Proposals for future Merseyrail service pattern with Class 777s

[Bletchleyite]

Moderator note: split from https://www.railforums.co.uk/threads/merseyrail-class-777.153458/page-10

Unless exercising the option signals investment to complete the system, and turn the lower performing branches (in cash terms) into highly performing ones. It makes no sense to perpetually pay out subsidy when investment can reduce or eliminate the need for it.

Skem and Wigan could help with that massively - far more than any of the other extensions. It'd become the main route from Wigan to Liverpool. Even if slower than Northern, 4tph is a big sell.

They'd also pick up at least some of the not insignificant Skem <-> Wigan bus traffic.

 

[Camden]

Especially door to door, I expect that Preston and Wigan would be quite a bit faster via extensions

 

[modernrail]

Do forum members feel Merseyrail would ever introduce a peak express on the Southport route? It has often struck me that a peak Southport to Liverpool leaving just before the next stopper and stopping at Formby and maybe Waterloo or Crosby and Sandhills would be a very popular commuter service and draw more people out of their cars to produce genuine modal shift. Maybe it could be trialled using current stock once withdrawn?

 

[Camden]

No, as it would ruin the system. It doesn't have the infrastructure. If the new stock is faster anyway, where's the need. Higher frequency of the existing services, reliability of the services, cost, comfort of journey, ability to get to the station are pivotal to modal share. Speed only comes into it where you get extremes.

 

[Bletchleyite]

No, as it would ruin the system. It doesn't have the infrastructure. If the new stock is faster anyway, where's the need. Higher frequency of the existing services, reliability of the services, cost, comfort of journey, ability to get to the station are pivotal to modal share. Speed only comes into it where you get extremes.

Yeah, I'd stick to the present all-stations service, and indeed reinstate the dropped Capenhurst stops to keep it all simple (which the new stock should allow for).

The big upgrade which would be of value would be to go to 6tph rather than 4, ideally also on Sundays, with 3tph at quiet times. For the Chester line that would require a bit of a choice, though - all 6 to Chester and the Ellesmere Port line a shuttle (would probably require rebuilding the station at Hooton to use the island instead of the two side platforms as at present), or 10-20 minute gaps at Chester? Or even portion work - Hamburg's S-Bahn does that, with trains splitting at Ohlsdorf for the Airport and Poppenbuettel. You could probably also argue for installing a set of points just south of Maghull North and only running 3tph north of there, as it's rather quieter. (I've long been surprised that wasn't done at Maghull pre-North where there is a set of points for reversing).

 

[modernrail]

I just wonder if a proportion of Southport/Formby potential passengers are put off by the stopping service but would go for what they might see as a premium product. However, I would agree that modal shift is about overall shift rather than enticing a particular type of passenger out of their car. The faster journey times for the new stock do seem impressive.

 

[TheSel]

Many moons ago, Southport - Liverpool (Exchange in those days) DID have a semi-fast service, but I think I'm right in saying that the line was four-tracked between Exchange and Seaforth & Litherland, so overtaking was possible [happy to be corrected if anyone out there knows differently]. There was also an infrequent Southport - Lime Street (via Bootle Junction - Edge Lane Junction) DMU (ostensibly to connect into London trains) - which was limited stop between Southport and Bootle.

Nowadays, I can't see the benefits. You'd get too much flak from the passengers whose 'stops' were omitted in order to save no more than ten minutes for other, longer-distance passengers, and I suspect Merseytravel would be less than supportive of the idea.

That said, an increase in peak frequency on the Southport line would be a big improvement. Monday - Friday trains from Southport between, say, 0728 - 0828 usually have all seats taken by about Formby, even on a six-car 507/8 formation. 2 x 777 thus likely to be "full" by Ainsdale. The fifteen minute 'clock-face' frequency used to be augmented in the peaks with Southport - Liverpool Central 'shorts' until a few years ago, but no longer.

 

[Bletchleyite]

I just wonder if a proportion of Southport/Formby potential passengers are put off by the stopping service but would go for what they might see as a premium product. However, I would agree that modal shift is about overall shift rather than enticing a particular type of passenger out of their car. The faster journey times for the new stock do seem impressive.

Some Southport passengers might be, but not Formby, it's no further out than Ormskirk is, and having grown up living near the Ormskirk line you go to Liverpool by train - unless you're on a Lancashire free bus pass and have a load of spare time other options, including the car, just don't enter consideration. The mentality is quite similar to London, really.

It is slowish, but at 4tph it's extremely convenient. Unlike what you might get at a Manchester suburban station, there isn't "oh, we just missed the hourly train, best drive" - there's always one that's convenient.

 

[driver_m]

It would be nice if Merseytravel could afford the same benefits of Merseyrail to the rest of Merseyside before people atart demanding plans to have semi fasts on Southports, Chesters etc. Many parts of St Helens and Knowsley don’t have a 4 per hour service and at St Helens Junction has even suffered a downgrade in service. Still better than some parts granted, but it annoys me when we see plans for connections to Wrexham and Skem and Burscough seemingly put ahead of plans for a seriously neglected part of Merseyside. They should concentrate on finishing add what was started in. The 70s and connect up the city lines first. Especially if NPR enables full 4 tracking along the Chat Moss line or a new route entirely. (No doubt I’ll get slated for being ungrateful for the AC OLE but again, another 70s scheme that wasn’t followed through that eventually got done)

 

[hexagon789]

Do forum members feel Merseyrail would ever introduce a peak express on the Southport route? It has often struck me that a peak Southport to Liverpool leaving just before the next stopper and stopping at Formby and maybe Waterloo or Crosby and Sandhills would be a very popular commuter service and draw more people out of their cars to produce genuine modal shift. Maybe it could be trialled using current stock once withdrawn?

I think it's better off as an all stations metro service, what they can do is reduce journey times and increase frequencies. Personally I think that would be of greater benefit on the system.

 

[Meerkat]

For the Chester line that would require a bit of a choice, though - all 6 to Chester and the Ellesmere Port line a shuttle

Is Chester definitely still the most important route? It has the Lime Street Service now whereas Merseyrail is all Ellesmere Port has.

 

[4-SUB 4732]

The semi-fast service would achieve, at best, a 10 minute reduction in overall journey time from Southport. At peak time it could be a useful addition capacity wise (therefore could be considered), and a timetable I had modelled for a Sandhills Simsig did suggest all trains starting / terminating at Central could use the reverser.

The only thing that didn’t work was the quarter-hourly Southport ‘fast’ and ‘slow’ respectively then matching at the south end; e.g. the Southport ‘fast’ goes to Hunts Cross and forms a ‘slow’ back; the ‘slow’ goes to South Parkway and then returns as a ‘fast’.

It did however operate well and even with a nominal 140 second terminate at Central before entering the reverser, things still operated successfully. There was even a scope for recovering some delays.

Said timetable also included provision for up to a quarter-hourly ‘express’ from Chester to James Street. That also worked relatively nicely but could work as a half-hourly ‘express’ from Chester and a half-hourly ‘through’ from Wrexham via Bidston.