Problem with Northern Refund

[gray1404]

I brought a Northern Family and Friends day ticket using a coopen my friend gave me who works for them. I went to the station and my train was cancelled. I decided not to travel. I wrote to Northern customer relations and they have replied with a day ticket allowing travel on Northern. Is this correct?

When I wrote to them and returned my unused ticket I gave the details of the cancelled train and expressly requested a refund under the National Rail Conditions of Carriage. Surely even Northern Family and Friends day tickets are subject to the National Rail Conditions of Carriage too.

I basically wanted a refund.

 

[najaB]

I basically wanted a refund.

How much money did you pay for the ticket?

 

[gray1404]

How much money did you pay for the ticket?

Price was £6.

 

[Haywain]

I think you are entitled to a refund by the same method of payment as used originally. This is pretty much what you have received. It is unreasonable to expect a monetary refund in these circumstances.

 

[gray1404]

Is it though? If so, that would mean the NRCoC does not apply to those tickets. Even though the ticketing stock it is printed on states that it does. If you are entitled to a refund under the NRCoC then I should have been sent a cheque for £6. If I am entitled to a refund by the same method of payment then that too would be a cheuqe (given a used cash and of course they'd not send cash in the post.) I'd even have been happy with a Rail Travel Voucher as at least I can use that on any TOC. Northern is a company I very seldom travel on you see.

 

[najaB]

Price was £6.

Did you give them £6 of your money?

 

[gray1404]

Did you give them £6 of your money?

Yes, I did.

 

[najaB]

Yes, I did.

I was getting confused by the mention of a coupon. It looks like you are better off than a refund as a Day Ranger is worth a lot more than £6. I'm sure there are ways to get rid of it if you'll never use it.

 

[gray1404]

I was getting confused by the mention of a coupon. It looks like you are better off than a refund as a Day Ranger is worth a lot more than £6. I'm sure there are ways to get rid of it if you'll never use it.

Ah, ok, yes, basically is a coupen given by a friend who works for Northern and that can be then used to exchange for a day ticket, for which you pay £6 at the booking office. I see what you mean about the value of what they've sent me being more then £6 already - which I have paid already.

Strictly speaking though I do feel it was a bit naughty of them not to abide by the NRCoC. Moreover when I expressly requested a refund on that basis. Even though the terms and conditions on the back of the voucher state that once issued the day tickets are not refundable, this does not take away the overriding factor of the NRCoC. The same would apply to Advance tickets if a customer had their travel cancelled and decided not to travel.

 

[Hadders]

I don't think this is unreasonable at all. You cannot expect cash to be refunded when you paid using a coupon.

Furthermore, is the coupon your friend gave to you transferable? They could end up getting into trouble if they shouldn't have given it to someone else. If so I wouldn't complain any further.

 

[185143]

I don't think this is unreasonable at all. You cannot expect cash to be refunded when you paid using a coupon.

Furthermore, is the coupon your friend gave to you transferable? They could end up getting into trouble if they shouldn't have given it to someone else. If so I wouldn't complain any further.

If I've read it right, the OP's friend is a guard for Northern? These coupons are for friends and family of Northern staff.

A cheap day ranger on NT only wouldn't be much use for anyone that works for said TOC would it?
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

Yes, I did.

I was getting confused by the mention of a coupon. It looks like you are better off than a refund as a Day Ranger is worth a lot more than £6. I'm sure there are ways to get rid of it if you'll never use it.[\B]

(my bold) I need around 85 northern shacks now, mostly very far away from home... Hint hint...

 

[causton]

I'd gladly pay more than £6 for it

 

[yorkie]

I don't think this is unreasonable at all. You cannot expect cash to be refunded when you paid using a coupon.

Furthermore, is the coupon your friend gave to you transferable? They could end up getting into trouble if they shouldn't have given it to someone else. If so I wouldn't complain any further.

The original post is not clear, and suggests that a coupon was used to pay, however knowledge of these fares plus details posted in a subsequent post, means we can assume he paid £6 (cash, presumably) and also used a coupon. He has now got a ticket of greater value in return, for which people will no doubt be queuing up to give him more than the £6 he originally paid.

 

[185143]

I don't think this is unreasonable at all. You cannot expect cash to be refunded when you paid using a coupon.

Furthermore, is the coupon your friend gave to you transferable? They could end up getting into trouble if they shouldn't have given it to someone else. If so I wouldn't complain any further.

The original post is not clear, and suggests that a coupon was used to pay, however knowledge of these fares plus details posted in a subsequent post, means we can assume he paid £6 (cash, presumably) and also used a coupon. He has now got a ticket of greater value in return, for which people will no doubt be queuing up to give him more than the £6 he originally paid.

The ticket should not be issued without the coupon. (Proof of entitlement really)

 

[yorkie]

The ticket should not be issued without the coupon. (Proof of entitlement really)

Indeed. The opening post should have clarified that the coupon was used in conjunction with payment of £6, to avoid confusion. I can see how hadders was confused as to why a refund was wanted for a coupon!

 

[gray1404]

Sorry guys I was not clear in my first post. Yes, its a coupen plus the £6 - both are required.

 

[reb0118]

Coopen, Coupen, or Coupon?

We have an expression up here in Scotland - "I'll stamp your coupon" and it does not have anything to do with tickets.

Regardless of how it is spelt I will gladly take the compensatory voucher from you for £6.00 plus the price of a stamp. (I may even stretch to the price of a pint - Liverpool not Edinburgh prices mind! - for the inconvenience factor)

Seriously though why not use the voucher yourself as there are plenty of stunning lines operated by Northern - e.g. The Furness & Cumberland Coastal Route, the S&C, or the Morecambe - Leeds.

I've just been watching Ian Nairns "Football Towns" on the youtube - go on visit Preston.........

 

[455driver]

This strikes me as another 'I wanted a refund, they gave me more than I am entitled to, who do I complain to' thread.

I think you have a year to use the ticket, I reckon even I could manage that and I live a few hundred miles away!

 

[najaB]

This strikes me as another 'I wanted a refund, they gave me more than I am entitled to, who do I complain to' thread.

From what others have written about Northern, I bet if the op wrote in to complain about getting a Day Voucher, they probably would recieve another one as a gesture of goodwill.

 

[bnm]

This strikes me as another 'I wanted a refund, they gave me more than I am entitled to, who do I complain to' thread.

It strikes me as someone who wanted a cash refund after paying cash for a service that was not provided. That is an entitlement laid down in the National Rail Conditions of Carriage.

That Northern sent something that has a nominally greater monetary value is by the by.

The OP has made no mention of complaining. He came here seeking clarification.

 

[Solent&Wessex]

The First Group equivalent Friends and Family tickets, which are also £6, have a clause in the specific Ts and Cs relating to these staff tickets that no refunds are available once the ticket is purchased.

As these tickets are special promotional fares only available to staff (in Northern's case via a voucher, which staff can give to their friends) then I would say that Northern could well include extra Ts & Cs relating to refunds etc.

EDIT : I have just found the 2014 Ts&Cs printed on the reverse of the coupons, and the associated staff briefings. Assuming they haven't changed them for 2015, then no refunds are due (my bold):

Terms & Conditions:
Full terms and conditions are listed on the back of the voucher(s).
• the offer is only available to the friends and family of Northern employees
• a valid promotional voucher must be presented and completed at the
time of the booking no photocopies will be accepted
• Up to four Northern friends and family tickets can be purchased with one
voucher
• tickets can only be issued at ticket offices, no ticket issues will be
permitted on train
• vouchers can be exchanged for tickets in advance of travel, up to a
maximum of seven days in advance
• the child fare in this promotion applies to children aged 5 – 15 inclusive.
Children under the age of 5 travel free of charge. Children must be
accompanied by an adult
• tickets must be retained for inspection whilst travelling
• all travel must be made on the date shown on the ticket and is restricted
to off-peak services Monday to Friday (peak period is defined as journeys
timed to depart before 0930) and travel at any time on Saturdays and
Sundays and Bank Holidays
• the ticket holders must travel together at all times
• no other railcard discount or promotional offers can be used in
conjunction with this offer
• this offer is not valid on other Train Operating Companies’ services
• the offer is only valid on Northern services
• Northern Friends & Family Tickets cannot be used for travel 1 July to 8 July
2014 (inclusive)
• no refunds or changes can be made once the tickets are issued
• any infringement of these conditions and any misuse and/or abuse may
lead to withdrawal of the benefit and disciplinary action

Furthermore, there is an FAQ section in the staff briefing, which also says :
Q. Can I change my booking or get a refund?
A. Once a booking has been made, no refunds or changes are allowed
So, I would suggest that whilst the OP as the user of the voucher may not have read the back of the voucher, the staff member who was issued with the voucher in the first place would be fully responsible for informing the OP as user of the voucher about the Ts&Cs. This is much the same as the countless people I find every year with them travelling on non-Northern services, all of whom feign ignorance and state how ridiculous it is etc etc. I always refer them back to the staff member who gave them the voucher in the first place who should have told them.

 

[bnm]

Northern's T&Cs can't override the National Rail Conditions of Carriage:

Train companies and other ticket sellers must:

<snip>

Give you, if you ask, a full refund, if you find out after you bought your ticket that your journey is going to be delayed, your train has been cancelled or that your seat reservation will not be honoured.

My bold.

 

[Solent&Wessex]

Northern's T&Cs can't override the National Rail Conditions of Carriage:



My bold.

Why not?

It is a staff only promotional fare. NRCOC also says...

Tickets remain the property of the relevant Train Company. Each ticket is issued subject to:
...
(c) the conditions which apply to ... and certain types of reduced and discounted fare tickets as set out in the notices and other publications issued by the Train Companies whose trains you are entitled to use;

 

[gray1404]

This is exactly my point. I have no mention of complaining back to Northern about them sending me a day voucher rather then a refund. My personal preference would have been a RTV or cheque but that's by the by. I had a service cancelled on me so didn't use the ticket and it would have messed up all my plans for that day.

So my question on here was simply if the National Rail Conditions of Carriage would apply to this refund request. Yes, I did read the back of the voucher regarding no refunds being allowed. However, you could apply the same situation to an Advance ticket that is non refundable. However, as the service was cancelled the customer would be entitled to a refund if they choose not to travel. Or with a walk up ticket a full refund with no admin fee. So I wondered if the same would apply here.

I had always though that the NRCoC would override anything else.

 

[najaB]

I had always though that the NRCoC would override anything else.

Not on special or promotional offers. They can (and usually do) have their own T&Cs.

 

[scipiiouse]

Weird that they wouldn't give you a refund on the day.

I've shown up to canceled trains for an hour ahead of me and managed to get a refund for an anytime before.

 

[gray1404]

Did you get your ticket from the same office that you got the refund from?

I brought the ticket from Liverpool Lime Street the day before. I wanted to start my journey from Manchester Oxford Road but got to the station to discover it was cancelled. They advised that I need to send in for the refund because I didn't get the ticket from that station and provided me with the Comment Card to post back with the ticket to Customer Relations.

As a side point, the reason I got my ticket the day before is because my plan was to start my journey from a Northern served station that was run (and the booking office run by) by Merseyrail. I didn't want to take the risk of them not knowing how to issue a Northern Family and Friends.