problems at west brompton

[lb89]

I am confused as to what I should do at West Brompton. I travel from West Brompton to Bletchley and back every two weeks or so to visit an ill relative. Unfortunately I am not able to buy tickets in advance (no fast ticket machine at West Brompton, often can't predict when I travel and so can't book in sufficient time to have them posted).

The ticket office that serves both for tubes and trains at West Brompton now has very limited opening hours, and I often arrive when it is closed. I am unable to buy a fare that takes into account the Young Person's Railcard discount at the single machine that they have there.

The first few times I had this problem, the people at the station let me through the barriers and I bought my ticket on the train. Recently, however, the station supervisor has said that I could not be allowed through the barriers without a ticket and so has obliged me to buy a full price adult ticket.

This seems unfair to me as I pay to have a Young Person's Railcard and so am paying for discounted fares and yet being forced to buy full price ones. Does anybody know what the correct thing to do is in this situation? Should they let me on to the train if they are unable to sell me the correct ticket at the station? Or is it just bad luck that I have to buy full price tickets?

 

[ainsworth74]

Should they let me on to the train if they are unable to sell me the correct ticket at the station?

As far as I am aware if their are not the facilities to purchase the ticket you require at the station you are boarding then you are allowed to purchase on-board with access to the full range of appropriate tickets.

 

[yorkie]

The first few times I had this problem, the people at the station let me through the barriers and I bought my ticket on the train. Recently, however, the station supervisor has said that I could not be allowed through the barriers without a ticket and so has obliged me to buy a full price adult ticket.

That's wrong. I know people get fed up of me saying this, but get their name and write to the TOC and complain, requesting that the member of staff is familiarised with the Conditions of Carriage. Enclose your tickets and ask for a refund of the difference.

This seems unfair to me as I pay to have a Young Person's Railcard and so am paying for discounted fares and yet being forced to buy full price ones. Does anybody know what the correct thing to do is in this situation? Should they let me on to the train if they are unable to sell me the correct ticket at the station? Or is it just bad luck that I have to buy full price tickets?

If there are no issuing facilities, you can buy on-board or, if no-one can sell you a ticket on board, at your destination. (Or, if doing a journey involving a change of train, at the interchange if there is sufficient time, without missing your onward train).

If there are limited facilities, buy a ticket part-way and get it excessed. Refuse to pay any more than the correct fare.

http://www.nationalrail.co.uk/system/galleries/download/misc/NRCOC.pdf

3. Where the full range of tickets is not available If you cannot buy an appropriate ticket for the journey you want to make because the range of tickets that is available at the station from which you intend to start your journey is restricted, you must buy a ticket or Permit to Travel before you travel that entitles you to make at least part of the journey. Then you must, as soon as is reasonably practicable, buy an appropriate ticket to complete your journey. In these circumstances, you only need to pay the fare that you would have paid if you had bought a ticket immediately before your journey. The price you will have to pay will be reduced by the amount paid for the ticket or Permit to Travel.

e.g. you require a WBP-BLY Off Peak Return (SVR) @ £16.35 (with YNG discount) you could buy a ticket to, e.g. Hemel Hempstead (CDR @ £10.00 with no discount) and pay a £6.35 excess on board. By the way, an Off Peak Return is cheaper if you buy to Milton Keynes Central rather than Bletchley (£13.20 to MKC, £16.35 to BLY), this is because railway ticketing is illogical at times.

Bring a copy of the NCoC with you next time, and if any staff refuse to adhere to it, pass on details to Southern. If you get nowhere doing that, contact Passenger Focus, London Travelwatch & ATOC. And let us know and we can help draft a letter.

 

[DavyCrocket]

West Brompton often has its staff taken to keep Fulham Broadway or Earl's Court open due to staff shortages.

 

[lb89]

Thank you so much, especially to yorkie. Helpful advice - I wish I'd known the conditions of carriage when I was arguing with them last time but at least it will save me paying too much in the future.
Also very good to know about the ticket to MK - train ticketing is mad!

 

[hairyhandedfool]

I feel I must agree with Yorkie (*shudders* )

 

[yorkie]

I feel I must agree with Yorkie (*shudders* )

To be fair we generally don't disagree apart from on complex matters such as interpretations of rules that, to put it mildly, will never get a Plain English award In such cases, you interpret it usually as favouring the TOC, while I favour the passenger. But most issues we'll agree on and there won't be a debate But debates are what this forum is for and I wouldn't want it any other way (well, to a point )

 

[bangor-toad]

Hi,
There's an alternative ticket that might be useful to you:

Have a look at the "Southern Downlander" ticket. It's one of Southern's rover type tickets. There are two points that may make this useful to you:
1 - It only needs to be bought two days in advance
2 - You print the ticket at home so no post or collection issues.

It costs £12.50 with no discount for a YP railcard.
Cheers,
Jason

 

[paul1609]

That's wrong. I know people get fed up of me saying this, but get their name and write to the TOC and complain, requesting that the member of staff is familiarised with the Conditions of Carriage. Enclose your tickets and ask for a refund of the difference.

If there are no issuing facilities, you can buy on-board or, if no-one can sell you a ticket on board, at your destination. (Or, if doing a journey involving a change of train, at the interchange if there is sufficient time, without missing your onward train).

If there are limited facilities, buy a ticket part-way and get it excessed. Refuse to pay any more than the correct fare.

http://www.nationalrail.co.uk/system/galleries/download/misc/NRCOC.pdf

e.g. you require a WBP-BLY Off Peak Return (SVR) @ £16.35 (with YNG discount) you could buy a ticket to, e.g. Hemel Hempstead (CDR @ £10.00 with no discount) and pay a £6.35 excess on board. By the way, an Off Peak Return is cheaper if you buy to Milton Keynes Central rather than Bletchley (£13.20 to MKC, £16.35 to BLY), this is because railway ticketing is illogical at times.

Bring a copy of the NCoC with you next time, and if any staff refuse to adhere to it, pass on details to Southern. If you get nowhere doing that, contact Passenger Focus, London Travelwatch & ATOC. And let us know and we can help draft a letter.

Not sure that this advice is entirely correct.
West Brompton is a London Underground Station that Southern services happen to call at along with London Overground. As such TFL terms and conditions apply to the station. For instance the penalty fare is £50 even if you intend to join a Southern service where it would normally be £20. Technically I dont believe that you are entitled to access the station without a valid ticket here even if you are joining a service on which a national rail railcard would be valid.

Having said that Ive always found the staff at West Brompton to be very accomodating with my HMF railcard.

 

[RJ]

e.g. you require a WBP-BLY Off Peak Return (SVR) @ £16.35 (with YNG discount) you could buy a ticket to, e.g. Hemel Hempstead (CDR @ £10.00 with no discount) and pay a £6.35 excess on board. By the way, an Off Peak Return is cheaper if you buy to Milton Keynes Central rather than Bletchley (£13.20 to MKC, £16.35 to BLY), this is because railway ticketing is illogical at times.

Milton Keynes is an anomaly due to competition. A London Terminals - MKC return is cheaper than a Boundary Zone 6 - MKC return. Care must be taken with regards to breaking journeys along that stretch of line as several ticket types (barring SO) don't permit it.

 

[yorkie]

Not sure that this advice is entirely correct.
West Brompton is a London Underground Station that Southern services happen to call at along with London Overground. As such TFL terms and conditions apply to the station. For instance the penalty fare is £50 even if you intend to join a Southern service where it would normally be £20. Technically I dont believe that you are entitled to access the station without a valid ticket here even if you are joining a service on which a national rail railcard would be valid.

Having said that Ive always found the staff at West Brompton to be very accomodating with my HMF railcard.

I thought about this, and my conclusion is that, my statement "If there are limited facilities, buy a ticket part-way and get it excessed." is not in any way at odds with your statement, "I dont believe that you are entitled to access the station without a valid ticket here" as you would be entering the station with a valid ticket, the ticket happens to be part way but that is of no concern to LUL and is a matter between the passenger and Southern and is entirely within the National Rail Conditions of Carriage, and doesn't infringe upon any conditions set by TfL.

 

[RJ]

That's wrong. I know people get fed up of me saying this, but get their name and write to the TOC and complain, requesting that the member of staff is familiarised with the Conditions of Carriage. Enclose your tickets and ask for a refund of the difference.

If there are no issuing facilities, you can buy on-board or, if no-one can sell you a ticket on board, at your destination. (Or, if doing a journey involving a change of train, at the interchange if there is sufficient time, without missing your onward train).

If there are limited facilities, buy a ticket part-way and get it excessed. Refuse to pay any more than the correct fare.

http://www.nationalrail.co.uk/system/galleries/download/misc/NRCOC.pdf

e.g. you require a WBP-BLY Off Peak Return (SVR) @ £16.35 (with YNG discount) you could buy a ticket to, e.g. Hemel Hempstead (CDR @ £10.00 with no discount) and pay a £6.35 excess on board. By the way, an Off Peak Return is cheaper if you buy to Milton Keynes Central rather than Bletchley (£13.20 to MKC, £16.35 to BLY), this is because railway ticketing is illogical at times.

The Saver from WBP to BLY does not permit Break of Journey unless one is changing trains. Bletchley has manned barriers.

Yes I agree about paying a part fare, not more than the value of the actual fare.

 

[yorkie]

The Saver from WBP to BLY does not permit Break of Journey unless one is changing trains. Bletchley has manned barriers.

Can you quote where it is stated that a journey cannot be broken for this ticket?

BTW a change of trains isn't actually a break of journey anyway, so the person at ATOC who wrote that doesn't know their own rules

Definition of Break of Journey:

For the purposes of this Condition and Condition 11, you will be treated as breaking your journey if you leave a Train Company’s or Rail Service Company’s stations after you start your journey other than:
(i) to join a train at another station, or
(ii) to stay in overnight accommodation when you cannot reasonably
complete your journey within one day, or
(iii) to follow any instructions given by a member of a Train Company’s staff.

Depending on the location of barriers, you can exit barriers even when break of journey is not permitted (e.g. at Leeds) to access station facilities (e.g. Wetherspoons pub) providing you do not leave the station premises.

However I see nothing to prevent break of journey on the ticket in question.

 

[RJ]

Can you quote where it is stated that a journey cannot be broken for this ticket?

BTW a change of trains isn't actually a break of journey anyway, so the person at ATOC who wrote that doesn't know their own rules

Definition of Break of Journey:



Depending on the location of barriers, you can exit barriers even when break of journey is not permitted (e.g. at Leeds) to access station facilities (e.g. Wetherspoons pub) providing you do not leave the station premises.

However I see nothing to prevent break of journey on the ticket in question.

I should have said that break of journey is forbidden with an SVS or the outward leg only of an SVR in this case. No restriction on BoJ on the return leg. As for the ATOC quote, there will be situations where one might be permitted to walk to another nearby station to catch another train and complete their journey. Although the CoC says that this specifically does not count as a BoJ, some people might naturally assume it does so it's probably in there to reduce any disputes at barriers.

 

[John @ home]

The Saver from WBP to BLY does not permit Break of Journey unless one is changing trains.

I should have said that break of journey is forbidden with an SVS or the outward leg only of an SVR in this case. No restriction on BoJ on the return leg.

I don't agree. There is no SVS fare West Brompton - Bletchley. The SVR permits break of both legs of the journey:

Origin : WEST BROMPTON
Destination : BLETCHLEY
Route : 00700 - NOT LONDON
SVR - OFF-PEAK R
Break of Jrny: (OUT) YES. (RTN) YES.

 

[RJ]

I don't agree. There is no SVS fare West Brompton - Bletchley. The SVR permits break of both legs of the journey:

It also tells you to see the notes below. Would you like to quote those notes for us?

 

[Mojo]

BREAK OF JOURNEY              
                              
Off-Peak Singles and the      
outward portion of Off-Peak   
Returns are valid for travel  
on the date shown on the      
ticket. Where a passenger     
wishes to stop overnight or   
the journey cannot be         
completed within one day,     
break of journey for an       
overnight stay is allowed.    
Where a journey continues into
the next day, travel must     
resume before 1200 and any    
relevant time restrictions    
apply (except where regarded  
as an unbroken continuation   
of the previous day's travel  
where the first connection of 
the day may be taken).        
No further break of journey   
is allowed except for the     
purpose of changing trains.   
[B]Please note that break of     
journey is not permitted on   
some journeys, as detailed_in 
the ticket restrictions[/B].

This is a generic message to say that some tickets do not allow break of journey, and you should check the restriction code. The restriction code for a West Brompton - Milton Keynes Ctl ticket says that break of journey is allowed on both legs.

 

[John @ home]

It also tells you to see the notes below. Would you like to quote those notes for us?

The notes for SVR West Brompton - Bletchley route Not London relevant to a break of journey are:

NOTES:

BREAK OF JOURNEY

Off-Peak Singles and the outward portion of Off-Peak Returns are valid for travel on the date shown on the ticket. Where a passenger wishes to stop overnight or the journey cannot be completed within one day, break of journey for an overnight stay is allowed. Where a journey continues into the next day, travel must resume before 1200 and any relevant time restrictions apply (except where regarded as an unbroken continuation of the previous day's travel where the first connection of the day may be taken). No further break of journey is allowed except for the purpose of changing trains. Please note that break of journey is not permitted on some journeys, as detailed in the ticket restrictions.

Return portions of Off-Peak Return tickets are valid for travel until 0230 on the day following the last day of validity (i.e. one calendar month from the outward journey). If a passenger is still travelling at 0230, they may stay on the train to complete that part of the journey but no further break of journey is allowed and all travel must be completed by 1200.

The ticket restrictions for West Brompton - Bletchley route Not London make it clear that this is not one of the journeys for which break of journey is not permitted. I quoted the relevant part in post #15 above.

 

[yorkie]

The rules changed in September 2008. Prior to this date, what RJ says was correct in that SVS (then Saver Single) and the outward portion of SVR tickets (then called Saver Return, now called Off Peak Return) did indeed bar a 'break of journey' (BOJ).

I'm going to quote what I said in the Stoke - Northampton topic...

Before simplification it was simple, all walk-on tickets were valid for BOJ with the exception of SVS and the outward portion of SVRs (then called Saver Single / Saver Return) and in some rare cases where they existed, SSS / SSR.

Then they decided to allow BOJ on the outward portion but some TOCs couldn't agree so they said "except where a validity code prevents it", this applies to a relatively small, but increasing, number of SVR/SSR tickets on the outward portion, but you're still fine for the return portion. However unfortunately many new products e.g. OPR (Super Off Peak) also have this restriction, and to make matters worse some of them also restrict the return portion.

In general, it's fairly safe to say that the return portion of almost any walk-on ticket is fine for break of journey, and the only exceptions that I know of, are a few OPR type products, e.g. on London Midland, but these are not enforced and LM even encourage us to start short in some cases!

Simplification? They're having a laugh!

Brought to you by the same people who use the oxymoron term "negative easement", and who despise the Clear English campaign, and who treat passengers with total and utter contempt. A degree in ticketing is required to avoid being ripped-off by them.

"Simplification" was brought about by the DfT in the form of Passenger Focus (who are funded by DfT - a rather fundamental flaw) and acted upon by ATOC.

The "Simplification" of walk-on fares that took place in September 2008 has, in almost all respects, made ticketing more complex and less simple than before.

 

[RJ]

This is a generic message to say that some tickets do not allow break of journey, and you should check the restriction code. The restriction code for a West Brompton - Milton Keynes Ctl ticket says that break of journey is allowed on both legs.

The ticket restrictions for West Brompton - Bletchley route Not London make it clear that this is not one of the journeys for which break of journey is not permitted. I quoted the relevant part in post #15 above.

However I see nothing to prevent break of journey on the ticket in question.

Yes, right you are. My apologises for my error of judgement here.

 

[yorkie]

No problem