Proposed new Channel Tunnel services discussion

[AlastairFraser]

The fundamental problem (according to the Daily Mail) is the chance someone might possibly ever crossed the border without permission

Why does this impact on a MlV to Ebbsfleet operation with the same controls seen at St Pancras/Gare du Nord.

 

[Bald Rick]

Why does this impact on a MlV to Ebbsfleet operation with the same controls seen at St Pancras/Gare du Nord.

Its not an impact as such, but it does mean that any new operstor using those stations has to pay exclusively for the border controls at those stations, adding to their cost base.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 23 Mar 2025 ==

They have used out of city terminals in other cities though (e.g Lyon Saint-Exupery TGV, so it's not unheard of for a lower-cost operator (note not full-on low cost) to use this as a way to reduce costs and make access easier for drivers.

Yes they do, but usually in the same way as the regular TGVs, ie for the services by passing Lyon etc.

Ouigo use the main stations in each of Marseille, Montpellier, Nice, Bordeaux, Toulouse, Nantes, Rennes, etc.

 

[Cloud Strife]

How capable of dealing with arriving passengers in need of passport control does St Pancras have to be?

Quite capable, as you need the desks, a place for secondary control, interview rooms, detention facilities,

By only serving destinations with juxtaposed controls, you can remove all of that, and replace it with just a small facility for the purposes of customs control.

Does anyone know if St Pancras has red/green corridors for customs control on arrival?

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 23 Mar 2025 ==

How capable of dealing with arriving passengers in need of passport control does St Pancras have to be?

Quite capable, as you need the desks, a place for secondary control, interview rooms, detention facilities, you need a lot of IT infrastructure, etc. It's surprisingly quite complicated to deal with, because most people only ever see a desk or a machine.

By only serving destinations with juxtaposed controls, you can remove all of that, and replace it with just a small facility for the purposes of customs control. If you want to carry out a full control on arrival, then it can be done with mobile terminals because the vast majority of passengers have already been checked properly.

Does anyone know if St Pancras has red/green corridors for customs control on arrival?

 

[signed]

Does anyone know if St Pancras has red/green corridors for customs control on arrival?

From my limited recollection, there is

 

[AlastairFraser]

Its not an impact as such, but it does mean that any new operstor using those ststins has to pay exclusively for the border controls at those stations, adding to their cost base.

Depending on seat density and train length, they may be able to spread the cost over more passengers than E* can carry (especially if they only operate within hours that could mean only one shift of border control and security staff are required, like e.g. Kerry airport in the Republic)

Yes they do, but usually in the same way as the regular TGVs, ie for the services by passing Lyon etc.

Ouigo use the main stations in each of Marseille, Montpellier, Nice, Bordeaux, Toulouse, Nantes, Rennes, etc.

Good, then, it's feasible.

 

[Roast Veg]

Quite capable, as you need the desks, a place for secondary control, interview rooms, detention facilities, you need a lot of IT infrastructure, etc.

Point of information, but STP does have interview rooms. I've been detained in one for a few hours.

 

[Bald Rick]

Depending on seat density and train length, they may be able to spread the cost over more passengers than E* can carry (especially if they only operate within hours that could mean only one shift of border control and security staff are required, like e.g. Kerry airport in the Republic)

If there is the capacity (space, and numbers of border control staff) to do that with a Ouigo style train load of passengers at Ebbsfleet. Which, currently, there isn’t on either count. (There isn’t space to deal with half a Eurostar’s worth of passengers!)

Good, then, it's feasible.

That’s a matter of debate (see border control issue above), but the feasibility relies on the prospective operstor serving stations already served, and not ‘lower cost’ stations elsewhere.

 

[AlastairFraser]

If there is the capacity (space, and numbers of border control staff) to do that with a Ouigo style train load of passengers at Ebbsfleet. Which, currently, there isn’t on either count. (There isn’t space to deal with half a Eurostar’s worth of passengers!)




That’s a matter of debate (see border control issue above), but the feasibility relies on the prospective operstor serving stations already served, and not ‘lower cost’ stations elsewhere.

1) How come there isn't enough space at Ebbsfleet?
2) It doesn't necessarily depend on using existing stations, you would be trying to attract a different market with this proposal. People who live in Essex/Kent/Surrey/further afield and want to drive to the station would prefer Ebbsfleet over St Pancras.

 

[Trainbike46]

A low-cost operation requires the operating costs being lower than the incumbent or competitors. Most of what you have proposed would be *higher* operational costs compared to Eurostar. The only one of your proposals that has the potential for lower costs is increasing the number of seats per train, using Ouigo-style densities.

Ebbsfleet was never designed to fill up a complete train, it was designed to fill up a portion of the seats of a train that started back in St Pancras, which is likely why it wouldn't be capable of filling a high-density cross-channel train, which, assuming we're talking similar density to Ouigo in France, would have well over 1200 seats.

 

[Bald Rick]

How come there isn't enough space at Ebbsfleet?

Because the international facilities were sized for the expected demand joining trains that had come from St Pancras and were largely filled there.

Now imagine a Ouigo style train - standard only, double deck, capacity 1500 or so. This is what makes for a low cost operation. How long does it take to process 1500 passengers through security and 2 x border control? With 10 lanes and assuming 30 seconds per passenger, it’s 75 minutes. So you need somewhere big enough and secure enough for 10 lanes worth of security and 2 x Border Control, and able to hold 1500 people, and you want your passengers to arrive in a window 30-120 minutes before each departure, but you don’t want a rush in the last hour or they won’t all get through. So you’ll be advertising that last check in will be inthe region of 90minutes before departure (you wouldn’t advertise 75 minutes, as that will be misunderstood by a proportion of the travelling public).

Ebbsfleet does not have this space (accepting it could be built). However the running cost of 10 lanes of security + 2 x border control will be significant.

 

[AlastairFraser]

Because the international facilities were sized for the expected demand joining trains that had come from St Pancras and were largely filled there.

Now imagine a Ouigo style train - standard only, double deck, capacity 1500 or so. This is what makes for a low cost operation. How long does it take to process 1500 passengers through security and 2 x border control? With 10 lanes and assuming 30 seconds per passenger, it’s 75 minutes. So you need somewhere big enough and secure enough for 10 lanes worth of security and 2 x Border Control, and able to hold 1500 people, and you want your passengers to arrive in a window 30-120 minutes before each departure, but you don’t want a rush in the last hour or they won’t all get through. So you’ll be advertising that last check in will be inthe region of 90minutes before departure (you wouldn’t advertise 75 minutes, as that will be misunderstood by a proportion of the travelling public).

Ebbsfleet does not have this space (accepting it could be built). However the running cost of 10 lanes of security + 2 x border control will be significant.

OK, fair enough. It wasn't built with enough capacity, but if we are serious about a more significant increase in rail's share of the passenger market between the UK and the continent, we need to plan projects like reopening Ebbsfleet at least (if not Ashford as well) to add a lot more capacity.

It may require a sizeable investment to enable this project, but with 46 flights a day London to Paris remaining, it's still a reasonably large market to target.

 

[Cloud Strife]

It wasn't built with enough capacity, but if we are serious about a more significant increase in rail's share of the passenger market between the UK and the continent, we need to plan projects like reopening Ebbsfleet at least

It's not an insurmountable obstacle, but it would need an operator willing to put the money in. There's plenty of space in Ebbsfleet to expand if needs be, but I think the real problem is that Ebbsfleet is just too far out.

It's a pity that the intermediate stations were relatively underbuilt, because Stratford International is an ideal place to start a low-cost operation. I'm still surprised that they didn't build it with several terminating platforms.

 

[zwk500]

OK, fair enough. It wasn't built with enough capacity, but if we are serious about a more significant increase in rail's share of the passenger market between the UK and the continent, we need to plan projects like reopening Ebbsfleet at least (if not Ashford as well) to add a lot more capacity.

As has just been explained, opening those two stations adds a small amount of capacity.

It may require a sizeable investment to enable this project, but with 46 flights a day London to Paris remaining, it's still a reasonably large market to target.

Many of those flights will continue to be made regardless of the train because there are people who prefer flying, are connecting on, or find it easier to get to their nearest airport than to any HS1 station. Best thing for Eurostar to do is raise the frequency from St Pancras to Gare du Nord so that they can insert Kent stops later.

 

[AlastairFraser]

It's not an insurmountable obstacle, but it would need an operator willing to put the money in. There's plenty of space in Ebbsfleet to expand if needs be, but I think the real problem is that Ebbsfleet is just too far out.

It's a pity that the intermediate stations were relatively underbuilt, because Stratford International is an ideal place to start a low-cost operation. I'm still surprised that they didn't build it with several terminating platforms.

Stratford is a constrained site and doesn't have as good road access, and, as I said, drivers from outside of London is who you are really targeting.

As has just been explained, opening those two stations adds a small amount of capacity.

Many of those flights will continue to be made regardless of the train because there are people who prefer flying, are connecting on, or find it easier to get to their nearest airport than to any HS1 station. Best thing for Eurostar to do is raise the frequency from St Pancras to Gare du Nord so that they can insert Kent stops later.

Ebbsfleet has the potential for many more passengers if implemented correctly.

We have to do something about the frequency of short distance flights in this part of Europe, and London to Paris is an easy target, because there is already a link with a reasonable journey time.

Eurostar can only provide so many seats London to Paris and they also waste capacity with Premier and Plus classes, which will carry less passengers than all standard class crowdbusters.

I'm not advocating ending their services completely, or course not, but there is a market for a service from outside of London easily accessible by road and perhaps at a slightly lower cost than E*. Let's see if someone can pull that off. This forum tends to be notoriously pessimistic, so I think that we need to evaluate the situation again in 5 years, once the outcome of the Temple Mills sharing application and other factors is known.

 

[TheWierdOne]

A new challenger has entered the arena! Gemini Rail have an application with the ORR for depot access at Temple Mills.

Railnews - New Channel Tunnel open access bid launched

railnews.mobi

Gemini Trains has applied to the Office of Rail and Road for an open access licence to operate between London and Paris, with other routes planned to follow. Gemini has also applied for access rights to the Temple Mills Eurostar depot in east London, which is already at the centre of a dispute with another international open access contender.

Gemini is being led by its chair Lord Tony Berkeley, who has been a critic of HS2 for many years.


He said: ‘Our team has real strength, depth, vision and dynamism and is superbly placed to offer customers choice on what is currently a monopoly route.’

His colleague, CEO Adrian Quine, added: ‘The high-speed line connecting London and the continent through the Channel Tunnel is one of the great rail routes. With a whole new generation now choosing trains over planes, there is a great opportunity to bring real entrepreneurial flair and dynamism with competitive fares to Europe's premier route.’

If anyone knows any more about these chappies then do enlighten us. Lord Berkeley and Adrian Quine have a hefty chunk of experience behind them but there’s not much more information on the company beyond those two names.

Edit: here’s their website geminitrains.com

They appear to be angling to stop at Ebbsfleet.

 

[signed]

Is there even any spare capacity available at Paris Nord for 2, 3 or 4 operators? There are only 4 Blue tracks and a badly designed terminal. I doubt it, seeing how badly the crowd is negociated before passport control.

 

[Meerkat]

Stratford is a constrained site and doesn't have as good road access, and, as I said, drivers from outside of London is who you are really targeting.

Maybe stop at Ebbsfleet and Stratford, with seats sold split between them as per station capacity (still would need expanding). Ebbsfleet would be great for people driving from the Home Counties; Stratford has good public transport links covering a significant population (and business area).
But you have to pay for two lots of border control so you need frequent trains to have a hope of making it work.

 

[AlastairFraser]

Maybe stop at Ebbsfleet and Stratford, with seats sold split between them as per station capacity (still would need expanding). Ebbsfleet would be great for people driving from the Home Counties; Stratford has good public transport links covering a significant population (and business area).
But you have to pay for two lots of border control so you need frequent trains to have a hope of making it work.

It's not a bad idea, but I'm not sure if you could afford 2 border control teams.

 

[Bald Rick]

Maybe stop at Ebbsfleet and Stratford

If you are going to Stratford, you going to St Pancras (or very nearly). Why would you avoid the best connected station that is closest to the customer base?

 

[Cloud Strife]

It's not a bad idea, but I'm not sure if you could afford 2 border control teams.

Generally speaking, the cost of border control is actually coming down through the use of e-gates. If you look at what's happening in Spanish airports and at La Linea, they've often got as little as two officers on duty to cover a large amount of e-gates.

One alternative option is that any startup operator could use Ebbsfleet by having both Schengen entry/exit controls there as well as the UK entry controls. They would need to check all the documents manually in France (for example), but it would allow them to only have security controls on departure. This form of control was used in places like Bratislava-Petrzalka, where travellers to Schengen went through both entry and exit controls within the station.

This would allow the use of different stations in France without requiring border control infrastructure.

 

[Meerkat]

If you are going to Stratford, you going to St Pancras (or very nearly). Why would you avoid the best connected station that is closest to the customer base?

I was assuming that there wasn’t capacity for them to deal with the passengers at St Pancras

 

[nwales58]

Not another one: Gemini Train

already being discussed in UK Railway main forum

 

[Krokodil]

Eurostar can only provide so many seats London to Paris and they also waste capacity with Premier and Plus classes, which will carry less passengers than all standard class crowdbusters.

Do the trains really waste capacity if the terminal couldn't process more passengers anyway? Sure, you could run a budget-spec TGV-M variant and have 1500+ seats but is there any point if the passengers are all stuck queuing for border control?

 

[AlastairFraser]

If you are going to Stratford, you going to St Pancras (or very nearly). Why would you avoid the best connected station that is closest to the customer base?

There is a certain amount of space that is already there at Stratford and the site is suitable for significant expansion. St Pancras is not.

Do the trains really waste capacity if the terminal couldn't process more passengers anyway? Sure, you could run a budget-spec TGV-M variant and have 1500+ seats but is there any point if the passengers are all stuck queuing for border control?

Well, it's debatable whether the boarding procedures could be tightened to increase passenger numbers anyway. You are advised by Eurostar to get there a long time before boarding starts, and then there are capacity issues in the waiting room.
Perhaps a boarding groups style system to split train loads into several groups and pass through security in slots would be the sensible solution to overcome this problem.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 24 Mar 2025 ==

Generally speaking, the cost of border control is actually coming down through the use of e-gates. If you look at what's happening in Spanish airports and at La Linea, they've often got as little as two officers on duty to cover a large amount of e-gates.

One alternative option is that any startup operator could use Ebbsfleet by having both Schengen entry/exit controls there as well as the UK entry controls. They would need to check all the documents manually in France (for example), but it would allow them to only have security controls on departure. This form of control was used in places like Bratislava-Petrzalka, where travellers to Schengen went through both entry and exit controls within the station.

This would allow the use of different stations in France without requiring border control infrastructure.

Your point about e-gates is valid. You'd probably need 5-10 e-gates at Ebbsfleet in each direction, controlled by one officer and the other officer on a manual inspection desk.

I don't think the Home Office would accept the border control at Ebbsfleet in both directions solution for more than one or two trainloads a day sadly. It would probably be a prime trafficker target soon after opening, with the trafficked person causing difficulties if asylum was refused at the border.

I agree with some other posters that we should just join Schengen to solve this issue, but I can't see England ever doing that at least - Scotland/NI possibly different.

 

[Bald Rick]

I agree with some other posters that we should just join Schengen to solve this issue, but I can't see England ever doing that at least - Scotland/NI possibly different.

How would that work with Scotland? Where would border control be and hiw would, say, LNER manage it?

There is a certain amount of space that is already there at Stratford and the site is suitable for significant expansion.

The space at Stratford intended for birder facilities and security is not big at all. Exapnding it means building over the tracks, and that is not cheap or easy. St Pancras is being expanded….

 

[AlastairFraser]

How would that work with Scotland? Where would border control be and hiw would, say, LNER manage it?

Oh, this is in the scenario of Scottish independence. Border control would have to be at Berwick most likely.

The space at Stratford intended for birder facilities and security is not big at all. Exapnding it means building over the tracks, and that is not cheap or easy. St Pancras is being expanded….

How many passengers could it process?

 

[Bald Rick]

Oh, this is in the scenario of Scottish independence. Border control would have to be at Berwick most likely.

How many passengers could it process?

The current facility at Stratford? Probably about 150.

 

[AlastairFraser]

The current facility at Stratford? Probably about 150.

150? With what sort of timescale?

 

[Bald Rick]

150? With what sort of timescale?

Per train.

 

[AlastairFraser]

Per train.

Very pessimistic.