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Privately owned track/train integration - what could go wrong?

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Sad Sprinter

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So with all the talk about different branding operations for GB News Railways, I wanted to know why a fully private “track and train” approach wouldn’t work.

Say we had a GB Rail Group head company, and split the railway up into different private segments. Say:

GB South East - the old Southern Railway
GB West - GWR
GB West Coast - Avanti, LNWR, Northern
GB Midland - EMR and Northern’s South Yorkshire services
GB East Coast - LNER and Northern’s North East and West Riding services
GB Anglia - self explanatory

Each company is privately owned and floated on the stock exchange. What could possibly go wrong?
 
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Peter Sarf

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So with all the talk about different branding operations for GB News Railways, I wanted to know why a fully private “track and train” approach wouldn’t work.

Say we had a GB Rail Group head company, and split the railway up into different private segments. Say:

GB South East - the old Southern Railway
GB West - GWR
GB West Coast - Avanti, LNWR, Northern
GB Midland - EMR and Northern’s South Yorkshire services
GB East Coast - LNER and Northern’s North East and West Riding services
GB Anglia - self explanatory

Each company is privately owned and floated on the stock exchange. What could possibly go wrong?
Cross Country ?.

I think the word private is now a dirty word.
How about FAG - Financially Autonomous Group.
In your list there would be six FAGs or should I say six packets of FAGs.
Perhaps Cross Country would be a sub packet of FAGs.

We cannot let Scotland and Wales go it alone ?.

I think there is a case for fewer larger groups but the UK is not ready for another stab at privatisation.
 

simonw

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So with all the talk about different branding operations for GB News Railways, I wanted to know why a fully private “track and train” approach wouldn’t work.

Say we had a GB Rail Group head company, and split the railway up into different private segments. Say:

GB South East - the old Southern Railway
GB West - GWR
GB West Coast - Avanti, LNWR, Northern
GB Midland - EMR and Northern’s South Yorkshire services
GB East Coast - LNER and Northern’s North East and West Riding services
GB Anglia - self explanatory

Each company is privately owned and floated on the stock exchange. What could possibly go wrong?
Without large scale subsidies they wouldn't float but sink.
 

SynthD

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Natural monopolies? No benefit for the customer. Repeat of railtrack? No benefit for the customers surviving family. It just sounds like the ideal way to extract as much money as possible from the public.
 

Peter Sarf

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Natural monopolies? No benefit for the customer. Repeat of railtrack? No benefit for the customers surviving family. It just sounds like the ideal way to extract as much money as possible from the public.
But they are not monopolies. The COMPETITION is other modes of transport. That was the stupidity of the last privatisation - to create unnecessary competition. The other problem with privatisation was the money that logically got siphoned away in profits.
 

Sad Sprinter

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Cross Country ?.

I think the word private is now a dirty word.
How about FAG - Financially Autonomous Group.
In your list there would be six FAGs or should I say six packets of FAGs.
Perhaps Cross Country would be a sub packet of FAGs.

We cannot let Scotland and Wales go it alone ?.

I think there is a case for fewer larger groups but the UK is not ready for another stab at privatisation.

Cross Country I thought could be owned by all the companies. Financially Autonomous Groups is an interesting phrase…

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: ==

But they are not monopolies. The COMPETITION is other modes of transport. That was the stupidity of the last privatisation - to create unnecessary competition. The other problem with privatisation was the money that logically got siphoned away in profits.

Yeah that’s what I’ve always thought.
 

JonathanH

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Cross Country ?.
Disbanded as an entity, with joint working across the regions.

Each company is privately owned and floated on the stock exchange.
Public sentiment is very much against private profit in the railway. Would it be better if they were all operated as not-for-profit entities? Splitting them up isn't however helpful from a cross subsidy point of view. I think people prefer one organisation splitting up the funding and operating cross subsidies, rather than the DfT explicitly having to allocate funding.
 

Peter Sarf

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Disbanded as an entity, with joint working across the regions.


Public sentiment is very much against private profit in the railway. Would it be better if they were all operated as not-for-profit entities? Splitting them up isn't however helpful from a cross subsidy point of view. I think people prefer one organisation splitting up the funding and operating cross subsidies, rather than the DfT explicitly having to allocate funding.
The last years of Nationalised BR showed this was possible. We had sectorisation amongst other things. The railways' trying to improve themselves was stifled by John Majors vanity project - that Maggie Thatcher wanted to leave the railways alone says to me privatisation too far.
 

edwin_m

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The COMPETITION is other modes of transport.
There are some markets for which other modes don't offer any real competition: commuters particularly into London, bulk freight, some intercity journeys (where journey time is critical and air is too slow door to door). So these need some element of regulation to prevent a private operator gouging the market, which would be damaging for the customers and for the economy in general. Once this becomes necessary it brings with it quite a lot of the downsides of the original privatisation. If these companies were owners and operators in perpetuity then there wouldn't even be the sanction of terminating or not renewing a franchise, so the situation could end up very similar to the water industry in England where failing companies have little incentive to perform but nationalising them would cost too much.
 

Peter Sarf

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There are some markets for which other modes don't offer any real competition: commuters particularly into London, bulk freight, some intercity journeys (where journey time is critical and air is too slow door to door). So these need some element of regulation to prevent a private operator gouging the market, which would be damaging for the customers and for the economy in general. Once this becomes necessary it brings with it quite a lot of the downsides of the original privatisation. If these companies were owners and operators in perpetuity then there wouldn't even be the sanction of terminating or not renewing a franchise, so the situation could end up very similar to the water industry in England where failing companies have little incentive to perform but nationalising them would cost too much.
I agree this is an issue.
Railfreight seems to be competing with itself nicely and I would leave that alone. Only problem is the waste of duplicated resources - almost non existent rescue locomotives spring to mind.
For commuting there is little scope for competition within the railways unless you allow TOCs to operate near identical routes to their competitors int each terminus.
London commuting is particularly bad with such heavy use and over long distances with no real competing mode. I suppose the example of CrossRail (Elizabeth Line) filling up so fast just shows how much demand there is.
 

Sad Sprinter

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Public sentiment is very much against private profit in the railway. Would it be better if they were all operated as not-for-profit entities? Splitting them up isn't however helpful from a cross subsidy point of view. I think people prefer one organisation splitting up the funding and operating cross subsidies, rather than the DfT explicitly having to allocate funding.

That is very true. If one were to create a system like the one proposed, which of the companies would be the most and least profitable? I'm assuming "GB SouthEast" would be at the top.
 

Magdalia

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So with all the talk about different branding operations for GB News Railways, I wanted to know why a fully private “track and train” approach wouldn’t work.

Say we had a GB Rail Group head company, and split the railway up into different private segments. Say:

GB South East - the old Southern Railway
GB West - GWR
GB West Coast - Avanti, LNWR, Northern
GB Midland - EMR and Northern’s South Yorkshire services
GB East Coast - LNER and Northern’s North East and West Riding services
GB Anglia - self explanatory

Each company is privately owned and floated on the stock exchange. What could possibly go wrong?
This looks remarkably like a railway version of the water industry.

That went well didn't it?
 

Magdalia

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Whats the worse that could happen?
Endemic underinvestment in maintenance, renewals and new capacity.

Loading up with debt to distribute the funds to shareholders and executives.

Customers ending up having to pay through large price increases.
 

Sad Sprinter

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Endemic underinvestment in maintenance, renewals and new capacity.

Loading up with debt to distribute the funds to shareholders and executives.

Customers ending up having to pay through large price increases.

Does that mean its impossible to have privately owned infrastructure run in a beneficial way to customers or is the water industry an isolated case?
 

Magdalia

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Does that mean its impossible to have privately owned infrastructure run in a beneficial way to customers or is the water industry an isolated case?
The risks are different in each case. Another example is whether there has been sufficient investment in new electricity grid capacity to cope with increased demand and changes in the generation mix.

I'd turn the question the other way around. Given the example of the water industry, what safeguards would you put in place to ensure that private ownership of railway infrastructure was for the benefit of customers, preventing asset stripping for the benefit of shareholders and executives?
 

Trainbike46

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So with all the talk about different branding operations for GB News Railways, I wanted to know why a fully private “track and train” approach wouldn’t work.

Say we had a GB Rail Group head company, and split the railway up into different private segments. Say:

GB South East - the old Southern Railway
GB West - GWR
GB West Coast - Avanti, LNWR, Northern
GB Midland - EMR and Northern’s South Yorkshire services
GB East Coast - LNER and Northern’s North East and West Riding services
GB Anglia - self explanatory

Each company is privately owned and floated on the stock exchange. What could possibly go wrong?
The main question that I would ask is why? What could this strategy possibly achieve?

I agree with @Magdalia that it sounds a lot like a railway version of the water industry, and that whole industry is a disaster, so emulating that is risky at best.

In short, I can only see disadvantages, but I do wonder what your positive case in favour of your proposal is?
 

Sad Sprinter

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The main question that I would ask is why? What could this strategy possibly achieve?

I agree with @Magdalia that it sounds a lot like a railway version of the water industry, and that whole industry is a disaster, so emulating that is risky at best.

In short, I can only see disadvantages, but I do wonder what your positive case in favour of your proposal is?

"Japan does it", really, was my only positive case. I only wanted to see why it wouldn't work. I came up with the idea many years ago during an economics A-Level lesson (I can't remember how I sorted out the freight operations), so was interested in why it was never proposed instead of GBR.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: ==

The risks are different in each case. Another example is whether there has been sufficient investment in new electricity grid capacity to cope with increased demand and changes in the generation mix.

I'd turn the question the other way around. Given the example of the water industry, what safeguards would you put in place to ensure that private ownership of railway infrastructure was for the benefit of customers, preventing asset stripping for the benefit of shareholders and executives?

Great question. What safeguards could we put in place?
 

Magdalia

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"Japan does it", really, was my only positive case.
The economy in Japan is very different. In particular it doesn't run a huge balance of payments deficit and has a culture of high saving, so there are sources of finance without needing to look overseas.
 

eldomtom2

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"Japan does it", really, was my only positive case. I only wanted to see why it wouldn't work. I came up with the idea many years ago during an economics A-Level lesson (I can't remember how I sorted out the freight operations), so was interested in why it was never proposed instead of GBR.
It is worth noting that three of the seven JR companies (JR Freight, JR Hokkaido, and JR Shikoku) are still wholly owned by the government and look unlikely to turn a profit anytime soon. The government also owns the Shinkansen lines built post-privatisation and leases them to the JR companies.
 

Bald Rick

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Japan does it", really, was my only positive case.

Japan‘s railways are, generally, very heavily used, being in or between areas of high population density

Also, have a look at how much railway has closed in Japan in the last 40 years. It’s about 100 lines, with more to come.
 

MarkyT

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Japan‘s railways are, generally, very heavily used, being in or between areas of high population density

Also, have a look at how much railway has closed in Japan in the last 40 years. It’s about 100 lines, with more to come.
Often partly because of the rapidly declining and aging population, especially severe in many rural areas as younger people continue to move to cities.
 

eldomtom2

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It's also worth noting that a common way for lines to escape closure is for the private railway to turn the line over to a "third-sector" company owned and subsidised by local governments.
 

Djgr

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What could possibly go wrong?

Two things that we have surely learnt from the sorry story of the past thirty years or so is that:

a) private companies suck money out of the rail industry so that can appropriate more "castles and islands".

b) private companies may sometimes appear to be customer focused but if there is no short term financial benefit they will not address any long term issue (e.g. not sorting out Sunday working in the space of THIRTY years)
 

Bald Rick

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Often partly because of the rapidly declining and aging population, especially severe in many rural areas as younger people continue to move to cities.

Comign to a contry near you in the next quarter of this century!
 

35B

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What could possibly go wrong?

Two things that we have surely learnt from the sorry story of the past thirty years or so is that:

a) private companies suck money out of the rail industry so that can appropriate more "castles and islands".

b) private companies may sometimes appear to be customer focused but if there is no short term financial benefit they will not address any long term issue (e.g. not sorting out Sunday working in the space of THIRTY years)
The failure on b) is a government failure, because the government made it very clear to companies bidding for franchises that they wouldn't pay the extra for sorting Sunday working out properly.

That raises a second question in the whole public/private debate. The "rail privatisation" we've had on the passenger railway for the last 30-odd years has been a halfway house between public and private. Private companies have operated the trains, but under contract to the government, required to do what the government specify, and on a budget set by government. It's not a nationalised operation, but its also a long way from truly private operation.

Network Rail has been nationalised since Railtrack was collapsed by Stephen Byers, though not formally acknowledged as such until about 10 years ago, and many of the recent disputes there and in the passenger operators have been directly linked to the constraints placed upon them by the government.

Going back to the OP, we don't have a modern comparison point to use. Other networks - Japan has been mentioned, the US deserves a look in - operate in such different contexts that any comparisons are moot. We know from looking back at the latter days of BR that it managed to be borderline profitable on some parts of the passenger network, but was still dependent on subsidy and tended to look at pricing off demand rather than increasing capacity to match. Going a bit further back, we know that the pre-nationalisation companies were quite marginal, and frequently depended on particular traffics (notably coal) to balance the books - though restrictive tariff regulation also limited their ability to respond to changes in cost base which were often government driven (e.g. working hours).

That clearly implies that any fully privatised railway operation would continue to require subsidy, and be subject to government regulation and intervention. If we look at Royal Mail, privatised in 2013, we can see a likely path for such a company. Initial optimism and share prices would be followed by profit warnings and gloom as the companies so formed struggle to sort out their long term structural issues, which would then weaken them. In Royal Mail's case, the next chapter is take over by private equity; the crystal ball is very cloudy as to what will happen in that time.
 
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