Program on the overcrowded railways tonight

[Fincra5]

I'd be very surprised if Southern invested in more rolling stock before the end of the franchise.

 

[northwichcat]

So basically its talking about every peak train, which from memory have always been crowded. In my experience only a few services off-peak are too busy, mainly those when the cheap tickets are valid

On some routes almost every service is busy e.g. the western part of Liverpool-Norwich, North TPE between Manchester and Leeds and Bolton to Manchester.

 

[NSEFAN]

I imagine many passengers think the train companies own their trains, in which case it is quite reasonable for them to be frustraited by overcrowding. They don't know about the merry-go-round of money that goes on between the TOCs, Network Rail and the ROSCOs. I wish I'd bought all that stock back in the 90s; it would have been a nice little earner!

I still hear people refer to the railways as BR. Not too far back, a party of cyclists turned away from a 150 at Polsloe Bridge said they were going to write to British Rail to complain about the lack of room for bikes! To me, that summed up the passengers' view on things: they don't really notice or care who runs it, to them it's just a train. All they want is to get from A to B at a reasonable price.

 

[Smudger105e]

Then add bolshy unions on top...

Sorry, how is this unqualified comment relevant to train overcrowding?

 

[Boppawombat]

MY view is that all TOCs have a duty to keep costs down. This is the reason why, when they order new rolling stock, they tend to limit themselves to two, three and four car configurations at most. Virgin did this with the dreadfully inadequate and over-designed (and over-gimmicky) Voyagers and Pendolinos. The Voyagers had less than half the seating capacity of the 8 car HSTs that they replaced on cross country routes via Birmingham. It didn't help either than when they designed these appalling trains they used half of the carriage length for entrance vestibules...and now you can see why these trains easily became over crowded - because there simply wasn't enough seating space!!! Even a five car Voyager - if you're lucky enough to see one, wasn't enough. The minimum length should have been six car. NO LESS.

As for the claustrophobic aeroplane cabin-like Pendolinos, these are nine cars, of which four or five are first class, once again it ultimately gives you just 4 cars per train of standard class seating to travel to London from Manchester. Compare that with the 11 car loco-hauled Mark III coaching stock configurations of the late 1980s/early 90s where an immeasurably larger number of seats was available per service.

IT simply isn't economical in these penny-pinching overheads-obsessed times for any TOCs to run trains with more coaches than that is absolutely necessary, as they need to be able to recoup their losses when trains run half empty during the late evening after the peak hours have subsided. One of the worst offenders over the course of the last 10 years is East Midland Trains (formerly Central Trains) who insist on useless 2-car Class 158 trains between Nottingham/Norwich and Liverpool Lime Street. All too often I cannot even get on board one of these trains due to its inadequate length or overcrowding or the fact that the air con isn't working and these crummy godawful train units (which were utter crap the very first day they entered service for Transpennine Express routes back in 1989) become like saunas on wheels - surely a health and safety risk, ironically speaking. At least when it WAS still operated by Central Trains we saw the odd 3 or 4 car formation on this route. Not now, it would seem. It's all a case of economics and keeping costs down by running as short a train as possible and maximising their profits: it's legal for them to cram passengers into their trains like cattle trucks, you see.

Now, if it was London, on the other hand, imagine the sheer uproar that would ensue if a long-distance train was comprised of less than four carriages????

We truly are the laughing stock of Europe in this one respect.

The TOCs think people are stupid, which is why they keep banging on about more capacity and greater choice blah blah blah, when in actual fact long distance rail travel is now a luxury for those who can afford to pay over the odds just to stand on a crowded Virgin Pendolino or XC Voyager for a sizeable proportion of the journey. And they say this is progress? What effing planet are these calculating devious morons on??

 

[OuterDistant]

Compare that with the 11 car loco-hauled Mark III coaching stock configurations of the late 1980s/early 90s where an immeasurably larger number of seats was available per service.

Not to mention a huge guard's van that could take virtually anything that a passenger was likely to turn up with. These days it's a lottery as to whether you'll get on board if the train is a bit busy, and you've got a decent sized suitcase / bike / wheelchair etc.

 

[Boppawombat]

Not to mention a huge guard's van that could take virtually anything that a passenger was likely to turn up with. These days it's a lottery as to whether you'll get on board if the train is a bit busy, and you've got a decent sized suitcase / bike / wheelchair etc.

Indeed.

Some of us older generation tend to be accused of having rose-tinted spectacles whenever we casually dismiss a lot of the modern railway business (note I used that word and not industry) as being inefficient and badly managed....well the facts surely speak for themselves when you compare the old vertical integration of the former much-criticised BR with the multi-faceted pyramid of confusion that is the modern privatised railway right now.

Make no mistake, many of the same issues (financial, political, economical, ideological, etc) still applied back then as they do today but it seems that the manner of thinking and actual application of principles now seems to have irreversibly changed, becoming imperceptibly skewed towards one thing only: profit / market forces ... And most certainly NOT "service"..... more like an obligation.

Is Britain really the only developed industrialised nation in Western Europe whereby the attitude of those companies providing/delivering our public transport services appears more like they're trying to begrudge the humble commuter/passenger for being - shock, horror! - reliant on what should be an basic civil right [i.e. mass transit from one point to another in the easiest, safest and most practical way possible].

I'd like to think so.

 

[northwichcat]

As for the claustrophobic aeroplane cabin-like Pendolinos, these are nine cars, of which four or five are first class, once again it ultimately gives you just 4 cars per train of standard class seating to travel to London from Manchester. Compare that with the 11 car loco-hauled Mark III coaching stock configurations of the late 1980s/early 90s where an immeasurably larger number of seats was available per service.

While I don't like how the Pendolino interior has been arranged, in the case of Manchester-London the number of services has tripled since the days of loco-hauled. As the 'Tonight' program quite rightly pointed out there isn't a lack of carriages on Manchester-London, the only reason for overcrowding is the pricing structure.

One of the worst offenders over the course of the last 10 years is East Midland Trains (formerly Central Trains) who insist on useless 2-car Class 158 trains between Nottingham/Norwich and Liverpool Lime Street. All too often I cannot even get on board one of these trains due to its inadequate length or overcrowding

Well it isn't EMT's fault that DfT decided that they could run the local and regional routes with less stock than CT used on the same services.

Maybe EMT could look at using one or two Meridian diagrams on Liverpool-Norwich on Saturdays and decrease the amount of time units spend at depots or at stations between services but the underlying problem wasn't created by EMT.

Now, if it was London, on the other hand, imagine the sheer uproar that would ensue if a long-distance train was comprised of less than four carriages????

I was at Greenwich station one Saturday when DLR out to Greenwich was closed for engineering works. A Cannon Street bound service showed up as 4 car 465 and I heard numerous grumbles about a "short formed service showing up." The 4 car 465 fitted easily fitted everyone on, so I couldn't see what all the grumbling was about.

 

[Boppawombat]

While I don't like how the Pendolino interior has been arranged, in the case of Manchester-London the number of services has tripled since the days of loco-hauled. As the 'Tonight' program quite rightly pointed out there isn't a lack of carriages on Manchester-London, the only reason for overcrowding is the pricing structure.

Every 20 minutes now - which is good, I have to concede. And when they're punctual then I have absolutely no complaints. After all it only takes me 6 minutes to whizz from Piccadilly to Stockport where I live. The fare structure is an absolute nightmare though, that is true.

Well it isn't EMT's fault that DfT decided that they could run the local and regional routes with less stock than CT used on the same services.

Maybe EMT could look at using one or two Meridian diagrams on Liverpool-Norwich on Saturdays and decrease the amount of time units spend at depots or at stations between services but the underlying problem wasn't created by EMT.

I know, having spoken to their customer relations many times - and some of them have been very helpful to give them their due - they all say that their hands are tied. Sad indictment of the times then....and it's just so bloomin' frustrating whichever way you look at it.

I was at Greenwich station one Saturday when DLR out to Greenwich was closed for engineering works. A Cannon Street bound service showed up as 4 car 465 and I heard numerous grumbles about a "short formed service showing up." The 4 car 465 fitted easily fitted everyone on, so I couldn't see what all the grumbling was about.

Perhaps everybody is so USED to seeing longer trains down in London, the sight of one less than five carriages will doubtless give them a bit of a shock!