• Our new ticketing site is now live! Using either this or the original site (both powered by TrainSplit) helps support the running of the forum with every ticket purchase! Find out more and ask any questions/give us feedback in this thread!

Project Thor / eVoyager

Status
Not open for further replies.

DDB

Member
Joined
11 Sep 2011
Messages
726
I travelled today (Sunday) on two full and standing cross country voyagers. I believe my experience is not that unusual. I was therefore wondering whatever happened to project Thor/eVoyager?

I understand it turned out to be harder than first thought but surely that is not a reason to give up as adding an extra coach to existing stock must be cheapest and easiest way of introducing badly needed capacity and the voyagers are going to spend an increasing amount of their time under the wires as Southampton to Oxford and Derby to Sheffield are wired up in the coming years.

DDB
 
Sponsor Post - registered members do not see these adverts; click here to register, or click here to log in
R

RailUK Forums

Pumbaa

Established Member
Joined
19 Feb 2008
Messages
5,022
Deader than a Dodo. Or the Dinosaurs. Definitely deader than a Diplagnostidae.*

*Bonus points to whoever can identify one first ;)
 

fgwrich

Established Member
Joined
15 Apr 2009
Messages
10,609
Location
Hampshire
Well, one of the reasons as to why the project seems to be on a indefinate hold is down to our dear friends in Derby, As im led to believe that they were to be awarded the funding as long as they used the Alstom Onyx Traction Package - Produced in Preston, and this funding was to keep Preston in production. Bombardier however seems to take that as a yes we'll look into using Preston but our own branded kit produced in Sweden will do instead. Which in doing so, managed to p*ss off the DfT. And i gather the Alstom Onyx Package is that currently used in the Voyagers at the moment, making maintenance easier for those in Polmadie. Then there's the jigs....
 

O L Leigh

Established Member
Joined
20 Jan 2006
Messages
5,609
Location
In the cab with the paper
Too many rumours.

I've heard more than a couple of rumours, none of which overlap with the replies you've already had.

1) Adding a pantograph trailer would render the entire unit a "new" train and, therefore, subject to all the current legislations regarding diesel emissions and electronic systems compliance, all of which the units would fail.

2) There are no transformers small enough to fit underneath the floor that are man enough to provide both traction and "hotel" power for the entire train. To get around this, the diesel engines would be required to run to provide at least some of the electrical power required by the units thereby negating the proposed benefits of adding the capability of running off the OHLE.

3) The only transformers available that might even get close to providing the capabilities required are manufactured in the Ukraine and contain all manner of materials unpalatable to the Western world. Suffice to say, any such components would contravene the laws of the EU and it's member states.

Before I get shot down I should like to stress that these are simply the rumours that I have heard to help explain the reason why the project has been kicked into the long grass. My own belief is that these are simply excuses to cover for the real explanation, which is that constructing pantograph trailers and integrating them into the existing formations is simply too hard and, therefore, too expensive.

I see no reason to expect that XC will have any more HST sets cascaded to them to increase capacity. Probably the only hope is that somehow Virgin WC can be induced to give up their Voyagers. However, perhaps the Trans-Pennine electrification will trigger a Cl170 cascade to benefit XC which may, by some roundabout way, result in the pressure being eased on the Voyager fleet.

But then the real problem is not with the units themselves. Since the Voyager fleet was introduced the XC network has seen an upswing in demand. Given that the days of fleet flexibility and hiring in stock to cover increases in demand have gone, XC have been placed over a barrel. Given that XC (and, by extension, all other TOCs) have finite and limited rolling stock at their disposal, what more can they be expected to do. Intercity TOCs aside, XC is particularly exposed to these vagaries and particularly vulnerable to variations in loading given that their formations generally only vary by a vehicle or two depending on allocations. Taking platform lengths on certain routes into account together with the fact that upswings in demand are not localised on specific locations within their operating area, XC are in a hole with few options of escape. Adding a coach or two to existing formations may help to ease some services but wouldn't herald an overall improvement in service provision.

Therefore I don't believe that there is much that these projects could realistically achieve.

O L Leigh
 

WatcherZero

Established Member
Joined
25 Feb 2010
Messages
10,272
Boils down to several events:

1. Government getting thrashed by media over awarding contract to Siemens rather than Bombardier.
2. Bombardier propose a conversion project to keep the jobs in Derby for a little longer.
3. Government interested, asks for more information.
4. Bombardier refines the proposal changing a significant proportion of the work to now be outside the UK.
5. Government realises it will not be great bang for the buck, engineering challenges, starts to go cold.
6. Bombardier gets several contracts from Tocs for excercising options on existing contracts and Dft funnels a little extra work their way with tenders only Bombardier could win.
7. What was the point of Thor again?
 

Nym

Established Member
Joined
2 Mar 2007
Messages
9,778
Location
Somewhere, not in London
(2) and (3) are damn near on the mark, I'm not going more into it before 6am, but for the power issue to be resolved you'd need to be pushing the limits of available transformers, even for a 4 car to upgrade to 5 car, for upgrading a 5 car, you would need two additional carriages, this is also likely for the four car units, this not only pretty much doubles the cost of the project, but also results in formations that can no longer be doubled up and fit in platforms.

The only realistic way to improve capacity on the XC network now is to crack on with electrification, that would free up 9 to 11 units now with the comitted electrification, MML electrification with sensible extentions would free up a significant amount more.
 

The Ham

Veteran Member
Joined
6 Jul 2012
Messages
12,021
The only realistic way to improve capacity on the XC network now is to crack on with electrification, that would free up 9 to 11 units now with the comitted electrification, MML electrification with sensible extentions would free up a significant amount more.

Even freeing up about 10 units (about 18% of the Voyagers run by XC) by having EMU's running Manchester to the South Coast would make a big difference to XC, especially it the EMU's were significantly longer than at present (say 9 coaches long).

It then comes down would it be better to electrify more of the MML's routes or fill in a few more gaps on the XC network to free up more IC DMU's. Given the software incompatibility between the Voyagers and Meridians which means that they are currently unable to run together, I would suggest that sort out the gaps in the XC network would be better option. Even if only enough gaps where done to free up the Newcastle to Reading services that would free up even more Voyagers.

See the map here of the post 2019 XC network which will be electrified (there's a small error but it does give a fairly good overview of the situation):
http://www.railforums.co.uk/attachment.php?attachmentid=12726&d=1351681624
 

Surreyman

Member
Joined
29 Jan 2012
Messages
1,017
Even freeing up about 10 units (about 18% of the Voyagers run by XC) by having EMU's running Manchester to the South Coast would make a big difference to XC, especially it the EMU's were significantly longer than at present (say 9 coaches long).

It then comes down would it be better to electrify more of the MML's routes or fill in a few more gaps on the XC network to free up more IC DMU's. Given the software incompatibility between the Voyagers and Meridians which means that they are currently unable to run together, I would suggest that sort out the gaps in the XC network would be better option. Even if only enough gaps where done to free up the Newcastle to Reading services that would free up even more Voyagers.

See the map here of the post 2019 XC network which will be electrified (there's a small error but it does give a fairly good overview of the situation):
http://www.railforums.co.uk/attachment.php?attachmentid=12726&d=1351681624
As previously mentioned, the Network Rail 2009 Electrification document details 'Tier 1' (i.e highest priority) which includes most of main North-east to Southwest Cross-Country network, basically Yorkshire, Derby - Birmingham, Birmingham - Bristol, Bristol - Plymouth.
If 'Thor' is a No-Go (for whatever reason), then presumably to make the electrification work, you would need a fleet of new Bi-Modes to run Cross-Country.
Although explored in these columns, there would seem to be very few places where you could cascade 125mph, fuel thirsty/overpowered (expensive to run)Voyagers with their narrow bodies and end doors, I can only think of Waterloo - Exeter, Portsmouth - Cardiff, Manchester - Norwich and existing XC Cardiff - Nottingham, all at much greater cost and with unpopular seating/interior layout etc.
 

jopsuk

Veteran Member
Joined
13 May 2008
Messages
12,774
I'm sure I saw (but I'm dammed if I'm searching though again) a reference to the idea (not by name) in the recent published Strategic Business Plans- indicating it might not be as dead as previously reported.
 

swt_passenger

Veteran Member
Joined
7 Apr 2010
Messages
34,227

Chris125

Established Member
Joined
12 Nov 2009
Messages
3,265
Location
Isle of Wight
It's looking like Thor will be superseded to some extent by electrification anyway, what with the Electric Spine in CP5 and Derby-Bristol widely expected in CP6.

Chris
 

DarloRich

Veteran Member
Joined
12 Oct 2010
Messages
32,887
Location
Fenny Stratford
But then the real problem is not with the units themselves. Since the Voyager fleet was introduced the XC network has seen an upswing in demand. Given that the days of fleet flexibility and hiring in stock to cover increases in demand have gone, XC have been placed over a barrel. Given that XC (and, by extension, all other TOCs) have finite and limited rolling stock at their disposal, what more can they be expected to do. Intercity TOCs aside, XC is particularly exposed to these vagaries and particularly vulnerable to variations in loading given that their formations generally only vary by a vehicle or two depending on allocations. Taking platform lengths on certain routes into account together with the fact that upswings in demand are not localised on specific locations within their operating area, XC are in a hole with few options of escape. Adding a coach or two to existing formations may help to ease some services but wouldn't herald an overall improvement in service provision.

Therefore I don't believe that there is much that these projects could realistically achieve.

O L Leigh

Therefore I propose a radical proposal:

XC petition for a new, more realistic fleet of trains with the Voyagers cascaded to another TOC.

There is no shame in saying we have been so popular that we need bigger and better trains to please our passengers - THAT is a success story that hides the original failings in purchasing the Voyager
 

Zoe

Established Member
Joined
22 Aug 2008
Messages
5,905
XC petition for a new, more realistic fleet of trains with the Voyagers cascaded to another TOC.
Most journeys on XC are short to medium ditance and I'm sure there would be the argument that the Voyagers are well suited for this in addition to long distance intercity journeys.
 

DarloRich

Veteran Member
Joined
12 Oct 2010
Messages
32,887
Location
Fenny Stratford
Most journeys on XC are short to medium ditance and I'm sure there would be the argument that the Voyagers are well suited for this in addition to long distance intercity journeys.

I wondered how long that would take! I disagree with that statement. Many people travel much further than a short distance

My meaning is that the trains need to be longer to meet demand, not the quality of the train or the length of the journey.
 

rf_ioliver

Member
Joined
17 Apr 2011
Messages
1,024
Would it make sense to re-gear the Voyagers for 100mph operation for routes such as Cardiff-Portsmouth/Northampton, Norwich-Liverpool for example?

Just a thought anyway...

Ian
 

YorkshireBear

Established Member
Joined
23 Jul 2010
Messages
9,661
Would it make sense to re-gear the Voyagers for 100mph operation for routes such as Cardiff-Portsmouth/Northampton, Norwich-Liverpool for example?

Just a thought anyway...

Ian

It would make more sense to just take an engine out, acceleration is already fantastic...
 

JamesRowden

Established Member
Joined
31 Aug 2011
Messages
1,762
Location
Ilfracombe
With the planned electric spine I think that making all Crosscountry services to Reading electric is a solution to the problem of there not being enough Voyagers.

Under the present electrification plans the Bournemouth-Manchester service will be completely under the wires and so can be given electric stock.

I think that the Southampton/Reading-Birmingham-Newcastle service could be rerouted to travel onwards from Birmingham to either Liverpool (replacing one of the 2tph London Midland services) or Glasgow (replacing the West Coast service). This would lead to all Reading-Birmingham Crosscountry routes being fully electrified.

The eastern branch of the Electric Spine (Midland Mainline) will provide a fully electrified route from Reading to Sheffield via East West Rail (Oxford-Bedford). If Sheffield-Doncaster/Leeds was electrified early in CP6 then a fully electrified Crosscountry service could run from Reading to Edinburgh via the Midland Mainline and East Coast Mainline.

Crosscountry services at Reading could also be extended to Heathrow (forming some of the planned 4tph between Reading and Heathrow).
 

Goatboy

Established Member
Joined
23 Jun 2011
Messages
2,274
Most journeys on XC are short to medium ditance and I'm sure there would be the argument that the Voyagers are well suited for this in addition to long distance intercity journeys.

Except they are not, or it wouldn't be standing room only on so many of them.
 

The Ham

Veteran Member
Joined
6 Jul 2012
Messages
12,021
As previously mentioned, the Network Rail 2009 Electrification document details 'Tier 1' (i.e highest priority) which includes most of main North-east to Southwest Cross-Country network, basically Yorkshire, Derby - Birmingham, Birmingham - Bristol, Bristol - Plymouth.
If 'Thor' is a No-Go (for whatever reason), then presumably to make the electrification work, you would need a fleet of new Bi-Modes to run Cross-Country.
Although explored in these columns, there would seem to be very few places where you could cascade 125mph, fuel thirsty/overpowered (expensive to run)Voyagers with their narrow bodies and end doors, I can only think of Waterloo - Exeter, Portsmouth - Cardiff, Manchester - Norwich and existing XC Cardiff - Nottingham, all at much greater cost and with unpopular seating/interior layout etc.

From the start of Appendix 3 (P102 of the PDF) of the Network Rail 2009 Electrification document:
http://www.networkrail.co.uk/browse...ation strategy/networkrus_electrification.pdf

Tier 1 options are those which enable the most passenger vehicle miles to convert to electric traction per single track mile electrified.

--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

At some point in the not to distant future the Network Rail 2009 Electrification document is due a refresh:

http://www.networkrail.co.uk/browse...ork\Working Group 6 - Electrification Refresh

Electrification Refresh will revisit the 2009 document and provide an update to reflect the electrification schemes that are currently progressing or are committed. It will then set out the options for further electrification over the next 30 year period and consider a priority for delivery.
 
Last edited:

MCR247

Established Member
Joined
7 Nov 2008
Messages
10,290
Would it make sense to re-gear the Voyagers for 100mph operation for routes such as Cardiff-Portsmouth/Northampton, Norwich-Liverpool for example?

Just a thought anyway...

Ian

No because they are still completely unsuitable for those routes. In an ideal world, some 222s would be displaced from MML, put back into their original 9 and 4 car formations and would supplement voyagers on XC, mean each train either 8, 9 or 10 coaches
 

The Ham

Veteran Member
Joined
6 Jul 2012
Messages
12,021
With the planned electric spine I think that making all Crosscountry services to Reading electric is a solution to the problem of there not being enough Voyagers.

Under the present electrification plans the Bournemouth-Manchester service will be completely under the wires and so can be given electric stock.

I think that the Southampton/Reading-Birmingham-Newcastle service could be rerouted to travel onwards from Birmingham to either Liverpool (replacing one of the 2tph London Midland services) or Glasgow (replacing the West Coast service). This would lead to all Reading-Birmingham Crosscountry routes being fully electrified.

The eastern branch of the Electric Spine (Midland Mainline) will provide a fully electrified route from Reading to Sheffield via East West Rail (Oxford-Bedford). If Sheffield-Doncaster/Leeds was electrified early in CP6 then a fully electrified Crosscountry service could run from Reading to Edinburgh via the Midland Mainline and East Coast Mainline.

Crosscountry services at Reading could also be extended to Heathrow (forming some of the planned 4tph between Reading and Heathrow).

All sounds reasonable. The only "problem" with rerouteing the Southampton/Reading to Newcastle service is that it then bypasses Birmingham which is currently the centre of the XC universe.

Although that then could free up a path through Birmingham for another XC service (maybe Liverpool to Reading/Heathrow or Plymouth to Peterborough), which XC may see as more of an opportunity than a problem.
 

Zoe

Established Member
Joined
22 Aug 2008
Messages
5,905
If you cut back the XC network to say Edinburgh, Southampton, Manchester and Exeter (and the former Central routes) then I'd have thought this would allow more double Voyagers to run. It wouldn't be my preference but it depends on if direct trains are more important than having extra capacity in the core section.
 

159220

Member
Joined
23 Mar 2011
Messages
158
I was at a talk with a TOC MD who is familiar with Project Thor. It was confirmed this is a dead idea. It proved cheaper to buy a new all electric 125mph train than add a pantograph. Looks like Derby shot themselves in the foot over cost and lack of flexibility. Bring on the Hitachi factory in Country Durham and some proper trains to be constructed!
 

fgwrich

Established Member
Joined
15 Apr 2009
Messages
10,609
Location
Hampshire
I was at a talk with a TOC MD who is familiar with Project Thor. It was confirmed this is a dead idea. It proved cheaper to buy a new all electric 125mph train than add a pantograph. Looks like Derby shot themselves in the foot over cost and lack of flexibility. Bring on the Hitachi factory in Country Durham and some proper trains to be constructed!

No surprise there, welcome to the wonderful world of Bombardier, one of the UKs 'Favourite British Manufactureres' it seems (according to some media outlets - severe tongue in cheek comment!). As for Hitachi and wonderful proper trains, No Thanks. The over expensive rubbish product that is IEP is costing us enough as it is, anyone who signs up to Roger Fords INFORMED SOURCES e-Preview will find some interesting articles about that in there, especially as it could be about to get interesting cost wise.

As for suitible rolling stock for the XC Services, i hate to say this but it agree with MCR247 - Now that were lumbered with the Voyagers, there's very little else that they'd actually be suitible for, so displacing some 222s would probably be their best bet - and No, we don't want them on the Great Western thanks!
 

MCR247

Established Member
Joined
7 Nov 2008
Messages
10,290
As for suitible rolling stock for the XC Services, i hate to say this but it agree with MCR247 - Now that were lumbered with the Voyagers, there's very little else that they'd actually be suitible for, so displacing some 222s would probably be their best bet - and No, we don't want them on the Great Western thanks!

Yeah, the basis of my thinking isn't that voyagers are perfect, but really, XC is one of the only things they are suited for. They really only suit long distance intercity diesel trains, and this is basically XC. At least by displacing some 4 and 9 car 222s we could make the best of the bad situation that we currently have? The best thing we could do IMO, is form the 222s back in to 4 and 9 car, and send the 4 cars to XC, meaning that everything in between York(?)/Newcastle, Bristol, Reading and Manchester is 8 cars, with services leaving a set behind at these stations when continuing further. At least this would solve the issue of core capacity, without carting around a load of fresh air too often
 

Muzer

Established Member
Joined
3 Feb 2012
Messages
2,784
There are probably some routes where Voyagers would be better from a passenger perspective than what they have now. Whether they would be practical on those routes (wrt running costs, acceleration, length of the trains etc.) is another matter. I'm thinking more of the slightly shorter/less well-used intercity diesel routes, such as the Wessex Main Line (there must be more). I expect they would be too long (compared to the number of passengers) and too fast for that particular one though - presumably it wouldn't operate particularly efficiently.
 
Last edited:
Joined
5 Aug 2011
Messages
791
Yeah, the basis of my thinking isn't that voyagers are perfect, but really, XC is one of the only things they are suited for. They really only suit long distance intercity diesel trains, and this is basically XC. At least by displacing some 4 and 9 car 222s we could make the best of the bad situation that we currently have? The best thing we could do IMO, is form the 222s back in to 4 and 9 car, and send the 4 cars to XC, meaning that everything in between York(?)/Newcastle, Bristol, Reading and Manchester is 8 cars, with services leaving a set behind at these stations when continuing further. At least this would solve the issue of core capacity, without carting around a load of fresh air too often

I thought the 222's and 220 were unable to operate in unison so is unlikely to happen.
 

Helvellyn

Established Member
Joined
28 Aug 2009
Messages
2,563
There is no shame in saying we have been so popular that we need bigger and better trains to please our passengers - THAT is a success story that hides the original failings in purchasing the Voyager
The first part of this statement applies to Midland Mainline - acquired 17 2-car 170/1s for new services; expanded 10 of them to 3-car units; brought in the 4-car 222s (with many Voyager design issues removed) to replace the 170s.
 

ainsworth74

Forum Staff
Staff Member
Global Moderator
Joined
16 Nov 2009
Messages
31,067
Location
Redcar
I thought the 222's and 220 were unable to operate in unison so is unlikely to happen.

It's a software thing. 220s and 221s have Alstom software whilst 222s have Bombardier software. I would assume that, if you're happy to lose the tilt capability, you could basically just reinstall Bombardier software on the 220s and 221s (and I suppose vice versa, but I'm lead to believe that the Bombardier software is better).

Basically they won't work together out of the box but I imagine it would not be too complex to fix that problem.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.

Top