Proposals and ideas about Manchester area railway stations

[PR1Berske]

Branched off the Platform 15/16 at Manchester Piccadilly thread (see - https://www.railforums.co.uk/threads/platform-15-and-16-project-at-manchester-piccadilly.152254 ) and with the quoted post below as an idea of where things got :

Interesting. If the platforms at Oxford Road are going to be extended west anyway, would it be all that difficult to install a new entrance at the west end, perhaps with a street-level concourse and cross-platform access through the viaduct ?

If the new expanded Oxford Road is going to replace Deansgate mainline, and eastbound trains coming from.the CLC will be crossing from the old central approach viaduct to the extended Oxford Road, how difficult would it be to slot a pedestrian deck onto the bridge carrying this track over Whitworth Street, the continuing it to a relocated Deansgate Metrolink stop ?

And to what extent is all this going to be banjaxed by the new building going up on the corner of Whitworth and Albion Streets ?

Some ideas in the thread recently have reacted to the very real possibility that Platforms 15/16 (a much delayed project) will never happen. As a result, things have moved on to what can be done in the Manchester central area, including, but not restricted to:

a) Refurb of, and rejig of the track layout around, Manchester Oxford Road
b) Whether extending the platforms at Oxford Road could infringe upon, or even threaten closure of, Deansgate
c) Whether closing Deansgate would be a good idea anyway given how much of a logjam it is reported to be
d) Whether the Ordsall Curve has helped or hindered Manchester's rail "flow"
e) The construction of an interchange-style station at Cornbrook

I was not much in favour of P15/16 at Piccadilly until the opening of Ordsall Curve made it more clear that something had to be done to mitigate the increased traffic flow through Oxford Road and Piccadilly itself. Now the window of opportunity is closing, what possible alternative options could be available are now being discussed, and I thought it was appropriate to open a tangent thread at this point.

 

[LOL The Irony]

Yes. Close Deansgate and build an interchange at Cornbrook or a walkway to Oxford Road.

I was not much in favour of P15/16 at Piccadilly until the opening of Ordsall Curve made it more clear that something had to be done to mitigate the increased traffic flow through Oxford Road and Piccadilly itself.

They should have opened at the same time.

 

[Bucephalus]

In terms of both structural soundness and capacity, how many decades of life are left in the Manchester Piccadilly - deansgate viaduct anyway?

For the super long term e.g., 2050 should we be thinking of a different alignment through Manchester to compliment / continue on from hs2?

 

[Halifaxlad]

I don't know much about the system around Manchester mainly because Im not from the wrong side of the Pennines, but would it be an idea further to the previous suggestion of closing Dean's Gate, to reopen Manchester Central? I have previously thought that thanks to the Ordsall Chord that trains could pass through Victoria and terminate they're instead.

 

[30907]

I don't know much about the system around Manchester mainly because Im not from the wrong side of the Pennines, but would it be an idea further to the previous suggestion of closing Dean's Gate, to reopen Manchester Central? I have previously thought that thanks to the Ordsall Chord that trains could pass through Victoria and terminate they're instead.

The difference in levels would make it a major engineering feat. However, it might be possible to reopen it for Liverpool via Warrington traffic with significantly disruptive (but probably cheaper) alterations to Metrolink.

 

[geoffk]

Salford Central gives a very bad impression of rail travel in the Manchester area. Although upgraded at street level, the station presents a poor image at platform level, with platforms of substandard height and a general air of neglect, with buddleia plants growing out of the walls and subway. Two (or is it three) new platforms were supposed to have been built as part of the Ordsall Chord project, allowing trains bound for Oxford Road or Eccles to call there, but there has been no progress on this. This is a central area station convenient for the Spinningfields area of Manchester as well as Salford, which could attract many more users.

Anyone know what is happening and when?

 

[markymark2000]

First thing I would be doing is build a new platform at Salford Crescent for trains from Bolton. I would then redo the junction just outside Salford Crescent so that there were 2 tracks southbound (1 for Piccadilly and the other for Victoria) with scissor points between them. The new platform would serve 8 trains per hour. Of which, 4 would be going to MCV so would be able to go through seamlessly. With the Castlefield pinch point, trains to Piccadilly can get delayed. This working means that there are 2 platforms so you can hold a train in one platform if something happens while trains towards Victoria can still continue thus delaying less trains.

While again not a station thing, you could introduce a 3rd track from the Irwell Bridge to the Oldfield Road bridge. This then avoids the points to/from Victoria and also the points towards Salford Crescent. It you put an extra set of signals just before the merge at Oldfield Bridge then the trains being slowed down to turn off towards Salford Crescent will not slow down trains from Piccadilly towards Newton Le Willows (While not a major thing, it will certainly help speed up some journeys)

At Piccadilly, I would try to get Calling On enabled on P13/14. There are centre signals on these platforms but they don't signal trains into the B platforms. If they did, the train behind would be close to the B platform while the train infront was loading. Then when loading was complete, the train infront leaves and the one behind continues to the normal stopping point. This wouldn't work with all trains but certainly I think it works for upto 4 car trains. Perhaps also try to up the speed limit between Picc and Oxford Road. Even just get them there 30 seconds quicker.

Where possible, I would vastly reduce the length of signalling blocks around Piccadilly, Oxford Road and the Ordsall Triangle area. Think of the size of signalling blocks at London Victoria compared to Piccadilly.

 

[Tomnick]

At Piccadilly, I would try to get Calling On enabled on P13/14. There are centre signals on these platforms but they don't signal trains into the B platforms. If they did, the train behind would be close to the B platform while the train infront was loading. Then when loading was complete, the train infront leaves and the one behind continues to the normal stopping point. This wouldn't work with all trains but certainly I think it works for upto 4 car trains. Perhaps also try to up the speed limit between Picc and Oxford Road. Even just get them there 30 seconds quicker.

Where possible, I would vastly reduce signalling blocks around Piccadilly, Oxford Road and the Ordsall Triangle area. Think of the size of signalling blocks at London Victoria compared to Piccadilly.

The purpose of the existing mid-platform signals is to allow a second train to start moving towards the platform very shortly after the first train starts to leave - having trains routinely stopped at the ‘wrong’ end of the platform, even with the intention that they don’t release doors, would be far from ideal with folk probably starting to traipse down and attempting to board regardless. It might help if the protecting signals in rear of the platforms were a little bit closer though.

It’s already 35mph each way between Picc and Oxford Road, and you barely achieve that in either direction before having to brake for the 20mph through the tight curves at the other end, so there’s not much to be saved there really.

 

[HSTEd]

Wouldn't you still get some benefits if the trains stuck at the B end of the platform just started loading immediately on coming to a stop?

You could potentially have loading commence before the previous train has left the platform.
Obviously the second train blocks the third train but its still a significant improvement over what we have now.

 

[Greybeard33]

Wouldn't you still get some benefits if the trains stuck at the B end of the platform just started loading immediately on coming to a stop?

You could potentially have loading commence before the previous train has left the platform.
Obviously the second train blocks the third train but its still a significant improvement over what we have now.

This suggestion has been done to death on previous threads. The platforms are too narrow and too crowded. The system only (just about) works by effectively segregating 13 and 14 at opposite ends of the island, and employing a bevy of hi-vis "shouters" to corral the passengers. 13B is used to double the width of 14A and vice versa.

If alighting passengers on 13B had to fight their way through the hordes waiting on 14A, the increased dwell times would more than negate any benefit from opening the doors earlier. And there would be a serious risk of PTI accidents at busy times.

 

[markymark2000]

The purpose of the existing mid-platform signals is to allow a second train to start moving towards the platform very shortly after the first train starts to leave - having trains routinely stopped at the ‘wrong’ end of the platform, even with the intention that they don’t release doors, would be far from ideal with folk probably starting to traipse down and attempting to board regardless. It might help if the protecting signals in rear of the platforms were a little bit closer though.

It’s already 35mph each way between Picc and Oxford Road, and you barely achieve that in either direction before having to brake for the 20mph through the tight curves at the other end, so there’s not much to be saved there really.

I would not recommend boarding on the 'B' platforms but more allowing trains to move in earlier so as soon as the 'A' platform block is clear, the train is close enough so that it can just continue in at 15mph.
Make it so the train comes in so slowly that when it is hits the 'B' platform, the train in the 'A' platform is almost out so then it never stops in the 'B' platform but is close enough for almost constant boarding and no gap.

Boarding and alighting on the 'B' platforms is only done really early. I believe a TFW Llandudno services boards on platform 13B or at least did at around 6-7am I think it was. Any time when it is even slightly busy, it would cause mayhem and wouldn't be safe.

I didn't think it was 35 between Picc and Oxford Road. Probably because as you say, it is barely achieved due to the lower speed limit at either end.

 

[Bevan Price]

Wouldn't you still get some benefits if the trains stuck at the B end of the platform just started loading immediately on coming to a stop?

You could potentially have loading commence before the previous train has left the platform.
Obviously the second train blocks the third train but its still a significant improvement over what we have now.

You would only gain time if the change was preannounced. Several times (in the past) I have had to move from Platform 14A to 14B, in a last minute "platform change", and it takes so long for everyone to move along the platform that you might as well wait until Platform 14A is available.

 

[mmh]

Isn't the real solution to stop pretending that 2 car trains are all that's needed?

I don't remember parts of pre-rebuild London Bridge being much wider (large sections of the new platforms are narrower!) but while it could be unpleasant there weren't constant tales of danger about it.

What was different? The length of the trains.

 

[Chester1]

Salford Central gives a very bad impression of rail travel in the Manchester area. Although upgraded at street level, the station presents a poor image at platform level, with platforms of substandard height and a general air of neglect, with buddleia plants growing out of the walls and subway. Two (or is it three) new platforms were supposed to have been built as part of the Ordsall Chord project, allowing trains bound for Oxford Road or Eccles to call there, but there has been no progress on this. This is a central area station convenient for the Spinningfields area of Manchester as well as Salford, which could attract many more users.

Anyone know what is happening and when?

Its on the backburner because the track and signalling layout for the Ordsall Chord limits platform lengths to about 100m. The platforms could be extended eastwards instead but it would more than double the cost of the original plan. There are currently no regular Northern services that pass through the station without calling. When the proposed additional platforms for Liverpool and chord services were proposed the Chat Moss stopper went to Victoria and Burnley services were due to be extended to Manchester Airport. This is still proposed but its hard to see how sufficient platform capacity could be found. The platforms should be smartened up though. Its odd to spend a lot of money on the entrance and then leave the platforms a mess.

Isn't the real solution to stop pretending that 2 car trains are all that's needed?

I don't remember parts of pre-rebuild London Bridge being much wider (large sections of the new platforms are narrower!) but while it could be unpleasant there weren't constant tales of danger about it.

What was different? The length of the trains.

Its not all that is needed but it would certainly help regards crowd management. There is a wider problem regarding congestion and unreliability. If the rumours that Northern will swap 319s for 323s then running double sets through Piccadilly would soak up passengers and reduce dwell times.

 

[_toommm_]

Boarding and alighting on the 'B' platforms is only done really early. I believe a TFW Llandudno services boards on platform 13B or at least did at around 6-7am I think it was. Any time when it is even slightly busy, it would cause mayhem and wouldn't be safe.

07:50 Picc to Holyhead departs 13B, while the 07:50 service to the Airport (from York) departs 14B.

 

[DPWH]

Well my crazy speculative idea would be to connect up Piccadilly and Victoria, so that railway lines form a loop around Manchester/Salford city centre. I would then make trains only go round clockwise, in other words run it like a roundabout. That would I hope keep everything moving like a roundabout because conflicts would be avoided.

 

[LOL The Irony]

Well my crazy speculative idea would be to connect up Piccadilly and Victoria, so that railway lines form a loop around Manchester/Salford city centre. I would then make trains only go round clockwise, in other words run it like a roundabout. That would I hope keep everything moving like a roundabout because conflicts would be avoided.

So you're proposing building a loop line around Manchester and turning it into a 1 way system? Not surprised you called it crazy.

 

[Halifaxlad]

How about reopening Manchester Central?

Then you would have a decent sized station to terminate services from West.

Allowing those on the corridor to be those you really want to go through Manchester.

Sorry if it's already been mentioned.

 

[Jorge Da Silva]

How about reopening Manchester Central?

Then you would have a decent sized station to terminate services from West.

Allowing those on the corridor to be those you really want to go through Manchester.

Sorry if it's already been mentioned.

Hasn't Metrolink blocked any possibility of accessing the station?

 

[LOL The Irony]

Hasn't Metrolink blocked any possibility of accessing the station?

It has.

 

[Halifaxlad]

I do remember having a look a while ago, just had a quick recap of what would be required, in the immediate vicinity of Man Central if you could widen the viaduct adjacent to Metro link, then the only problem would be to make the Metro link dive under/fly over the railway line further West. As they're is still a disused double track formation that flies over Metro link just outside the station.

 

[Ianno87]

Well my crazy speculative idea would be to connect up Piccadilly and Victoria, so that railway lines form a loop around Manchester/Salford city centre. I would then make trains only go round clockwise, in other words run it like a roundabout. That would I hope keep everything moving like a roundabout because conflicts would be avoided.

But of capacity would be worse than today.

Let's consider the hourly Wigan to Alderlwy Edge service as an example. Do you
A) Keep it as a Wigan-Alderley Edge service but have it service Victoria in one direction and Piccadilly in the other (so a half loop path in each direction), or
B) Operate two seperate Wigan-Manchester and Manchester-Alderley Edge services...which needs two complete loop paths, or twice as many a (A)?

 

[Jorge Da Silva]

I do remember having a look a while ago, just had a quick recap of what would be required, in the immediate vicinity of Man Central if you could widen the viaduct adjacent to Metro link, then the only problem would be to make the Metro link dive under/fly over the railway line further West. As they're is still a disused double track formation that flies over Metro link just outside the station.

How many services could use Central?

 

[adamedwards]

Please note that the Central building is now a conference centre, so any new station would end up a long way from where people need to be in the city centre. However, reusing the bridge with a new connection into the current line between Deansgate and Oxford Road might help reduce conflicts at the junction. It would probably not be ok for Trafford Park freight, but that should go west to the main line rather than through Oxford Ed.

 

[Ken H]

Stop mucking about and build a proper crossrail type tunnel from salford crescent area to longsight.
should have been done in the 1970's but instead they did the el-cheapo metrolink.
Of course, only electric trains allowed.

 

[LOL The Irony]

should have been done in the 1970's but instead they did the el-cheapo metrolink.

Metrolink was chosen as Picc - Vic was unviable due to the cost of tunneling through Manchester's soft clay.

 

[Ken H]

Metrolink was chosen as Picc - Vic was unviable due to the cost of tunneling through Manchester's soft clay.

thanks. didnt know about geological difficulties, just knew the cost was considered too much.

 

[randyrippley]

Well my crazy speculative idea would be to connect up Piccadilly and Victoria, so that railway lines for(m a loop around Manchester/Salford city centre. I would then make trains only go round clockwise, in other words run it like a roundabout. That would I hope keep everything moving like a roundabout because conflicts would be avoided.

That was actually planned for the Manchester Commonwealth games (with trains running both ways round the circle) but abandoned when it was realised it would take too long to implement. Airport - Piccadilly - Ordsall Curve (or an earlier version of it) - Victoria - Piccadilly (terminate / reverse) via reinstated curves to the east of the city. I think new stations were planned near Sports City and elsewhere

 

[Halifaxlad]

Please note that the Central building is now a conference centre, so any new station would end up a long way from where people need to be in the city centre. However, reusing the bridge with a new connection into the current line between Deansgate and Oxford Road might help reduce conflicts at the junction. It would probably not be ok for Trafford Park freight, but that should go west to the main line rather than through Oxford Ed.

I am already aware of this. Personally can't see it happening but wanted to gauge thoughts on a terminus to the West of Picadilly, as from my opinion a number of paths are taken up by services that don't necessarily need paths through Manchester but do so because theyre isn't anywhere near Man Pic to terminate them.

 

[Greybeard33]

I am already aware of this. Personally can't see it happening but wanted to gauge thoughts on a terminus to the West of Picadilly, as from my opinion a number of paths are taken up by services that don't necessarily need paths through Manchester but do so because theyre isn't anywhere near Man Pic to terminate them.

Bear in mind that, even if you moved Metrolink out of the way, Manchester Central could only connect to the CLC line to Liverpool via Warrington Central. The alignment and height of the station rule out a connection to the Chat Moss line towards Eccles or to the Windsor Link to Salford Crescent. Of the current 4tph on the CLC line, one is the Liverpool to Sheffield/Nottingham/Norwich semi-fast and another the Liverpool to Manchester Airport semi-fast. These both run through Piccadilly. The other 2tph are Liverpool to Manchester stoppers, which currently terminate at Oxford Road.

Back in its heyday, Central also had services to Chester Northgate via Altrincham and to London St Pancras via Chorlton and the now-closed Midland Main Line to Derby via Millers Dale. The Manchester ends of these lines are now the Metrolink Altrincham and East Didsbury lines.