Proposal to convert the Abbey Line to a busway

[BenW390Fan]

I feel it'd be a great idea as the bus would be able to go much closer to people's houses meaning it would attract more people. If you still want to ride the 319's like me (I live in Liverpool where there's loads anyway lol), there's always the Euston - Milton Keynes services.

 

[Bald Rick]

There would be no hesitation if it was a road widening scheme.

It’s exactly the same process.

 

[A0]

I feel it'd be a great idea as the bus would be able to go much closer to people's houses meaning it would attract more people. If you still want to ride the 319's like me (I live in Liverpool where there's loads anyway lol), there's always the Euston - Milton Keynes services.

The Abbey won't be 319s for long - they're only a temporary solution for LNW anyway. But the Abbey does raise an interesting question in whether it is a good use for a 100 mph 4 car EMU to be shuttling back and forth for 8 miles at less than half capacity most of the day. Which does bring us back to the "best" solution for the Abbey line in the medium term.

Much as I can see the comparisons with Dunstable I'm not convinced on the busway argument - Luton and Dunstable are effectively one long 'conurbation' so a bus link with regular stops makes alot of sense unlike Watford - St Albans where there is quite a gap between them.

Would a tram be better? Possibly, but then you've got the challenge of what to do with it at each end. St Albans isn't really suitable for on-road running for various reasons. Watford is perhaps more viable for that but it still prompts the question of where it should go to.

In some ways - if space allowed - the "best" solution would be to branch off north of Park Street and join the MML at Napsbury - but that would need ideally a new 'bi-di' line on the west side of the MML to terminate in a bay on the west side of St Albans City - but that's alot of work for probably no benefit. So ultimately it's probably best left as is.

 

[BenW390Fan]

The Abbey won't be 319s for long - they're only a temporary solution for LNW anyway. But the Abbey does raise an interesting question in whether it is a good use for a 100 mph 4 car EMU to be shuttling back and forth for 8 miles at less than half capacity most of the day. Which does bring us back to the "best" solution for the Abbey line in the medium term.

Much as I can see the comparisons with Dunstable I'm not convinced on the busway argument - Luton and Dunstable are effectively one long 'conurbation' so a bus link with regular stops makes alot of sense unlike Watford - St Albans where there is quite a gap between them.

Would a tram be better? Possibly, but then you've got the challenge of what to do with it at each end. St Albans isn't really suitable for on-road running for various reasons. Watford is perhaps more viable for that but it still prompts the question of where it should go to.

In some ways - if space allowed - the "best" solution would be to branch off north of Park Street and join the MML at Napsbury - but that would need ideally a new 'bi-di' line on the west side of the MML to terminate in a bay on the west side of St Albans City - but that's alot of work for probably no benefit. So ultimately it's probably best left as is.

Ah, I thought they were permanent until they get new units in the year 3089 lol. But the tram idea seems quite good, but again, you may aswell just have a train as it'd be operating pretty much the exact same route but with slightly faster acceleration. Guided busways can be just as fast depending on which bus you pick. As I said, the buses would be able to go right into the towns and then onto the busway, into the other towns, back onto the busway, towns, then onto Watford. I haven't been to either of those towns / cities but no doubt Watford will have a bus station relatively close to the train station, I assume anyway. It could terminate there and have some sort of turnaround somewhere in St Albans or something.

 

[ChiefPlanner]

The Abbey won't be 319s for long - they're only a temporary solution for LNW anyway. But the Abbey does raise an interesting question in whether it is a good use for a 100 mph 4 car EMU to be shuttling back and forth for 8 miles at less than half capacity most of the day. Which does bring us back to the "best" solution for the Abbey line in the medium term.

Much as I can see the comparisons with Dunstable I'm not convinced on the busway argument - Luton and Dunstable are effectively one long 'conurbation' so a bus link with regular stops makes alot of sense unlike Watford - St Albans where there is quite a gap between them.

Would a tram be better? Possibly, but then you've got the challenge of what to do with it at each end. St Albans isn't really suitable for on-road running for various reasons. Watford is perhaps more viable for that but it still prompts the question of where it should go to.

In some ways - if space allowed - the "best" solution would be to branch off north of Park Street and join the MML at Napsbury - but that would need ideally a new 'bi-di' line on the west side of the MML to terminate in a bay on the west side of St Albans City - but that's alot of work for probably no benefit. So ultimately it's probably best left as is.

This argument goes round and round (and usually ends up as "maintain the status quo" , as there is realistically zero funding for anything substantial)

But the best "do something" would be the passing loop , dare I mention DOO - but with proper revenue collection and Oysterisation , and a search for something less over-kill on the rolling stock side - maybe a hard search for through the 313 pool for the best units and give them a huge overhaul and refurbishment , or something else in the AC pool - (plenty of options from unwanted 321's to 360's)

How the line was saved in 1966 is a good read in the Kew Archives - staff were reduced from over 30 to basically train crew the local bus operators at the time could not cover the work and an improved service to connect with the shiny new WC electrification , actually increased patronage. The basic station at Garston cost a few hundred pounds ( repeat - hundreds of pounds)

 

[BenW390Fan]

This argument goes round and round (and usually ends up as "maintain the status quo" , as there is realistically zero funding for anything substantial)

But the best "do something" would be the passing loop , dare I mention DOO - but with proper revenue collection and Oysterisation , and a search for something less over-kill on the rolling stock side - maybe a hard search for through the 313 pool for the best units and give them a huge overhaul and refurbishment , or something else in the AC pool - (plenty of options from unwanted 321's to 360's)

How the line was saved in 1966 is a good read in the Kew Archives - staff were reduced from over 30 to basically train crew the local bus operators at the time could not cover the work and an improved service to connect with the shiny new WC electrification , actually increased patronage. The basic station at Garston cost a few hundred pounds ( repeat - hundreds of pounds)

360's would go well on this line, I've found that Desiro's seem to have better acceleration. They seem to operate on a couple shuttles over in the Anglian way, so they would fit well here.

 

[Bletchleyite]

They could just keep 3 x 319s. It's not like they won't have another microfleet (230s) just a bit further up the WCML. Or maybe get 3 x 323 if they're going in the bin? There is no shortage at all of spare EMUs of various types.

 

[ChiefPlanner]

Ah, I thought they were permanent until they get new units in the year 3089 lol. But the tram idea seems quite good, but again, you may aswell just have a train as it'd be operating pretty much the exact same route but with slightly faster acceleration. Guided busways can be just as fast depending on which bus you pick. As I said, the buses would be able to go right into the towns and then onto the busway, into the other towns, back onto the busway, towns, then onto Watford. I haven't been to either of those towns / cities but no doubt Watford will have a bus station relatively close to the train station, I assume anyway. It could terminate there and have some sort of turnaround somewhere in St Albans or something.

You need to have a look around sometime , it is an interesting line and of course St Albans has many attractions.

Buses are fine off peak in this area , but the last mile into Watford and SAC are an absolute killer , - Watford has been encircled by a terrible ring-road which acts as a Berlin Wall for pedestrians and the approaches from Garston are log-jammed , SAC has the previously mentioned medieval street pattern and IMHO the worst driving standards in the UK. An awful combination.(especilally this am at 0745 when I did 2 related work journeys for family members in this dire weather)

The bus "station" at Watford Junction does exist , but is a disgrace with minimal facilities and a standard of cleanliness that defies description , SAC though does have a decent enough interchange in front of the station.

So while the solum of an Abbey line busway - is maybe do-able , (thinking of bridges and especially the one over the M25 !) , the lack of access to the commercial and working areas remains a complete disincentive. Walking is usually the best option for "Local" journeys , - though my detailed knowledge of the line (having managed it operationally for some years) , indicates that the Watford end - unsurprisingly - has the higher transfer rate to the rail system.

The Watford station area has considerable development (non retail) going on - apart from hotels and £300,000 affordable flats , more office space. Road congestion is not going to get better.

 

[ChiefPlanner]

They could just keep 3 x 319s. It's not like they won't have another microfleet (230s) just a bit further up the WCML. Or maybe get 3 x 323 if they're going in the bin? There is no shortage at all of spare EMUs of various types.

Poor reliability , endemic door faults I am told by traincrew -

360's would be better , - much newer and of course "related" to those maintained at Northampton

 

[BenW390Fan]

You need to have a look around sometime , it is an interesting line and of course St Albans has many attractions.

Buses are fine off peak in this area , but the last mile into Watford and SAC are an absolute killer , - Watford has been encircled by a terrible ring-road which acts as a Berlin Wall for pedestrians and the approaches from Garston are log-jammed , SAC has the previously mentioned medieval street pattern and IMHO the worst driving standards in the UK. An awful combination.(especilally this am at 0745 when I did 2 related work journeys for family members in this dire weather)

The bus "station" at Watford Junction does exist , but is a disgrace with minimal facilities and a standard of cleanliness that defies description , SAC though does have a decent enough interchange in front of the station.

So while the solum of an Abbey line busway - is maybe do-able , (thinking of bridges and especially the one over the M25 !) , the lack of access to the commercial and working areas remains a complete disincentive. Walking is usually the best option for "Local" journeys , - though my detailed knowledge of the line (having managed it operationally for some years) , indicates that the Watford end - unsurprisingly - has the higher transfer rate to the rail system.

The Watford station area has considerable development (non retail) going on - apart from hotels and £300,000 affordable flats , more office space. Road congestion is not going to get better.

Poor reliability , endemic door faults I am told by traincrew -

360's would be better , - much newer and of course "related" to those maintained at Northampton

That brings us back to the "it probably won't work" discussion then. It's probably best to stick with a rail service but maybe swap traction and possibly extend it to bring more people. Watford has loads of connection but I feel that extending it past St Albans to somewhere else further down could bring more passengers and then attract people to the towns and such on the existing section of the line, if that makes sense.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Poor reliability , endemic door faults I am told by traincrew -

360's would be better , - much newer and of course "related" to those maintained at Northampton

Why not just use 350s then? They are the same thing (other than the gangway).

 

[BenW390Fan]

Is it that much of a busy lines? I've just realised that we're going on about 4 car trains here which would be overkill if not needed.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Is it that much of a busy lines? I've just realised that we're going on about 4 car trains here which would be overkill if not needed.

There aren't many shorter EMUs about to use. In particular there are no 2-car ones.

 

[ChiefPlanner]

Is it that much of a busy lines? I've just realised that we're going on about 4 car trains here which would be overkill if not needed.

About a 1000 passengers a day (with plenty of free riding) , the ideal train length is a 3 car. Ideally with good bike storage.

 

[John Webb]

Is it that much of a busy lines? I've just realised that we're going on about 4 car trains here which would be overkill if not needed.

I suspect the lack of staff at stations and checks on trains means that there are more people using the service than get officially recorded through ticket sales. I too would go for the passing loop at Bricket Wood - much cheaper than a wholesale conversion of the line into a Busway - and a regular 30min service would attract more custom, particularly in the rush hours.

 

[BenW390Fan]

There aren't many shorter EMUs about to use. In particular there are no 2-car ones.

Thought so, but as ChiefPlanner said, 3 car ones would be ideal, so 323's would be good. They've got good acceleration too.

About a 1000 passengers a day (with plenty of free riding) , the ideal train length is a 3 car. Ideally with good bike storage.

That's more than I expected, wow!

I suspect the lack of staff at stations and checks on trains means that there are more people using the service than get officially recorded through ticket sales. I too would go for the passing loop at Bricket Wood - much cheaper than a wholesale conversion of the line into a Busway - and a regular 30min service would attract more custom, particularly in the rush hours.

Are there not guards on the trains that check the tickets? Mind you, he couldn't check the whole train in the time it takes to get from one station to the other.

 

[ChiefPlanner]

I suspect the lack of staff at stations and checks on trains means that there are more people using the service than get officially recorded through ticket sales. I too would go for the passing loop at Bricket Wood - much cheaper than a wholesale conversion of the line into a Busway - and a regular 30min service would attract more custom, particularly in the rush hours.

Going to end this now - but there is a reasonable ticket checking in the morning , and effectively nil later on in the day (unlike in my day !) , as WFJ is Oysterised , some folk try and evade paying on the train if going to London and swipe in the Junction. So the branch revenue is under-recorded by this and the "free" local rides on the route. Hence DOO would reduce this with revenue staff.

 

[Verulamius]

I use the Abbey Line once a week to get to Watford to work. I would estimate that over 2/3rds of the traffic is heading for Watford offices, colleges etc. Less than 1/3 is going to connecting trains. The connecting traffic is mainly from Watford North or Garston.

 

[PeterC]

I need to drive into Watford in the morning peak a couple of times a year and the town is only just short of being gridlocked on most occasions. That really is the killer for any busway.

Last time I then took an off peak train up to St Albans, just because I had never ridden the line before. There were so few passengers that revenue collection would not be a problem although I can't remember now if anybody asked to see my ticket.

 

[si404]

as WFJ is Oysterised , some folk try and evade paying on the train if going to London and swipe in the Junction.

Install some Oyster readers, make the branch the same zone 'W' as WFJ, and that will disappear, surely?

Doesn't deal with traffic to/from Watford, rather than London, but helps boost the accuracy of the counts on the branch stations.

 

[Aictos]

Poor reliability , endemic door faults I am told by traincrew -

360's would be better , - much newer and of course "related" to those maintained at Northampton

Good point on the Class 360s BUT can they be reformed into 3 car sets?

Failing that I'm sure there a number of Class 313s they could use....

It’s exactly the same process.

Which is what I said above:

I disagree, the rules are there for a reason and be it a road scheme, a rail scheme, a tramway whatever the people responsible HAVE to go by them and not bend the rules as you assumed.

All planning applications have to go though the same process regardless so no I don't agree that there would be no hesitation if it was a road widening scheme.

 

[Saint66]

I need to drive into Watford in the morning peak a couple of times a year and the town is only just short of being gridlocked on most occasions. That really is the killer for any busway.

Last time I then took an off peak train up to St Albans, just because I had never ridden the line before. There were so few passengers that revenue collection would not be a problem although I can't remember now if anybody asked to see my ticket.

With St Albans City introducing Oyster next year adding the system to the Abbey line would make a lot or sense.

 

[MarkyT]

I need to drive into Watford in the morning peak a couple of times a year and the town is only just short of being gridlocked on most occasions. That really is the killer for any busway.

That is a case for judicious use of dedicated public transport lanes on street or in other rights of way (perhaps including the branch line and other unused rail alignments in the Watford area), prioritisation and traffic management techniques, not a case against rubber tires per se. The same argument would apply for a rail-based tram system, i.e. it shouldn't have significant sections of on street running shared with general road traffic, where that traffic is likely to cause unmanageable delays, especially in the peaks when the system's primary selling point must be journey time reliability.

 

[Bletchleyite]

That is a case for judicious use of dedicated public transport lanes

Judicious use in the form that it is not often seen in the UK, such as a bus lane all the way to a junction and then the bus gets to go first with all other roads on red when it approaches. That's the Dutch and German way, and it works.

 

[Bevan Price]

You need to have a look around sometime , it is an interesting line and of course St Albans has many attractions.

Buses are fine off peak in this area , but the last mile into Watford and SAC are an absolute killer , - Watford has been encircled by a terrible ring-road which acts as a Berlin Wall for pedestrians and the approaches from Garston are log-jammed , SAC has the previously mentioned medieval street pattern and IMHO the worst driving standards in the UK. An awful combination.(especilally this am at 0745 when I did 2 related work journeys for family members in this dire weather)

The bus "station" at Watford Junction does exist , but is a disgrace with minimal facilities and a standard of cleanliness that defies description , SAC though does have a decent enough interchange in front of the station.

.

Also, both Watford Junction station and the adjacent bus station must be about 10 minutes walk from the town centre.... Last time I was there, it did not seem immediately obvious which buses ran between station & town centre.