Proposals and ideas about Manchester area railway stations

[DPWH]

But of capacity would be worse than today.

Let's consider the hourly Wigan to Alderlwy Edge service as an example. Do you
A) Keep it as a Wigan-Alderley Edge service but have it service Victoria in one direction and Piccadilly in the other (so a half loop path in each direction), or
B) Operate two seperate Wigan-Manchester and Manchester-Alderley Edge services...which needs two complete loop paths, or twice as many a (A)?

A) I think would be best. E-W trains would generally run through Victoria, W-E trains through Picadilly; some would serve both.

I think it would have a "circle line" running anticlockwise on the innermost tracks, so that would give ways around the loop both ways.

 

[Chester1]

How many services could use Central?

None. This idea comes up occasionally due to nostalgia and it's a none starter. Central is the main convention center and makes a significant contribution to the Manchester economy. It would be far too big and would fragment Manchester services further. There are cheaper and more beneficial options.

 

[HSTEd]

To be honest buying up enough space to quad the Castlefield corridor is likely to be cheaper than rebuilding central.

Much of the Castlefield corridor has room for additional tracks without demolitions beyond those that are already scheduled.

 

[Shaw S Hunter]

Metrolink was chosen as Picc - Vic was unviable due to the cost of tunneling through Manchester's soft clay.

Tunnelling technology has moved on in the last 40 years. If a tunnel under Manchester was wanted it could be built; the cost factor is more about the likely depth of tunnel that would be needed and the resulting expense of providing access to the stations from the surface.

Stop mucking about and build a proper crossrail type tunnel from salford crescent area to longsight.
should have been done in the 1970's but instead they did the el-cheapo metrolink.
Of course, only electric trains allowed.

Metrolink wasn't chosen instead of Picc-Vic, it was more of a belated consolation prize. By the time the Picc-Vic scheme was dropped in 1977 Liverpool's Loop and Link scheme was nearly complete. The country's economic situation was rather poor at that point and a second expensive rail scheme in the north simply couldn't be justified . And it wasn't just a north-south thing: what became London's Jubilee Line initially went only as far as Charing Cross as the eastern part of the line couldn't be afforded either.

GMPTE was still determined to do something by way of a cross-Manchester link and consultants eventually came up with the light-rail scheme that became Metrolink but it was 1992 before the first phase came into service. History lesson over!

 

[PR1Berske]

Technology may have improved but soft clay is still soft clay!

 

[HSTEd]

Technology may have improved but soft clay is still soft clay!

These days they regularly tunnel in ground conditions that would have been considered completely untenable historically.

 

[47550]

Completely agree about the comments on Salford Central. So many people work in Spinningfields and the station should be expanded to make it accessible for people working there. Cutting out the 20 min walk from Victoria / 25 min from Piccadilly means that taking the train could be more appealing than driving - particularly for commuters from Warrington / Liverpool areas.

 

[edwin_m]

Tunnelling technology has moved on in the last 40 years. If a tunnel under Manchester was wanted it could be built; the cost factor is more about the likely depth of tunnel that would be needed and the resulting expense of providing access to the stations from the surface.

And this would be a lot cheaper if the fast trains were put in the tunnel with fewer stations or even none at all. The local trains would stay on the surface where they would also be more accessible. Even better if there was already a tunnel planned out to the Airport which had spare capacity for trains to use a connection towards Liverpool.

 

[Shaw S Hunter]

And this would be a lot cheaper if the fast trains were put in the tunnel with fewer stations or even none at all. The local trains would stay on the surface where they would also be more accessible. Even better if there was already a tunnel planned out to the Airport which had spare capacity for trains to use a connection towards Liverpool.

I wonder if you should have added an emoji to that. It wouldn't surprise me if some people don't get the reference...

 

[Chester1]

Completely agree about the comments on Salford Central. So many people work in Spinningfields and the station should be expanded to make it accessible for people working there. Cutting out the 20 min walk from Victoria / 25 min from Piccadilly means that taking the train could be more appealing than driving - particularly for commuters from Warrington / Liverpool areas.

How would you increase the number of services at Salford Central? The TPE services are the only ones that don't stop. The current platforms need improving and extending but additional platforms are dependent on work elsewhere to allow additional services. If Northern ran 2tph across the Ordsall Chord and 2tph Victoria-Liverpool then 3 additional platforms would be a good idea.

 

[47550]

How would you increase the number of services at Salford Central? The TPE services are the only ones that don't stop. The current platforms need improving and extending but additional platforms are dependent on work elsewhere to allow additional services. If Northern ran 2tph across the Ordsall Chord and 2tph Victoria-Liverpool then 3 additional platforms would be a good idea.

Yes that’s what I meant - build the extra platforms for a Liverpool services and services via the Ordall Chord.

 

[47550]

Second thought is to use Manchester Airport station as a park and ride. This would help to relieve congestion in the M56 and Princess Parkway into The city centre. Potentially also relieves some M60 and cross pennine traffic as well.

The road and rail infrastructure are already in place so all it would need is a dedicated multi story car park to be built with direct access to the station and a sensible charging regime to encourage people out of their cars without it being too attractive for people to leave their car there when flying out of the airport.

 

[edwin_m]

Second thought is to use Manchester Airport station as a park and ride. This would help to relieve congestion in the M56 and Princess Parkway into The city centre. Potentially also relieves some M60 and cross pennine traffic as well.

The road and rail infrastructure are already in place so all it would need is a dedicated multi story car park to be built with direct access to the station and a sensible charging regime to encourage people out of their cars without it being too attractive for people to leave their car there when flying out of the airport.

This is always the difficulty for parking near airports, and would be very difficult to enforce. Even if people had to have a rail ticket to at least the centre of Manchester to qualify for the lower rate, the difference between parking fees at suburban stations versus airports would make it worth people buying such a ticket and just not using it. Consequently the airport, which probably owns any potential site, would be fairly unwilling to co-operate. A similar but slightly less severe problem arises for parking at the nearby future HS2 station.

 

[47550]

This is always the difficulty for parking near airports, and would be very difficult to enforce. Even if people had to have a rail ticket to at least the centre of Manchester to qualify for the lower rate, the difference between parking fees at suburban stations versus airports would make it worth people buying such a ticket and just not using it. Consequently the airport, which probably owns any potential site, would be fairly unwilling to co-operate. A similar but slightly less severe problem arises for parking at the nearby future HS2 station.

Airport is owned by the councils so also a a vested interest in sorting traffic congestion. Charge a rate for parking for one day commensurate with other station car parks. If the car is left overnight then prohibitive charges kick in. I think there is also a suitable plot that is unused at the moment at the end of the sliproad.

 

[edwin_m]

Airport is owned by the councils so also a a vested interest in sorting traffic congestion. Charge a rate for parking for one day commensurate with other station car parks. If the car is left overnight then prohibitive charges kick in. I think there is also a suitable plot that is unused at the moment at the end of the sliproad.

That solves most of the problem but still benefits people flying out and back in a day.

 

[47550]

That solves most of the problem but still benefits people flying out and back in a day.

It does and they would be the lucky beneficiaries. I would have thought most people fly out for longer though so it wouldn’t hinder the Airports revenues much. Benefits would be great though and at a fairly low cost. There just needs the political will to do it and a mayor who can actually deliver improvements rather than campaign for them.

 

[LOL The Irony]

Second thought is to use Manchester Airport station as a park and ride. This would help to relieve congestion in the M56 and Princess Parkway into The city centre. Potentially also relieves some M60 and cross pennine traffic as well.

Well we best get digging those tunnels underneath the station to extend those platforms.

 

[6Gman]

Second thought is to use Manchester Airport station as a park and ride. This would help to relieve congestion in the M56 and Princess Parkway into The city centre. Potentially also relieves some M60 and cross pennine traffic as well.

The road and rail infrastructure are already in place so all it would need is a dedicated multi story car park to be built with direct access to the station and a sensible charging regime to encourage people out of their cars without it being too attractive for people to leave their car there when flying out of the airport.

What market would this be intended to serve?

 

[adamedwards]

Surely the answer to congestion on the M56 is to get people into their cars further out. So train every 30 mins on the Chester via Knutsford Line and from Chester via Warrington. It cannot make sense for the railway to encourage a motorway drive and then a short train journey? (One reason why there has never been a park and ride station at London Gateway services on the M1 which is right next to the Midland Main Line.) By 2033 we will have had 10 years of cars with speed limiters in Europe which will make car commuting even less fun than now. So rail commuting will then be even better.

 

[Greybeard33]

It does and they would be the lucky beneficiaries. I would have thought most people fly out for longer though so it wouldn’t hinder the Airports revenues much. Benefits would be great though and at a fairly low cost. There just needs the political will to do it and a mayor who can actually deliver improvements rather than campaign for them.

I think you are "flogging a dead horse" with this idea. Manchester Airport's Surface Access Strategy, which is endorsed by the Mayor and GMCA, targets a reduction in car journeys to the Airport and an increased modal share for public transport, in order to reduce road traffic congestion and carbon emissions. That is why drop-off charges have been introduced at the station (£3 for 5 minutes, the same as at the terminals) and why pick up at the station is prohibited.

The aim is that the station should be used only by airline passengers and Airport employees, and for interchange between rail, bus and Metrolink. No way will a park and ride car park be approved at the Airport.

 

[47550]

Surely the answer to congestion on the M56 is to get people into their cars further out. So train every 30 mins on the Chester via Knutsford Line and from Chester via Warrington. It cannot make sense for the railway to encourage a motorway drive and then a short train journey? (One reason why there has never been a park and ride station at London Gateway services on the M1 which is right next to the Midland Main Line.) By 2033 we will have had 10 years of cars with speed limiters in Europe which will make car commuting even less fun than now. So rail commuting will then be even better.

I agree it would be better to have a short drive to a station followed by a longer train journey. Unfortunately many parts of Cheshire are not blessed with great rail connections into Manchester and beyond. Even with a more frequent service, journey times are prohibitively long on the mid Cheshire line. P&R from Helsby may be feasible with an improved service as this could serve commuters from N Wales, Chester and the Wirral areas.

P&R is more evident on continental Europe - I’ve certainly used good connections from the motorways in Amsterdam and Nice. Key has been that the car park and station are close to the motorway junction and there is a frequent service to the city centre. For some reason we don’t seem to have embraced it in the same way in this country. We have stations in town centres but these often suffer from lack of parking and/or their own congestion.

Manchester Airport has the advantage of infrastructure being largely in place and so requires relatively little investment to put a scheme in place. Greybeard you may be sadly right in your ‘flogging a dead horse’ comment but the Airports strategy to reduce road journeys is all very well if there is a public transport alternative - but that is not the case for people west and south of the airport. Meanwhile where is the strategy to free up congestion on the M56 / Princess Parkway and get people out of their cars for journeys into Manchester and beyond.

 

[edwin_m]

It does and they would be the lucky beneficiaries. I would have thought most people fly out for longer though so it wouldn’t hinder the Airports revenues much. Benefits would be great though and at a fairly low cost. There just needs the political will to do it and a mayor who can actually deliver improvements rather than campaign for them.

Business people who catch the early flight to for a day trip to a meeting somewhere tend to use the most expensive car park close to the terminal, so are probably some of the main contributors to the airport operator's profits!

 

[sprunt]

If Salford station were to be in some way enlarged with an enhanced service, would it make sense to add a Metrolink stub to there along John Dalton Street and Bridge Street?

 

[LOL The Irony]

If Salford station were to be in some way enlarged with an enhanced service, would it make sense to add a Metrolink stub to there along John Dalton Street and Bridge Street?

Which one?

 

[sprunt]

Sorry, Central.

 

[randyrippley]

Is there any land left vacant to the west of Victoria where you could build a larger replacement station? I'm thinking of the sites of Exchange station and the two breweries

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

I don't know much about the system around Manchester mainly because Im not from the wrong side of the Pennines, but would it be an idea further to the previous suggestion of closing Dean's Gate, to reopen Manchester Central? I have previously thought that thanks to the Ordsall Chord that trains could pass through Victoria and terminate they're instead.

Why on earth try to take away the asset that is the well-situated and well-used Manchester Central (formerly G_Mex) facility that has hosted political party conferences, business and sports events, etc, solely in order to reawaken dreams of a long-closed terminal railway station?

Every so often, in a similar vein, ideas surface for the demolishing and relocating of the large and very well used events arena in the area of Manchester Victoria railway station at a cost of very many millions of pounds sterling, just to accommodate a couple of west-facing terminal bay platforms at that station. Other recent suggestions on certain websites, obviously made by people who have not visited central Manchester for many years, if ever, are "pie-in-the-sky" ideas concerning the former Manchester Exchange railway station that totally and utterly disregard all the new large development of that site area.

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

Second thought is to use Manchester Airport station as a park and ride. This would help to relieve congestion in the M56 and Princess Parkway into The city centre. Potentially also relieves some M60 and cross pennine traffic as well.

The road and rail infrastructure are already in place so all it would need is a dedicated multi story car park to be built with direct access to the station and a sensible charging regime to encourage people out of their cars without it being too attractive for people to leave their car there when flying out of the airport.

Do you not think if such an idea were possible, it would have happened years ago, as part of the ever-expanding peripheral car parks that already service Manchester Airport, charging similar parking fees commeasurate with those already applicable? Manchester Airport knows the value of income that car parking brings to those who operate such parking facilities.

You will, of course, be aware of the recently-introduced drop-off charges for just matters of a few minutes duration that have recently been imposed outside the Manchester Airport railway station.