amsterdams, and no-one has seriously suggested competing on those other than possibly DB years before Eurostar started to offer them.

If it was just about maximising the amount of depot space they needed, they could just increase the Paris frequency to half-hourly and increase the Amsterdam frequency more quickly.

Who's to say they won't.... see the Virgin news today, more gamesmanship.

And arguably they went from 3-5 Amsterdam fairly quickly, and I could see more in reaction.

I welcome it all - some actual competition, higher frequency, lower fares / choices based on experience and loyalty... much like an airline. And more jobs too. Only good for us all.

 

[signed]

And arguably they went from 3-5 Amsterdam fairly quickly, and I could see more in reaction.

Wasn't the limitation on how many Amsterdam can be ran on ProRail for a time? I might be wrong though.

 

[Trainbike46]

Who's to say they won't.... see the Virgin news today, more gamesmanship.

And arguably they went from 3-5 Amsterdam fairly quickly, and I could see more in reaction.

I welcome it all - some actual competition, higher frequency, lower fares / choices based on experience and loyalty... much like an airline. And more jobs too. Only good for us all.

Guess there we have the first serious proposal from a competitor to run to Amsterdam - from Virgin of all places.

More Amsterdam services would be a good thing in my book, whoever operates them. Though in practice I suspect I'd stick with Eurostar unless Virgin is noticeably cheaper.

Wasn't the limitation on how many Amsterdam can be ran on ProRail for a time? I might be wrong though.

The path exists every hour (technically every thirty minutes, but the other one is taken by Paris services), so I suspect there's no limitations from Prorail's side. There are restrictions on border official availability that can likely be resolved if the next minister is more sensible than the last one. There would also have to be an application to various bodies (including the ACM), but I don't think that'd be an issue.

 

[TheWierdOne]

Guess there we have the first serious proposal from a competitor to run to Amsterdam - from Virgin of all places.

More Amsterdam services would be a good thing in my book, whoever operates them. Though in practice I suspect I'd stick with Eurostar unless Virgin is noticeably cheaper.

The path exists every hour (technically every thirty minutes, but the other one is taken by Paris services), so I suspect there's no limitations from Prorail's side. There are restrictions on border official availability that can likely be resolved if the next minister is more sensible than the last one. There would also have to be an application to various bodies (including the ACM), but I don't think that'd be an issue.

It’s safe to assume as well that any serious competitor will have talked with SNCF Réseau, ProRail and Infrabel. If you’re after private funding, they’re not going to give you the time of day if you don’t have some firm idea that you can access the the routes you’re proposing

 

[Krokodil]

winterisation (ideal for Scandinavia etc)

Didn't Eurostar have issues with cold weather a few years back?

 

[martin2345uk]

Didn't Eurostar have issues with cold weather a few years back?

Yes; since then the e300's have had a few modifications and there is a winter driving policy for when it gets very cold.

 

[Bald Rick]

Airlines can can do temporary 'predatory' expansion because they can cycle the same aircraft over different routes across their network.

Airlines also only need to sell around 180 seats each way, and don’t (usually) have to pay to set up border controls at the airports they serve.

Eurostar will need to sell 3 times that many seats and pay for the border control…

Personally dissapointed that Virgin's bid is particularly lacking in ambition - they do not bring any new destinations to the table and it looks like they just want to tap into some of the existing revenue on the route

Well of course it is, I’m surprised anyone thinks differently!

 

[NCT]

Personally dissapointed that Virgin's bid is particularly lacking in ambition - they do not bring any new destinations to the table and it looks like they just want to tap into some of the existing revenue on the route

A seat is a seat and a passenger is a passenger. If the market is rational and the rational market decides the best way to fill additional seats is to exploit the suppressed part of the mature London - Paris market, then that's an economically efficient outcome.

 

[Fincra5]

Is there any reason Virgin decided against Double Decker sets? Is there any of the route they wouldn't be possible?

 

[Snow1964]

Is there any reason Virgin decided against Double Decker sets? Is there any of the route they wouldn't be possible?

They might be hedging their bets, risk minimisation for a train leasing Co, with alternatives if a Virgin service across channel doesn't work out.