Project on Sleeper Services.

[Airline Man]

For a long time! Air fares are generally cheap too. You can fly to any of Glasgow, Edinburgh or Aberdeen today for less than £75 with squeezy, and around £100 with BA.

About half of the passengers on BA domestic flights are connecting to/from other flights. Domestic flights do not make money but provide a 'positive contribution'. Ie they feed the long haul flights.

The airlines would be delighted if a high speed rail link was built to Heathrow, they could chop most domestics and use the slots to open up markets and fly more long haul routes.

 

[6Gman]

My own personal view of the sleepers are that, to the general public, they are too expensive. I used to work in a travel centre selling all sorts of tickets and many customer would baulk at the cost of a ticket and the reservation cost.

We also used to try and sell Motorrail which also used to be expensive.

The Sleepers here are one or two occupancy (I think I am correct here) yet in Europe, e.g. travelling from Brussels to Vienna or suchlike, you have those and also 4 berth couchettes and 6 berth couchettes.

I have traveled from Oostende to Wien (albeit years ago) and the couchettes we had were comfortable, we used the 4 berth couchettes.

So a few questions/suggestions.

• Would the sleepers be better utilised by having cheaper fares?
• What about 4 or 6 berth couchettes as a cheaper alternative?
• What about Cross country sleepers as well?

1. Probably, but not enough to offset the reduced income (better 10 at £300 than 12 at £200);
2. Probably not within the British loading gauge;
3. Probably not - insufficient volume between any two points.

 

[Bald Rick]

About half of the passengers on BA domestic flights are connecting to/from other flights. Domestic flights do not make money but provide a 'positive contribution'. Ie they feed the long haul flights.

That's an interesting statistic. Applying it to the London - ABZ market, about 1.1m pax per year across all airlines, to get to 80 sleeper pax each way per night means you'd need to take a bit more than 10% of the non-connecting market. And I don't think that's realistic, as I don't suppose 10% of the market is paying full fare or anywhere near it.

Presumably the domestic flights make money for easyjet etc though, as they have no long haul to connect too, and are more than happy to chop unprofitable routes.

 

[Taunton]

I'm a periodic traveller between London and Aberdeen - by air. I stay in a hotel there overnight on arrival.

It's very easy to get to the airport and park there for some days. Not so at Kings Cross. Most of my colleagues travelling to Aberdeen start off from nowhere near Kings Cross. Even if you do leave from a Central London office, just what do you do, with luggage and on your own, between 6 pm and 10 pm.

I would not send my female staff to Kings Cross late at night to wait for a train. One of the upsides of airports is their freedom from drunks, beggars and pickpockets in a way that main railway termini (and any associated car parks nearby) late at night have never been able to manage.

The two key downsides of sleeper travel are the jolting of the bed all through the night, and the non-existent shower etc facilities.

There is a long tradition of such services being operated to suit the railway. It would be nice to board a 10 pm departure by about 8 pm, if not 6 pm (like a hotel), and it might even be advertised as such, but you can bet it would be opened up 10 minutes before departure. Likewise arriving passengers have always been thrown out at 0730 to free up the platform for the morning rush. To ensure this, attendants traditionally go round and wake everyone up at about 0600.

The separate portions of Scottish sleeper trains and the characteristics of the couplings means you can only join them by pushing at about 5 mph with a locomotive controlled from several carriages away. The resulting big thump wakes everyone up.

They would be targeting the business market to/from Aberdeen. Ie. The oil business. Fares would be pitched higher than the normal unrestricted First Class fare but just below the airlines.

Air fares I pay are typically much less than unrestricted First Class rail fares.

The full unrestricted oneway fare on British Airways to Aberdeen is £378 and many firms are prepared to stump up for that for whereas the equivalent first class fare on Virgin East Coast (If I'm looking in the right place) is £230.50.

I've just looked at typical dates/flights I take on BA and the fare is £287.77, £100 less than you state. Meanwhile an "advance" first class on the daytime train, same dates, is £334.65, and an "unrestricted" ticket is £455. This is for a first class seat in a carriage which holds 48, which can manage the round trip from Aberdeen to London and back, and its associated revenue, within the day. You are proposing fares in an equal-sized carriage which holds 12, and can only make one trip per 24 hours.

Really sorry, but your market went long ago.

 

[JamesTT]

I am sure you have considered this but have you thought the price point should be comparable to a flight plus hotel with breakfast.

 

[Taunton]

plus hotel with breakfast.

You are not going to provide a hotel-quality breakfast in the train for all the passengers without a restaurant car, another dead-revenue vehicle. It would need to cater for everyone at the same time, you are not going to be able to do "sittings" with everyone off the train before 0730. If you provide it landside on arrival there's the issue that the whole trainload walk in at once on arrival, and many will want to go to the office, or meet with colleagues, elsewhere.

That would be true for me, from London, going north. Returning on the evening flight, there's no hotel or breakfast cost on my expenses, of course, because I drive home (where my lovely wife will be waiting for me!). But presumably the rail fares will be the same both ways.

Final observation is that many of the "oil industry" customers are heading for the rigs, and would therefore need to go onward to ...... Aberdeen airport, for their helicopter, or their shuttle flight up to the Shetlands for rig flights from there. Rather defeats the purpose.

 

[Peter Mugridge]

The two key downsides of sleeper travel are the jolting of the bed all through the night, and the non-existent shower etc facilities.

1) Some of us find the motion helps us get to sleep.

2) One night without a bath or shower is not going to make most people sticky or stinky. Some it will, yes, but not most. In any case it's certainly possible to wash properly with a flannel and soap without having to waterboard oneself...

The resulting big thump wakes everyone up.

No it doesn't; I've used the Highlander on at least seven occasions and the Lowlander... must be about 25 - 30 times and I nhave never once been woken up by the shunting operation at either edinburgh or cartairs respectively. And I'm quite a light sleeper...

 

[Monkey Magic]

I'm a periodic traveller between London and Aberdeen - by air. I stay in a hotel there overnight on arrival.

It's very easy to get to the airport and park there for some days. Not so at Kings Cross. Most of my colleagues travelling to Aberdeen start off from nowhere near Kings Cross. Even if you do leave from a Central London office, just what do you do, with luggage and on your own, between 6 pm and 10 pm.

I would not send my female staff to Kings Cross late at night to wait for a train. One of the upsides of airports is their freedom from drunks, beggars and pickpockets in a way that main railway termini (and any associated car parks nearby) late at night have never been able to manage.

I don't think you've been to a London termini for a while then and clearly not to KX either. Maybe if you went in 1985 you might have come across beggars, pickpockets etc if you went marching up and down Pentonville Road with a sign saying please rob me. But inside the station - come on, not even the Daily Mail at its carpet chewing worst would claim that.

The only way you'll find someone begging is if you go looking for them. Secondly, there is as much retail at your average London termini as there is at any airport.

 

[Bald Rick]

Secondly, there is as much retail at your average London termini as there is at any airport.

Not so, Heathrow turns over retail income more than 50 times what the busiest NR station does.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

No it doesn't; I've used the Highlander on at least seven occasions and the Lowlander... must be about 25 - 30 times and I nhave never once been woken up by the shunting operation at either edinburgh or cartairs respectively. And I'm quite a light sleeper...

Again, experiences vary, I have a 100% record of being woken by shunting on the sleepers.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

2) One night without a bath or shower is not going to make most people sticky or stinky. Some it will, yes, but not most. In any case it's certainly possible to wash properly with a flannel and soap without having to waterboard oneself...

I quite agree. However if I was spending £300 on a luxury alternative to a flight + hotel I would expect a good shower.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

Final observation is that many of the "oil industry" customers are heading for the rigs, and would therefore need to go onward to ...... Aberdeen airport, for their helicopter, or their shuttle flight up to the Shetlands for rig flights from there. Rather defeats the purpose.

Very good point.

 

[lejog]

I'm a periodic traveller between London and Aberdeen - by air. I stay in a hotel there overnight on arrival.

I was a regular traveller on business between London and Aberdeen for many years until last year and travelled by sleeper. I note you don't include the price of your hotel in your calculations below.

It's very easy to get to the airport and park there for some days. Not so at Kings Cross. Most of my colleagues travelling to Aberdeen start off from nowhere near Kings Cross. Even if you do leave from a Central London office, just what do you do, with luggage and on your own, between 6 pm and 10 pm.

Why would anyone in the SE want to drive to Central London? Just jump on a train. If working in Central London (as I was), you can have an early dinner and join the Aberdeen service at 8.30pm. (It departs Euston at 9.15 so arriving at Kings Cross at 10pm won't do you much good).

I would not send my female staff to Kings Cross late at night to wait for a train. One of the upsides of airports is their freedom from drunks, beggars and pickpockets in a way that main railway termini (and any associated car parks nearby) late at night have never been able to manage.

8.30 late at night? The women where I work must be a hardier breed because I'd get a real earful if I even thought of such discrimination.

The two key downsides of sleeper travel are the jolting of the bed all through the night, and the non-existent shower etc facilities.

Fortunately I sleep like a log. Our offices in Aberdeen are a short walk from the station and have showers (cyclist friendly) and so too do our clients' offices, so I've had breakfast and a cleanup and am working by 8.00am.

There is a long tradition of such services being operated to suit the railway. It would be nice to board a 10 pm departure by about 8 pm, if not 6 pm (like a hotel), and it might even be advertised as such, but you can bet it would be opened up 10 minutes before departure. Likewise arriving passengers have always been thrown out at 0730 to free up the platform for the morning rush. To ensure this, attendants traditionally go round and wake everyone up at about 0600.

I don't know where you get your information about the "traditional sevice", but as I've said before the sleeper is available from 8.30pm. I've never been woken up at 6.00am, always fairly punctually at the requested time, 7.15am for Aberdeen.

The separate portions of Scottish sleeper trains and the characteristics of the couplings means you can only join them by pushing at about 5 mph with a locomotive controlled from several carriages away. The resulting big thump wakes everyone up.

Not me.

Air fares I pay are typically much less than unrestricted First Class rail fares. I've just looked at typical dates/flights I take on BA and the fare is £287.77, £100 less than you state. Meanwhile an "advance" first class on the daytime train, same dates, is £334.65, and an "unrestricted" ticket is £455. This is for a first class seat in a carriage which holds 48, which can manage the round trip from Aberdeen to London and back, and its associated revenue, within the day. You are proposing fares in an equal-sized carriage which holds 12, and can only make one trip per 24 hours.

I forgo the first class and slum it in Standard solo, really little difference except the guaranteed lounge access and free breakfast. May have a drink in the lounge if it is available, but I eat defore departure and on arrival. Average fare paid was around £150, which is very competitive with air fares.

Really sorry, but your market went long ago.

Well apparently not so, quite often in midweek the lounge bar isn't available to Standard Class passengers (and while I've never travelled then) certainly not on the Friday night departures from London when its full of media types and MPs.

Yes some of my colleagues choose to fly up in the morning, drive around the M25 at 5am and arriving half dead at 10am.

 

[Airline Man]

Thanks for your help everyone. I'm pleased I've at least given some thought to most of the points you've raised. There have been done great points.

 

[87031]

fares are way too expensive, Should be some sort of bargain berth ticket available as well

 

[XC90]

Meals included off train before departure and easy breakfasts on train delivered to room. Double rooms with toilet and shower, TV, wifi. Comfy beds. Drinks and snacks complimentary with room service throughout the night. Breakfast as an option off train at destination. Stop at Edinburgh for seated customers between there and Aberdeen. Maybe have lie flat or seats to cater for last minute walk up passengers between edinburgh and London (1 coach). Late Anglo services will attract last minute customers for seated portion.