Proposed new Channel Tunnel services discussion

[Trainbike46]

The disney trains are processed at Lille on the way back.

There are no disney trains currently, but when they ran French exit checks where in Marne-la-Vallee, and British entry checks were in St Pancras. South of France trains and Ski trains used the Lille shuffle, never the disney trains.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 19 Jul 2025 ==

How is this done for the Amsterdam-bound Eurostar services? Can people board these trains at Lille/Brussels?

It used to be possible for people to board at Lille towards Brussels, but that is no longer the case. I'm guessing this disappeared when Eurostar stopped offering intra-schengen trains towards Lille.

The "customs checks" usually consist of the obligation on anyone carrying anything that needs to be declared to contact customs on arrival - there are no lanes, checks, or buildings; and in both Amsterdam and Rotterdam the train stops on general platforms, just like any domestic train would - sometimes there is even a domestic train arriving on the same island platform at the same time.

I don't really get why Eurostar wouldn't offer tickets on Lille-Brussels/Rotterdam/Amsterdam in the Amsterdam-bound direction only - just tie those tickets to seats for London-Lille passengers.

 

[Adsy125]

Eurostar will happily offer me tickets from Lille to Brussels in that direction only, but nothing beyond Brussels.

 

[Trainbike46]

Eurostar will happily offer me tickets from Lille to Brussels in that direction only, but nothing beyond Brussels.

you're right! It appears to be fixed price. Surprising they only offer it to Brussels but not beyond.

Update: there are in fact direct Lille-Amsterdam tickets on some trains, e.g. this one:

 

[StephenHunter]

I've seen recent mention of Frankfurt and Cologne as a possible future destination, and out of them two I think Frankfurt makes slightly more sense given it's status as a global hub for commerce, culture and tourism similar to London, though perhaps ideally we could get both with the Frankfurt services serving Cologne as an intermediate stop for passengers.

You could say Frankfurt is the Main attraction. It's also got a massive airport that will be useful for shorter journeys, like Americans "doing Europe".

 

[MarkyT]

You could say Frankfurt is the Main attraction. It's also got a massive airport that will be useful for shorter journeys, like Americans "doing Europe".

Though Cologne is a huge connectional hub for a very populous and industrialised area for the business traffic, if they can find a way to accommodate the trains at the main station in the limited number of platforms.

 

[Shrop]

So here we are after over 1000 messages on this thread, most of which have been wandering around the general point that THE biggest reason we can't have more through trains between the UK and Europe is border security.
Which leads me to another point, ie just how fortunate the USA is to have a vast country where this doesn't present a problem. And yet with such an enormous relative advantage, such a tiny minority of their weird and wonderful population is incapable of embracing the benefits of rail travel. Funny old world!

 

[Full Standing]

The EU (and British) custom checks culture anyway is to do mostly spot/intelligence check and self-declaration lines (Blue, Green, Red). And the ES website reinforces that

I think its self declare, I don’t remember my bags being checked. Trains are a very low risk for customs.

Eurostar will happily offer me tickets from Lille to Brussels in that direction only, but nothing beyond Brussels.

That's interesting to know, so customs aren't really an issue for these services, even if intra-Schengen passengers join en-route for ex-UK services. So far I only arrived at the Eurostar terminal at Brussels when I took Eurostar, where the platforms are isolated and upon exit I passed something that looked like green/red customs lanes with people in red uniforms standing at the red lane. Hence I thought you would have to separate EU/non-EU flows somehow.

 

[signed]

That's interesting to know, so customs aren't really an issue for these services, even if intra-Schengen passengers join en-route for ex-UK services. So far I only arrived at the Eurostar terminal at Brussels when I took Eurostar, where the platforms are isolated and upon exit I passed something that looked like green/red customs lanes with people in red uniforms standing at the red lane. Hence I thought you would have to separate EU/non-EU flows somehow.

How airports do it is using a Blue lane

 

[Farnborough]

You could say Frankfurt is the Main attraction.

Where's the "groan" emoji?

 

[RT4038]

So here we are after over 1000 messages on this thread, most of which have been wandering around the general point that THE biggest reason we can't have more through trains between the UK and Europe is border security.
Which leads me to another point, ie just how fortunate the USA is to have a vast country where this doesn't present a problem. And yet with such an enormous relative advantage, such a tiny minority of their weird and wonderful population is incapable of embracing the benefits of rail travel. Funny old world!

Well except it is a big problem at their own vast border, which has resulted in various cross border train cancellations and now only four cross border trains in each direction per day, with quite a palaver on them too! I don't think there has been any cross border through passenger trains to and from Mexico (certainly not in the last 70+ years) and the Canadian services are well attenuated.

Around the world, the number of cross border through trains passing across 'hard' (i.e. where immigration checks are carried out) borders has diminished to the extent that E* probably represents close to 50% of the daily trains? Where they do happen, this is often with trains waiting an hour or more for the check to be carried out, or all the passengers having to alight.

 

[30907]

Another issue with Cologne is space to terminate and fit in border controls. The alternative terminus to Frankfurt would probably need to be Dortmund.

Dortmund adds zilch to Cologne in terms of connections and isnt a hugely significant destination whereas Frankfurt opens up Central Germany and is commercially significant.
(Eurostar Red operate to Essen or Dortmund in marginal time only and serve Düsseldorf en route which Blue couldn't.)

When I search on the Eurostar website (or DB Navigator) for Brussels - Amsterdam, the ex-London services don't come up.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 19 Jul 2025 ==

Perhaps because Eurostar (red) already operate that route?

Surely a sleeper from Paris is a much better sell? You could have a breakfast or dinner in Paris as well. The area around the Brussels stations are bad for a stopover.

Not sure whose post this was but: Paris is probably better but you can't realistically use Nord for sleepers except via Brussels, and anywhere else involves changing stations.

 

[Roast Veg]

Around the world, the number of cross border through trains passing across 'hard' (i.e. where immigration checks are carried out) borders has diminished to the extent that E* probably represents close to 50% of the daily trains?

This is almost certainly not true. At the very least, the 2 stop metro between Malaysia and Singapore will rapidly eclipse Eurostar once it opens.

 

[popeter45]

This is almost certainly not true. At the very least, the 2 stop metro between Malaysia and Singapore will rapidly eclipse Eurostar once it opens.

and Hong Kong to mainland China is treated as a hard boarder, Lo Wu is a major Rail Based Boarder crossing still

West Kowloon also acts similar to Eurostar

 

[Chester1]

Dortmund adds zilch to Cologne in terms of connections and isnt a hugely significant destination whereas Frankfurt opens up Central Germany and is commercially significant.
(Eurostar Red operate to Essen or Dortmund in marginal time only and serve Düsseldorf en route which Blue couldn't.)

I was thinking along lines of Eurostar Red service but I agree its not as viable as Frankfurt. I don't think even Frankfurt would be commercially viable based on the failure of all proposals for it over the last 20 years. 200m units splitting and joining at Cologne could work for a subsidised service, with the second set going to Dortmund rather than waiting in a siding somewhere near Cologne. 200m unit with 450-500 seats twice a day would likely be enough to saturate London - Frankfurt market. If there isn't sufficient market for Cologne and Dortmund the second set could be dropped at Brussels instead. If the service was operated by DB as a management contract on behalf of the UK and German governments then it could serve Ebbsfleet and Ashford. Eurostar are not keen to serve them again but they did for 25 years demonstrating they are not a basket case.

 

[TheWierdOne]

and Hong Kong to mainland China is treated as a hard boarder, Lo Wu is a major Rail Based Boarder crossing still

West Kowloon also acts similar to Eurostar

Important to note that Hong Kong’s high speed rail does all controls (Chinese and Hong Kong) only at West Kowloon, outbound you do HK exit and Chinese entry before boarding, and inbound you Chinese exit and HK entry after alighting. Eurostar equivalent would be all controls at London, which might be politically tricky.

 

[jon0844]

Important to note that Hong Kong’s high speed rail does all controls (Chinese and Hong Kong) only at West Kowloon, outbound you do HK exit and Chinese entry before boarding, and inbound you Chinese exit and HK entry after alighting. Eurostar equivalent would be all controls at London, which might be politically tricky.

Stop the train in the middle of the tunnel to do the checks in the service tunnel.... Any issues, through the other door and onto a train going the other way.

Can't believe nobody thought of this before.

 

[Shrop]

Well except it is a big problem at their own vast border, which has resulted in various cross border train cancellations and now only four cross border trains in each direction per day, with quite a palaver on them too! I don't think there has been any cross border through passenger trains to and from Mexico (certainly not in the last 70+ years) and the Canadian services are well attenuated.

It's not all that comparable. I'd suggest that the numbers of US citizens who don't cross into Mexico or Canada, are rather higher than the numbers of UK citizens who don't cross into continental Europe.

 

[RT4038]

This is almost certainly not true. At the very least, the 2 stop metro between Malaysia and Singapore will rapidly eclipse Eurostar once it opens.

'once it opens' and even then is a very short distance shuttle operation basically between borders, from one side of the border to the other, not dissimilar to the concept of 'Le Shuttle'. Not really comparable to the operations of E* or (say) the New York-Montreal train or Sofia-Istanbul train (or the handsful of others around the world)

and Hong Kong to mainland China is treated as a hard boarder, Lo Wu is a major Rail Based Boarder crossing still

West Kowloon also acts similar to Eurostar

It is not a real 'hard' border though, it is an internal border within the same country. That does not have the same international legal standing, or issues.

E* is the largest 'cross hard border' long distance passenger train operation in the world, and a very high propoprtion of such trains.

 

[Brubulus]

Important to note that Hong Kong’s high speed rail does all controls (Chinese and Hong Kong) only at West Kowloon, outbound you do HK exit and Chinese entry before boarding, and inbound you Chinese exit and HK entry after alighting. Eurostar equivalent would be all controls at London, which might be politically tricky.

It's not going to be that politically tricky, it's mutually beneficial for both sides to have controls in London, and I suspect it will happen sooner rather than later given the limited range of UK destinations and extensive possible EU destinations.

 

[TheWierdOne]

It's not going to be that politically tricky, it's mutually beneficial for both sides to have controls in London, and I suspect it will happen sooner rather than later given the limited range of UK destinations and extensive possible EU destinations.

It would be mutually beneficial from a transport perspective but the politics would be a nightmare. Unless Eurostar ran their own controls on passengers before boarding, people could theoretically take the train to London, pass through French exit checks and then claim asylum at the UK entry checks. To prevent that there would need to be a treaty with France allowing anyone found to be inadmissible to the UK to be immediately deported back to France (which the French almost certainly wouldn’t allow), or to have checks before boarding.

You could potentially allow Eurostar to ping the Home Office database with passenger details beforehand to make sure they are all admissible, but I’m not sure the Home Office would be up for that, and it would still require checks on boarding to make sure everyone is who they say they are.

 

[Roast Veg]

It is not a real 'hard' border though, it is an internal border within the same country. That does not have the same international legal standing, or issues.

It is a real hard border - with visa implications, passport checks, and international security. The fact that the origin and destination are de jure within the People's Republic of China does not change that reality.

 

[bspahh]

It would be mutually beneficial from a transport perspective but the politics would be a nightmare. Unless Eurostar ran their own controls on passengers before boarding, people could theoretically take the train to London, pass through French exit checks and then claim asylum at the UK entry checks. To prevent that there would need to be a treaty with France allowing anyone found to be inadmissible to the UK to be immediately deported back to France (which the French almost certainly wouldn’t allow), or to have checks before boarding.

You could potentially allow Eurostar to ping the Home Office database with passenger details beforehand to make sure they are all admissible, but I’m not sure the Home Office would be up for that, and it would still require checks on boarding to make sure everyone is who they say they are.

You already need to submit your details of your passport or ID before you travel on Eurostar. I assume that this is checked with the Home Office.

Even if the official French passport control was at St Pancras, I'm sure that there would still be passport/ID checks before you get there, just ones that you might be able to dodge.
The details would need to be worked out:

• If someone is rejected at the passport control in London, how would they be returned? Would it be on a secure area on a train, or by coach? If they weren't returned immediately, where would they be held?
• If they had a heart attack in French territory in London, while they are treated, would they need to be guarded, by who and how securely?

Given sufficient political will, anything is possible. Who pays, who gets the credit for the good news, and who takes the stick for the bad news are the tricky things.

 

[signed]

You could potentially allow Eurostar to ping the Home Office database with passenger details beforehand to make sure they are all admissible, but I’m not sure the Home Office would be up for that, and it would still require checks on boarding to make sure everyone is who they say they are.

Skipping the political unreasonableness, that is bound to happen at some time in the future

The Australia/New Zealand model of airlines having a gov official OK TO BOARD works great and IMHO is the best way to deal with boarding and pre-auth.

Though you would need the entire immigration system to be digital, which when the eVisa system gets fully in place it will be.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 21 Jul 2025 ==

If someone is rejected at the passport control in London, how would they be returned? Would it be on a secure area on a train, or by coach? If they weren't returned immediately, where would they be held?

Like with airlines, Eurostar would have the burden of getting them back if they came on Eurostar

 

[zwk500]

• If someone is rejected at the passport control in London, how would they be returned? Would it be on a secure area on a train, or by coach? If they weren't returned immediately, where would they be held?

There are interview rooms at St Pancras so presumably there is some level of secure holding with it suitable for border control. There are presumably already processes for people arriving by air or sea who need to be turned around, which could be adapted.

• If they had a heart attack in French territory in London, while they are treated, would they need to be guarded, by who and how securely?

Is this any different to a transiting airline passenger or similar?

Given sufficient political will, anything is possible. Who pays, who gets the credit for the good news, and who takes the stick for the bad news are the tricky things.

Agreed.

 

[NCT]

For proper train economics to work, you need people to be able to board a Eurostar at Koeln Hbf just like they board and ICE - i.e. passengers are not methodically screened as or before they board. None of the border 'innovations' suggested in the last dozen posts permits this.

 

[zwk500]

For proper train economics to work, you need people to be able to board a Eurostar at Koeln Hbf just like they board and ICE - i.e. passengers are not methodically screened as or before they board. None of the border 'innovations' suggested in the last dozen posts permits this.

To be able to do that you need the British government to change a very long-standing policy in favour of less secure borders, and that's not going to happen in the current political climate.

 

[RT4038]

It is a real hard border - with visa implications, passport checks, and international security. The fact that the origin and destination are de jure within the People's Republic of China does not change that reality.

It does - there is no chance of a passenger being refused entry into Hong Kong from PRC and the PRC refusing to take them back, or v.v. The reality is that it is an internal border, however rigidly enforced, which is not the same as that between France and the UK (for instance).

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 21 Jul 2025 ==

It's not going to be that politically tricky, it's mutually beneficial for both sides to have controls in London, and I suspect it will happen sooner rather than later given the limited range of UK destinations and extensive possible EU destinations.

For proper train economics to work, you need people to be able to board a Eurostar at Koeln Hbf just like they board and ICE - i.e. passengers are not methodically screened as or before they board. None of the border 'innovations' suggested in the last dozen posts permits this.

E* could have the entry control in London (like the airlines do), but that means that, like the airlines, E* have got to be very sure that every passenger boarding their train in continental Europe has to be in posession of the correct travel documents. So no mixing of domestic and international passengers. When you board a flight to London from foreign parts, the airline is making jolly sure that you have the correct documentation and that is what E* would have to do . Anyone who gets through and is turned back at the UK gets the carrier a fine, gets the carrier a large bill for their incarceration/maintenance and journey back and (if it happens too often and/or the carrier is negligent) their licence to serve the UK will be revoked. And of course there will be the delay of all passengers going through immigration on arrival in London (as with the airlines) and the need to find the space to do this.

So @NCT you are quite right to state that the train economics do not stack up apart from highly trafficked routes. Which probably goes some way to explain why 'cross hard border' train services have virtually disappeared all over the world.

 

[renegademaster]

deported back to France (which the French almost certainly wouldn’t allow

With a sufficient enough bribe economic partnership agreement, it might be possible, whether it would be worth the cost is a different issue and depends on the price they ask

 

[NCT]

In summary, 'get them to London and ask questions later' won't work under the current political climate.

 

[RT4038]

In summary, 'get them to London and ask questions later' won't work under the current political climate.

It is not allowed to the Airlines, and isn't / wouldn't be allowed to E* either. That is unlikely to change in the current migration (in its widest sense) environment either.