Proposed Cork Luas

[thenorthern]

I know it's the Republic of Ireland but I saw this on RTE News, it's a couple of days old.

Preferred 18km route launched for new Cork Luas service​

An emerging preferred 18km route has been launched for a new Luas service in Cork, and a public consultation on the project launched this morning.

The proposed route will stretch from Ballincollig to Mahon Point.

People have been invited to give their say on the proposed route, with the public consultation open for eight weeks until 9 June.

The Luas Cork light rail service would have 25 stops along the route, including at Munster Technological University, Cork city centre, Kent Station and Blackrock.

A new public transport bridge connecting Kent Station to Kennedy Quay and new cycling infrastructure along much of the route are included in the plan.

The proposed route also includes a 1,000-vehicle park and ride facility in Ballincollig, as well as a hub in Mahon.

Preferred 18km route launched for new Cork Luas service

An emerging preferred 18km route has been launched for a new Luas service in Cork, and a public consultation on the project launched this morning.

www.rte.ie

While it's ambitious I do question if there will be enough of a market for it in Cork. Cork's population is only about 225,000. The Luas has worked well in Dublin but I can't see it working in Cork.

 

[berneyarms]

I know it's the Republic of Ireland but I saw this on RTE News, it's a couple of days old.



While it's ambitious I do question if there will be enough of a market for it in Cork. Cork's population is only about 225,000. The Luas has worked well in Dublin but I can't see it working in Cork.

Cork badly needs improved transport infrastructure and the corridors concerned are some of the busiest in the city.

Can I ask how familiar are you with the transport needs of Cork?

 

[DanNCL]

While it's ambitious I do question if there will be enough of a market for it in Cork. Cork's population is only about 225,000. The Luas has worked well in Dublin but I can't see it working in Cork.

Just because England/Scotland/Wales only have tramways in the largest cities (and even then not all of them ie not in Leeds), it doesn’t mean Ireland should do the same thing. Tramways work well in many European cities that are a similar size to Cork. And although I’ve not been to Cork, from what I know about it I struggle to see why a tramway wouldn’t work in Cork.

 

[TT-ONR-NRN]

I wonder if they'll finally accept card payments on this! I got stranded for two hours at the Blarney Stone because I didn't have Euros back in December, and the bus drivers were firm... very outdated.

 

[deltic]

Ghent in Belgium has a population not much bigger than Cork and has 4 tramlines,

 

[berneyarms]

I wonder if they'll finally accept card payments on this! I got stranded for two hours at the Blarney Stone because I didn't have Euros back in December, and the bus drivers were firm... very outdated.

LEAP card is the best and cheapest way of travelling around Ireland by local bus - fares are 30% cheaper using it across all PSO bus services.

They’re available online at www.leapcard.ie, ticket vending machines in Dublin & Cork, all post offices and a lot of shops nationwide.

You can top it up immediately via the LEAP Top-Up app on your phone or at any LEAP equipped shop or TVM.

You can also buy tickets at LEAP prices on the TFI Go app for all PSO bus services outside of Dublin City.

Contactless is unlikely to happen for a couple more years - there is a massive all operator (bus and rail) national ticketing system being implemented currently and that will incorporate contactless payments.

 

[PTR 444]

I know it's the Republic of Ireland but I saw this on RTE News, it's a couple of days old.



While it's ambitious I do question if there will be enough of a market for it in Cork. Cork's population is only about 225,000. The Luas has worked well in Dublin but I can't see it working in Cork.

I’d say 225,000 is a good enough population to support a tram system. The closest UK city that comes to this population figure is Portsmouth (223,305), and that additionally suffers from only having three roads and one railway line in and out of the city.

 

[zwk500]

While it's ambitious I do question if there will be enough of a market for it in Cork. Cork's population is only about 225,000. The Luas has worked well in Dublin but I can't see it working in Cork.

Bordeaux, which has a population of the city proper of 265,000, has 4 Tram lines, 130 stops, 77km route length and nearly 97 million annual ridership. It does have a wider metro area of 1m+ admittedly, but the Trams don't get too far outside the city.
The bigger indicator, IMO, is population density. Given trams make frequent stops all along the route, they need to stay in dense areas to be successful. Cork's population is more than 1,000 people/km2 and I see no reason why a sensible tram network can't be successful, given the existing presence of the commuter rail network as well, which is also soon to be expanded.

 

[thenorthern]

I’d say 225,000 is a good enough population to support a tram system. The closest UK city that comes to this population figure is Portsmouth (223,305), and that additionally suffers from only having three roads and one railway line in and out of the city.

I would say Cork is more similar to Aberdeen than Portsmouth as Portsmouth has a lot of people commute in from outside while Cork has much less people commuting in from surrounding areas.

With other comparing to European countries I suppose one issue is that in rail terms Ireland is not the easiest to build for given it's unique circumstances such as the 5' 3'' gauge, the relatively high platform height and with trams the left hand traffic. When Luas was designed it was built largely to British tramway standards which was a smart move.

 

[craigybagel]

I know it's the Republic of Ireland but I saw this on RTE News, it's a couple of days old.

While it's ambitious I do question if there will be enough of a market for it in Cork. Cork's population is only about 225,000. The Luas has worked well in Dublin but I can't see it working in Cork.

There will definitely be a big enough market for it. Not for a huge network, but for a single line this is the most obvious one.

Bordeaux, which has a population of the city proper of 265,000, has 4 Tram lines, 130 stops, 77km route length and nearly 97 million annual ridership. It does have a wider metro area of 1m+ admittedly, but the Trams don't get too far outside the city.
The bigger indicator, IMO, is population density. Given trams make frequent stops all along the route, they need to stay in dense areas to be successful. Cork's population is more than 1,000 people/km2 and I see no reason why a sensible tram network can't be successful, given the existing presence of the commuter rail network as well, which is also soon to be expanded.

The biggest challenge to a light (and even more so for a heavy) rail network in Cork is geography. It has lots of steep hills and narrow streets to the north and south. Even this east west corridor which avoids the worst of the above issues is still going to be a very challenging build, and it's hard to see much opportunity for expansion once complete.

It's still very much worthwhile though - it's one of very few corridors in the country outside of Dublin that would easily justify the expense of light rail.

I would say Cork is more similar to Aberdeen than Portsmouth as Portsmouth has a lot of people commute in from outside while Cork has much less people commuting in from surrounding areas.

Cork has dormitory towns which very much rely on the city and which see heavy commuting traffic. One of those, Ballincollig, will be served by this. In an ideal world Carrigaline (to which public transport links are notoriously poor despite its proximity the city) would be served as well, but as I said there are a lot of challenges with extending to the south.

 

[Sir Felix Pole]

Presumably it will be standard gauge like Dublin, which will preclude any potential tram-train operation. Kent station is annoyingly distant from the city-centre - tram-trains runnng on the heavy rail suburban network as well would be more convenient. Cadiz in Spain has broad gauge tram-trains. Good news nonetheless.

 

[thenorthern]

Presumably it will be standard gauge like Dublin, which will preclude any potential tram-train operation. Kent station is annoyingly distant from the city-centre - tram-trains runnng on the heavy rail suburban network as well would be more convenient. Cadiz in Spain has broad gauge tram-trains. Good news nonetheless.

I would imagine that any Cork system will almost certainly be standard gauge and built largely to British tramway standards in the same way the Luas is. Having tram-trains operate on the main line in Ireland would present too many difficulties. Not just the unique type of gauge but also the fact that Irish Rail still uses miles, the CAWS system and the high platform height. I agree though that having tram trains would be useful.

 

[Gloster]

Would it be that difficult to build a line east to Glounthane and then take over the Midleton (*) line; you could extend into the middle of the town. Or you could take over from Myrtle Hill eastwards and include the Cobh line: you might want a new route as far as Little Island in case there is any chance of freight returning. (I must admit I haven’t travel this area since the trains were worked by 001s.)

* - This took several goes to get right: bl**dy royal-obsessed spellcheck.

 

[craigybagel]

Presumably it will be standard gauge like Dublin, which will preclude any potential tram-train operation. Kent station is annoyingly distant from the city-centre - tram-trains runnng on the heavy rail suburban network as well would be more convenient. Cadiz in Spain has broad gauge tram-trains. Good news nonetheless.

I would imagine that any Cork system will almost certainly be standard gauge and built largely to British tramway standards in the same way the Luas is. Having tram-trains operate on the main line in Ireland would present too many difficulties. Not just the unique type of gauge but also the fact that Irish Rail still uses miles, the CAWS system and the high platform height. I agree though that having tram trains would be useful.

Would it be that difficult to build a line east to Glounthane and then take over the Midleton (*) line; you could extend into the middle of the town. Or you could take over from Myrtle Hill eastwards and include the Cobh line: you might want a new route as far as Little Island in case there is any chance of freight returning. (I must admit I haven’t travel this area since the trains were worked by 001s.)

* - This took several goes to get right: bl**dy royal-obsessed spellcheck.

Tram train is doable if they really wanted it. Dual gauge track, separate level platforms like at Rotherham. CAWS isn't in place east of Cork and in any case it's about to be phased out and replaced with a form of ETCS so no major issue there. It would probably be easier to just outright convert both the Cobh and Middleton lines to light rail, given there's nothing else currently using those lines, but that would preclude a heavy rail reopening to Youghal, or freight returning to Tivoli.

But given the investment going into upgrading the heavy rail network out of Cork right now, it seems the future is the far more simpler option of having that connect with a light rail system at Kent Station. And to be fair, with them opening up the access on the City side of the station the walk to town isn't all that far - it's comparable to the walks to the respective city centres from Dublin Connolly and Limerick Colbert. Light rail will make this even easier.

 

[thenorthern]

Tram train is doable if they really wanted it. Dual gauge track, separate level platforms like at Rotherham. CAWS isn't in place east of Cork and in any case it's about to be phased out and replaced with a form of ETCS so no major issue there. It would probably be easier to just outright convert both the Cobh and Middleton lines to light rail, given there's nothing else currently using those lines, but that would preclude a heavy rail reopening to Youghal, or freight returning to Tivoli.

But given the investment going into upgrading the heavy rail network out of Cork right now, it seems the future is the far more simpler option of having that connect with a light rail system at Kent Station. And to be fair, with them opening up the access on the City side of the station the walk to town isn't all that far - it's comparable to the walks to the respective city centres from Dublin Connolly and Limerick Colbert. Light rail will make this even easier.

It's certainly doable but the cost of having and Irish gauge tramway with tram trains that run on the main line would be far too expensive. As you say though converting the Cobh and Middleton lines to tram operation would be a better option though.

The Irish 5'3'' gauge is one of those things where it's only kept because that is what it was built as but overall it's not ideal.

 

[craigybagel]

It's certainly doable but the cost of having and Irish gauge tramway with tram trains that run on the main line would be far too expensive. As you say though converting the Cobh and Middleton lines to tram operation would be a better option though.

The Irish 5'3'' gauge is one of those things where it's only kept because that is what it was built as but overall it's not ideal.

As I said though, it wouldn't have to be an Irish gauge tramway. You could add a third rail at 4'8 for trams inside the 5'3 for heavy rail along the shared section. Far cheaper than bespoke broad gauge tram trains.

As annoying as the gauge is though, even if Ireland had transitioned to standard gauge I'm not sure it would have made a whole lot of difference in the grand scheme of things. The loading gauge, whilst still generous by British standards, wouldn't permit European off the shelf units, so it would always have needed something of a bespoke fleet. And by and large the fleet they do have is superior to it's British equivalents. But we're getting off topic here.

Cork Luas is very much needed, and I confidently predict it will be a great success, if it can overcome the many challenges to building a tramway in Cork. Sufficient demand is not one of those challenges

 

[AlastairFraser]

Cork Luas is very much needed, and I confidently predict it will be a great success, if it can overcome the many challenges to building a tramway in Cork. Sufficient demand is not one of those challenges

Indeed. Ballincollig - Mahon Point first?

 

[thejuggler]

Population of the city is of less importance than potential passenger base, which includes visitors and transient populations.

Geneva has a population of only 200,000, but trams, trolley bus and bus network is very extensive. Handy for 3m visitors a year.

 

[stuu]

As I said though, it wouldn't have to be an Irish gauge tramway. You could add a third rail at 4'8 for trams inside the 5'3 for heavy rail along the shared section. Far cheaper than bespoke broad gauge tram trains.

I would be amazed if that's true. Cadiz has 1676mm guage trams, there's other non-standard gauge trams around the world too

 

[craigybagel]

Indeed. Ballincollig - Mahon Point first?

Population of the city is of less importance than potential passenger base, which includes visitors and transient populations.

Geneva has a population of only 200,000, but trams, trolley bus and bus network is very extensive. Handy for 3m visitors a year.

The proposed route includes nearly all the big generators of traffic you can think of. The largest and nearest dormitory town, both universities, the largest hospital, the largest suburban shopping centre, the railway station. Some have suggested the line should start further west in Ballincollig to serve the massive Dell campus in Ovens and there's possibly some sense in that, but for a one line network it's pretty comprehensive.

There's not much of use for tourists - but there's not much of interest in the area that's outside of the city centre but close enough to be served by a tram anyway. Cobh is already served by train and Blarney is probably too small and too hilly to be served directly by a tram (there are plans to reopen the railway station in Blarney, but it'll be a long and hilly walk from the castle).

If I had a crayon in hand, it would be nice to see a north south line linking the Apple campus in Knocknaheeny with the city and out in the other direction to Carrigaline, but Cork's geography and narrow roads doesn't lend itself to such a line easily.

I would be amazed if that's true. Cadiz has 1676mm guage trams, there's other non-standard gauge trams around the world too

Fair point, apparently broad gauge tram train isn't as expensive as I thought. Either way though, the decision seems to be final that heavy and light rail be kept separate, and with the planned upgrade of the lines around Cork (including the doubling out to Midleton already taking place), that's not necessarily a bad thing.

 

[AlastairFraser]

If I had a crayon in hand, it would be nice to see a north south line linking the Apple campus in Knocknaheeny with the city and out in the other direction to Carrigaline, but Cork's geography and narrow roads doesn't lend itself to such a line easily.

I agree with you about the initial tram route. Perhaps a BRT route Blackpool - Kent Station - Cork city centre - Kinsale Road - Cork Airport - Carrigaline would be best for an initial north-south mass transit route, with provision for easy conversion to tram.

 

[Sir Felix Pole]

Can any of the once extensive network of lines (narrow and Irish gauge) around Cork be re-utilised for trams? Carrigaline did have a CB & P railway station, although perhaps the route into the city-centre was a bit indirect. Blarney had its own narrow gauge station too.

 

[craigybagel]

I agree with you about the initial tram route. Perhaps a BRT route Blackpool - Kent Station - Cork city centre - Kinsale Road - Cork Airport - Carrigaline would be best for an initial north-south mass transit route, with provision for easy conversion to tram.

Bus Connects plans to improve access for buses through the city including bus lanes and so on. A dedicated alignment for a proper full BRT system would however likely come across the same challenges, if you wanted to get anywhere near the population/business centres along the way. Plus the roads between Carrigaline and the airport are pretty poor as well, and it would be a rather long way around to travel.

Can any of the once extensive network of lines (narrow and Irish gauge) around Cork be re-utilised for trams? Carrigaline did have a CB & P railway station, although perhaps the route into the city-centre was a bit indirect. Blarney had its own narrow gauge station too.

The earliest plans showed a use of the old CB&P alignment from Mahon Point into town that's still in existence as a Greenway - but the new proposals use the parallel roads - presumably because the cuttings the Greenway goes through are too narrow for both a path and a light rail alignment. The Cork & Muskerry followed too much of an indirect alignment to be of much use, though it did run alongside the Western road which is planned to be served by the new line.

As far as Irish gauge goes, the old West Cork route into town was turned into a very busy (and useful) dual carriageway that ends close to the city centre. For most of it's route there is no space alongside to run a rail alignment.

 

[AlastairFraser]

Bus Connects plans to improve access for buses through the city including bus lanes and so on. A dedicated alignment for a proper full BRT system would however likely come across the same challenges, if you wanted to get anywhere near the population/business centres along the way. Plus the roads between Carrigaline and the airport are pretty poor as well, and it would be a rather long way around to travel.

Yes, I expect that there would have to be a new transit only road between Carrigaline and the Airport at least. Glad to hear they're doing something with bus lanes, to improve the airport and northern suburban links I think something more permanent will be needed (the Cork Commuter Rail upgrade project will help, of course.,)

 

[ainsworth74]

Re-opened for @Brooke to give us an update

 

[Brooke]

Following some local political pressure about timescales, the government commented this week that “construction could start during the current parliament”: https://www.irishexaminer.com/news/munster/arid-41764673.html.

That would mean construction starting by late 2029, helped by a more streamlined planning and appeals process than we’ve seen with the Dublin schemes.

 

[Ballyheigue]

It's a funny one really as Cork only has 225,000 residents, but when you add in all the visitors and people from surrounding areas as far out as the likes of Tralee, you soon see numbers swell. Traffic in Cork can be bad, so I'd say it could sustain a tram network provided it also caters for some kind of Park and Ride.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 28 Dec 2025 ==

I would say Cork is more similar to Aberdeen than Portsmouth as Portsmouth has a lot of people commute in from outside while Cork has much less people commuting in from surrounding areas.

With other comparing to European countries I suppose one issue is that in rail terms Ireland is not the easiest to build for given it's unique circumstances such as the 5' 3'' gauge, the relatively high platform height and with trams the left hand traffic. When Luas was designed it was built largely to British tramway standards which was a smart move.

I'd say you have more people than you'd think commuting from outside, they've enhanced the surrounding road network from the West, enhanced the rail service to Mallow/Cobh/Middleton and traffic in the city is getting worse. I've often heard of commuters coming as far out as Tralee by rail, bus and car to Cork as it's one of the nearest cities with proper employment opportunities. Surprisingly, Cork hospital is used by Kerry Hospital for a large number of enhanced health services for Kerry residents, the number of people who have to travel to is is staggering. Kerry has Munster Technical University campuses, but for a proper University, Kerry residents have to travel to either Cork or Limerick.

 

[craigybagel]

Following some local political pressure about timescales, the government commented this week that “construction could start during the current parliament”: https://www.irishexaminer.com/news/munster/arid-41764673.html.

That would mean construction starting by late 2029, helped by a more streamlined planning and appeals process than we’ve seen with the Dublin schemes.

"Could" being a very important word here. It's an infrastructure project in Ireland - please forgive my cynicism but I'm not going to get too excited just yet.

 

[berneyarms]

"Could" being a very important word here. It's an infrastructure project in Ireland - please forgive my cynicism but I'm not going to get too excited just yet.

Given that we have only had the first round of public consultation so far, I’d have to agree.

There will have to be a second round of public consultation in 2026 and then a railway order application to An Coimisiún Pleanála (the Planning Commission), probably in late 2027 at the earliest.

That would be very tight for construction to happen by 2029 even if funding were to be magically found for it.

 

[Austriantrain]

That would be very tight for construction to happen by 2029 even if funding were to be magically found for it.

Given the budgetary surplus Ireland has enjoyed over the past years, it is really hard to understand why funding could not be found (provided the benefit-cost-ratio is ok of course).