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Private parking penalties

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DynamicSpirit

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Well I know people who have simply ignored them, they have had a few letters and that's it.

Indeed. That's basically what happened to me a couple of years ago when I parked in a private road in an industrial estate. I refused to pay because after receiving the first demand, I went back to the area to check the road and signs, and it looked pretty clear to me that the signs were misleading, and gave some impression that parking was freely allowed. (I probably would have paid if I thought I had been in the wrong and if the charge was reasonable, but I was fairly sure this was a case of misleading signs designed to fool people into parking and then getting charged - and there was no way I was going to pay in that situation).

I received a number of very cleverly worded letters, clearly designed to scare me into thinking I could be taken to court if I didn't pay, but without directly saying that. It was all implied in phrases along the lines of 'we'll refer the matter to our solicitor'. I have to admit the letters did make me feel slightly worried, but I continued to ignore them and in the end nothing ever happened.
 
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Antman

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Indeed. That's basically what happened to me a couple of years ago when I parked in a private road in an industrial estate. I refused to pay because after receiving the first demand, I went back to the area to check the road and signs, and it looked pretty clear to me that the signs were misleading, and gave some impression that parking was freely allowed. (I probably would have paid if I thought I had been in the wrong and if the charge was reasonable, but I was fairly sure this was a case of misleading signs designed to fool people into parking and then getting charged - and there was no way I was going to pay in that situation).

I received a number of very cleverly worded letters, clearly designed to scare me into thinking I could be taken to court if I didn't pay, but without directly saying that. It was all implied in phrases along the lines of 'we'll refer the matter to our solicitor'. I have to admit the letters did make me feel slightly worried, but I continued to ignore them and in the end nothing ever happened.

Yes these things do tend to be worded in a way that will scare people into paying up, I guess when two or three such letters get ignored they know they are not going to get anywhere. Even if only one in every five or six pay up they'll still be making a tidy sum out of it.
 

Kite159

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A couple years ago ignoring was good advice as they rarely took court action. Parking Pie likes to do court, mostly they lose with a good defence, but sometimes they win due to the judge not being wised to the scam.

A camera on a pole isn't car park management, you could go into the car park and do doughnuts for an hour and exit (unlikely but the CCTV camera won't know anything.)
 

bnm

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ABSOLUTELY NOT.

You must not ignore them, as the process gets more difficult the further along you go. And once you get to CCJ it has the potential to be quite serious.

However if you follow the appeal process, and appeal on the basis that the penalty charge is not relative to a Genuine Pre Estimate of Loss, then after a couple of months and a few exchanges of correspondence you will be ok. Note this only applies to parking that is normally free (ie no loss) and on private land.

It can apply to any sort of parking on private land. Overstay by an hour in a paid car park? The loss is the cost of one hours parking, not £60, £80, £100...

I know at least a couple of people who have followed much of the online advice and totally ignored Parking Eye PCNs and ended up with CCJs so I guess as long as our court system merely rubber stamps these fines then Parking Eye etc will continue to coin it in,presumably the convenience of ANPR technology make this buisness much more lucrative than in the past

I had the idea that the general advise given to people receiving tickets from PPCs is to just ignore them; you will usually get a few letters, and then they stop, and only once in a blue moon take anybody to court.

This is OLD ADVICE. DO NOT IGNORE private parking Parking Charge Notices or Notices to Keeper.

Since the introduction of the Protection of Freedoms Act 2012 the Registered Keeper of a vehicle can be liable for any Parking Charge Notices issued to their vehicle, even if they were not driving and didn't caommit the alleged breach. Prior to October 2012 the Private Parking Company had to prove who was driving and a Registered Keeper was under no obligation to name a driver.

To get 'Keeper Liability' the private parking industry had to agree to the banning of clamping and towing on private land and also had to agree to having an independent appeals body set up. All PPCs have to be members of an accredited trade body, currently the majority are with the long established British Parking Association (BPA), with some joining the recently created Independent Parking Committee (IPC). Do note however that these bodies aren't really independent of the operators, they are, after all, members clubs funded by them. The BPA and IPC are only concerned in the interests of their members, not the motorist. The BPA funds the POPLA (Parking On Private Land Appeals) service. The IPC funds the IAS (Independent Appeals Service). POPLA is administered and staffed by London Councils. The IAS uses self-employed adjudicators, usually solicitors or barristers.

Membership of an accredited trade body means signing up to a Code of Practice to become an Approved Operator. Only those Private Parking Companies that are in the Approved Operator Scheme can access the Registered Keeper details held by the DVLA.

That's the setup. If you, as Registered Keeper, think a PCN is wrong, or the charge is punitive and not a genuine pre-estimate of loss (they rarely are) then you MUST appeal. First to the PPC who issued it and then if they disallow your appeal to the relevant independent body, either POPLA or IAS. Which one will depend on who the PPC is a member of, the BPA or the IPC.

Ignoring is an invite to the PPC to go to court and get a default win and a CCJ against your name.

DO NOT IGNORE
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
Indeed. That's basically what happened to me a couple of years ago when I parked in a private road in an industrial estate. I refused to pay because after receiving the first demand, I went back to the area to check the road and signs, and it looked pretty clear to me that the signs were misleading, and gave some impression that parking was freely allowed. (I probably would have paid if I thought I had been in the wrong and if the charge was reasonable, but I was fairly sure this was a case of misleading signs designed to fool people into parking and then getting charged - and there was no way I was going to pay in that situation).

I received a number of very cleverly worded letters, clearly designed to scare me into thinking I could be taken to court if I didn't pay, but without directly saying that. It was all implied in phrases along the lines of 'we'll refer the matter to our solicitor'. I have to admit the letters did make me feel slightly worried, but I continued to ignore them and in the end nothing ever happened.

Not in the clear until six years after the event. Some Private Parking Companies are actively trawling old cases where people ignored everything, and then taking them to court.
 

Tetchytyke

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Ignoring used to be the advice, but as bnm says, it is now very foolish advice.

Martin Lewis sets out the argument very clearly here: http://www.moneysavingexpert.com/reclaim/private-parking-tickets

My partner's paid up before now when we were parked in our parking space in our flat's car park- they say the permit wasn't displayed, we said it was, they said they'd accept £15 to make it stop- and it always has to be a toss-up whether it's worth the fight. A round of beers down here is £15, we decided it wasn't worth it. But if you don't dispute it they can take it to court and they don't have to prove all that much to the court now.
 

Bevan Price

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How do you/other posters in this thread feel about TOCs being allowed access to passenger name and address details, out of interest?

All ticket fraud problems should be dealt with by the police (BT or Civil).
 

Deerfold

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All ticket fraud problems should be dealt with by the police (BT or Civil).

Rather than people who (should be) experts on ticketing matters?

And if the police are busy dealing with something else do we just let the ticket fraudsters off?
 

bnm

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'Private parking penalties' is incorrect as a thread title.

These are contractual charges. They are specifically not allowed to be called penalties.
 

Hellfire

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Personally, I think that no "private" organisation should be allowed access to vehicle registration & owner details. If they want to restrict parking, use a gate or barrier, or a human being.

This is a really good point which the Honest John column in the Telegraph has been raising for years. The DVLA is selling information it holds about motorists and their vehicles to private companies without the permission of those motorists.

Many people feel this is a breach of Data Protection legislation but no one has yet taken the DVLA to court over it as far as I am aware. I stand to be corrected of course
 

bnm

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Isn't it £5 a time for the DVLA too?

Easy money.

£2.50 for the basic Registered Keeper details required to issue a Notice to Keeper. £5.00 if further information or documents is required.

Most large PPCs have an electronic link to the DVLA Registered Keeper database where there is no human oversight into each individual release of RK details. Just periodic audits and reviews.
 

swj99

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A lot of these parasitic companies want a quiet life, and they want people who will send them money. They don't want people who argue and are not willing to pay, because they aren't cost effective.
As has already been quite correctly pointed out, things like this are a numbers game. They want the easy targets, the uncontested cases. They can deal with hundreds of easy ones like this per day. Send out enough invoices, and statistically some of them will be paid. But the parasites can deal with far fewer cases where someone makes their life complicated or who writes in and asks upon what basis in law they believe the money is due, because then they have to think, and work, and spend time. Time they could use far more productively on easy cases where people roll over and say, "Oh I'm so frightened of this letter you've sent me with all legal sounding words on it. How much money shall I send you to make all of this go away ?"

It's not just parking scams either. The thing is, these organizations don't know who they're dealing with and many of them, as soon as they get any hint of a situation that's anything but straightforward, will bin the whole thing. I've had various threats of court action from insurance companies and solicitors over many years. But as soon as I've written back and said I would defend any proceedings and claim costs against them, guess what, suddenly they just give up and move onto easier pickings. Sometimes they issue proceedings to see what will happen. If you defend and / or counterclaim, they discontinue and concentrate on the easier targets. It's similar in some ways to any bully you're likely to meet. If you cringe and run away, they chase you. But if you front it out, stand your ground or hit them back, they leave you alone because they want easy targets, and they'll look for someone who doesn't put up a fight because they can make more money that way.

If you dispute something, you should always consider defending county court proceedings. If you represent yourself defending a small claim in the county court, it shouldn't cost you anything to do this . You wouldn't normally be liable for any extra costs the claimant ran up such as their legal representation on the day.

The summons the court sends out is called a Default Summons. This is because if you ignore it, the Claimant will be allowed to apply for a default judgment against you. It's fairly straightforward to defend a county court money claim, and far easier than it is to have to apply for a judgment to be set aside later. I've heard many people say they would just ignore it until they got notified of a hearing date, but if you ignore a default summons, there won't normally be a hearing, unless it's for subsequent enforcement action or unless you want to go to the trouble of applying for the judgment to be set aside.

If you believe a claimant with a questionable case has issued proceedings as a means to intimidate someone into paying, with little or no intention of actually seeing the matter through, or turning up in court on the day, you can sometimes apply for a wasted costs order against them or their solicitor. I often send a standard letter with a copy of the defence pointing out that if the defendant is put to the trouble of preparing the case for court, only for the claimant to discontinue the proceedings before the hearing date, a wasted costs order will be applied for.

I once estimated that for every 100 sets of county court proceedings I issued, 10 were initially defended on paper. 90 defendants would ignore it and I'd obtain a default judgment against them. Of the 10 who put in a paper defence, 6 would hardly constitute a proper defence anyway, and were at best, a list of reasons why the defendant didn't want to pay. The remaining 4 would often be a coherent defence, but of those 4 remaining defended claims, only 2 or 3 defendants would actually turn up on the day of the hearing.

Think of the practicalities of all this. Where is the office based where the proceedings are issued ? (and I mean the office of the company that's chasing you for money, not the court office). Because any defended county court claim against a private individual will automatically be transferred from where it was issued (either Salford or Northampton), to the defendant's local county court. And if the office that issued the claim is on the other side of the country, then someone from there will have to travel to the actual court where the case is to be heard, or they will have to instruct a local solicitor to act as their agent and conduct the case for them on the day. Bear in mind that on the small claims track, which most cases like this will be, each side pays their own costs regardless of who wins. This means that even if a defendant representing themselves loses on the day, they will only have to pay the amount of the claim, plus the fixed costs, but not any of the claimant's costs over and above this, such as the charges for their solicitor appearing on the day. All of this means that you are at an advantage as a litigant in person, and if you make it very clear you won't give up without a fight, there probably won't be a fight, because these parasites just don't have to time to waste on people who actually can be bothered to defend things like this.
Most money claim county court cases don't end up going as far as a court hearing, and because of this, many people have very little if anything to lose by defending claims.
Unless of course you're bang to rights, in which case, just pay it or do a runner to the Ecuadorian embassy, or whatever it is you have to do to evade British justice these days.

** Edited to add - If you do end up with a CCJ, it will only go on the Register of County Court Judgments if it remains unpaid for more than a month. This could then effect your credit rating for 6 years.
 
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bnm

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I once estimated that for every 100 sets of county court proceedings I issued, 10 were initially defended on paper. 90 defendants would ignore it and I'd obtain a default judgment against them. Of the 10 who put in a paper defence, 6 would hardly constitute a proper defence anyway, and were at best, a list of reasons why the defendant didn't want to pay. The remaining 4 would often be a coherent defence, but of those 4 remaining defended claims, only 2 or 3 defendants would actually turn up on the day of the hearing.

What line of business are you in that sees you issue County Court proceedings in the multiple hundreds? All those default judgements you got is a lot of people with CCJs. Sounds just like the sort of practices the PPCs are involved in. :roll:
 

Tetchytyke

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What line of business are you in that sees you issue County Court proceedings in the multiple hundreds? All those default judgements you got is a lot of people with CCJs.

I would expect that he's in specialist debt recovery. Northampton County Court is where bulk business claims or individual online claims get sent, Salford County Court is where all other individual money-only claims get sent.

To be fair, most debt recovery is almost automatic these days when you ignore your creditors. Often issuing court proceedings is often the only way to focus the minds of the debtor (and then they belatedly come to us to fix it). It's the old CAB specialist adviser in me but I'm not one for defending the debt recovery sector; most of them are not scammers (though there are more than a few who are shady), they're simply trying to recover debts that are owed.
 

richw

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I would expect that he's in specialist debt recovery. Northampton County Court is where bulk business claims or individual online claims get sent, Salford County Court is where all other individual money-only claims get sent.

To be fair, most debt recovery is almost automatic these days when you ignore your creditors. Often issuing court proceedings is often the only way to focus the minds of the debtor (and then they belatedly come to us to fix it). It's the old CAB specialist adviser in me but I'm not one for defending the debt recovery sector; most of them are not scammers (though there are more than a few who are shady), they're simply trying to recover debts that are owed.

If people cant afford them most if sent a letter detailing a break down of your incomings and outgoings will accept a small monthly payment until the balance is cleared. As an unsecured debt, they are at the bottom of the pecking order and normally wont succeed in getting a judgement if the debtor has made a reasonable offer based on their income and outgoings. Very few debt collectors verify the information so I imagine its easy to manipulate your figures to suit you leaving say £5 a month to pay to the unsecured debt collector
 

swj99

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What line of business are you in that sees you issue County Court proceedings in the multiple hundreds?........
I did some of my legal training in the litigation department of a local authority.
 

ainsworth74

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If people cant afford them most if sent a letter detailing a break down of your incomings and outgoings will accept a small monthly payment until the balance is cleared.

Making references that you may have to get a Debt Relief Order or file for Bankruptcy if your creditors don't accept token offers can also work wonders in getting those offers accepted.
 

richw

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Another thing to bare in mind that if the original creditor "Sells" the debt to a collection company, the collection company normally pay around 15-25% of the debt value to buy it, and are often open to offers over 50% of the debt, so they've doubled their money. You will also find if the original creditor is due to sell the debt they may accept a reasonable full and final offer if it means making more money than the 20% or so they will sell it for.
 

Tetchytyke

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You will get a CCJ if you owe the money. That's a matter of fact not affordability.

The payment terms of that CCJ will depend on your income and expenditure.

Generally creditors seek CCJs where someone owns a house. If you default on a CCJ the creditor can get a charging order which does make the debt secured.

It's totally off topic, but token offers are usually a waste of time these days. If you've a low income, no assets and small debts then a Debt Relief Order is your best bet, if you've a higher income, assets or big debts then an IVA is your best bet. Both options need the debtor to pull their head out of the sand though, which often only happens once a CCJ is in place.
 
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Carlisle

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Will it be sometime this week that we will find out if the parking companies have won or lost this test case ? Hope it doesn't turn out like the case a few years ago regarding bank charges that many hoped were going to be declared illegal but in the end weren't
 
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Bald Rick

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It can apply to any sort of parking on private land. Overstay by an hour in a paid car park? The loss is the cost of one hours parking, not £60, £80, £100...

Yes, but, a private parking company can not demonstrate loss if parking is free. They can demonstrate loss if it is paid for, even if it is a token charge. They can then argue that the rest of the fee represents their costs etc.

So for free parking, you will always win. For overstaying paid parking, it is not so clear cut.
 

bnm

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Yes, but, a private parking company can not demonstrate loss if parking is free. They can demonstrate loss if it is paid for, even if it is a token charge. They can then argue that the rest of the fee represents their costs etc.

So for free parking, you will always win. For overstaying paid parking, it is not so clear cut.

Actual loss. That's it. Nothing more. No costs.

And even then it is the landowners loss. Not the company managing the parking.
 

swj99

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You will get a CCJ if you owe the money....
You will get a CCJ if the court decides you owe the money, or if you fail to respond to the summons and the claimant applies for and obtains a default judgment against you.

The payment terms of that CCJ will depend on your income and expenditure.
Correct.

Also worth bearing in mind, you cannot be imprisoned for non payment of a county court judgment debt, even if a court has ordered you to pay a certain amount each week / month, or forthwith.

On the subject of selling debts, if this is done prior to a court judgment being obtained, the purchaser of the debt is taking a gamble that the money is actually recoverable. I'm sure most people are familiar with the phrase, 'you can't get blood out of a stone'. One of the difficulties of buying debt and attempting to obtain payment through the court is that it can be difficult to prove the money is actually due, unless the person or company who sold it provided, or is able to provide adequate evidence to enable a judgment to be obtained. Finance company (consumer credit act) debts which have been sold on can be difficult to progress because of the lack of evidence that the debt existed.
There are plenty of people who literally don't care if you obtain a ccj against them, and many of them arrange their lives and their finances so that's virtually impossible to take money off them.

Enforcement

Civil debt is not a criminal offence in this country, and you cannot usually be imprisoned for not paying a county court judgment, however there are limited occasions when it is possible to end up in a cell, unless you know the pitfalls.
A Claimant can spend a significant amount of money pursuing the original debt, with no guarantee of actually getting paid. The same could be said of getting debt collectors involved.

Here is a list of the various methods of enforcement available to Judgment Creditors (ie successful claimants) in the County and High Courts.

Order to obtain information from a judgment debtor

A Claimant can find out information about the financial circumstances of the judgment debtor. The court will order the debtor to come to court so they can give details regarding their finances. They might be asked about any paid employment, assets, property etc, bank accounts (account numbers, addresses etc). The court can’t do very much if a debtor doesn’t turn up for this.
If a debtor fails to appear, the Claimant can pay a fee for bailiff service of a summons ordering the debtor to attend. This is because the summons will have a penal notice attached, which means if the debtor fails to appear again, they can be committed to prison for contempt of court, so obviously the court needs to be satisfied that the debtor is aware of the need for their attendance, and of what will happen if they don’t attend. Once a debtor has been served with the summons, the bailiff will swear an affidavit of service and file this with the court. Regardless of whether the judgment debtor goes to the first or second appointment, the Claimant, or their representative, is only asking questions because they don’t already know the answers or have sufficient details about the debtor's finances to decide how to obtain payment from them. I have known cases where judgment debtors have made perfectly legal changes to their situations in order to put themselves into a position where the Claimant was unable to obtain money from them.

Warrant of Execution

The bailiff visits the home of the judgment debtor and seizes ‘goods to the value of’. That’s the theory. In practice the goods actually have to belong to the judgment debtor, and in many cases, for example if the judgment debtor was just a lodger, almost all of the items in the property belonged to the landlord anyway. Even if a judgment debtor did have possessions in their home, bailiffs sometimes report back to the court that there were insufficient goods to cover the cost of removal and sale and the Claimant is back to square one, minus another court fee.

Attachment of Earnings Order

The judgment debtor’s employer (assuming the debtor is employed, and tells the Claimant who their employer is) is ordered to pay an amount directly to the Claimant, subject to a ‘protected earnings limit’. The suitability of this one depends on the circumstances of the judgment debtor. I’ve known cases where people who knew what was coming simply gave up or changed their job to avoid having their wages docked by an attachment of earnings order. In the case of temporary employment or a fixed term contract, and bearing in mind how slowly the county court system sometimes works, it is occasionally the case that by the time an attachment of earnings order is processed and sent to an employer, the contract is over, the employee has been paid, has moved on, and it’s too late. If this happens, the Claimant is likely to have wasted another court fee.

Charging Order

This means that the value of the judgment debt is made subject to a legal charge (similar to a mortgage) against the judgment debtor’s equity in a property (if they have any). The Claimant gets paid out of the proceeds of eventual sale. This only works if the judgment debtor actually has a registered legal interest in the property. When a charging order is contemplated by a Claimant, their solicitor would normally do a Land Registry search to confirm ownership details in advance of making an application to the court. I remember a case where a judgment debtor guessed that the Claimant’s next move would probably be an application for a Charging Order. In fact, a land registry search had already confirmed the judgment debtor’s property was in joint names. But by the time the application to the court was made, it was already too late, because the judgment debtor had transferred the property into his wife's sole name, so the charging order couldn’t go ahead.

Third Party Debt Order

The debtor’s bank is ordered to pay the Claimant out of the debtor’s bank account. This only works if there are sufficient funds in the account.
According to the Civil Procedure Rules, ‘bank or building society’ includes any person carrying on a business in the course of which he lawfully accepts deposits in the United Kingdom, however this conflicts with what District Judges have sometimes suggested, when they have said a bank has to have its registered office in England or Wales. Obviously this would be complicated if a debtor has offshore accounts, or an account with RBS, whose registered office is in Scotland. It might be in the UK, but it’s not technically in England or Wales. Judges sometimes pick up on this and refuse applications for TPDOs. RBS does have an office in London and the last time I asked, they said they process hundreds of orders per year, and have an address in London for use with such applications.
When an application is made for a Third Party Debt Order, the court will first order the debtor’s bank to freeze the relevant account to prevent the debtor from removing funds to defeat the purpose of the order. The debtor is only notified about this once the account has been frozen. Obviously, this only works if there is enough money in the account to satisfy the judgment debt, at the time the account is frozen.

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Antman

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A couple years ago ignoring was good advice as they rarely took court action. Parking Pie likes to do court, mostly they lose with a good defence, but sometimes they win due to the judge not being wised to the scam.

A camera on a pole isn't car park management, you could go into the car park and do doughnuts for an hour and exit (unlikely but the CCTV camera won't know anything.)

I thought the case for wheelclamps was that many people ignore parking tickets and they never get paid?
 

Tetchytyke

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You will get a CCJ if the court decides you owe the money, or if you fail to respond to the summons and the claimant applies for and obtains a default judgment against you.

True.

My point was more that "I can't afford it" is not a defence to a CCJ, it is just a negotiation as to the terms of that CCJ.

There are plenty of people who literally don't care if you obtain a ccj against them, and many of them arrange their lives and their finances so that's virtually impossible to take money off them.

Indeed, which is why in my experience creditors normally only take county court action where they know there is a realisable asset, usually the house.

I'm just glad the tactic of issuing a Statutory Demand (for bankruptcy) seems to have mostly died off, with the notable exception of the charmers at Northumbrian Water and in Council Tax collections.

I thought the case for wheelclamps was that many people ignore parking tickets and they never get paid?

Clamping was outlawed; the pay-off for that is that the Registered Keeper is now liable for parking charged incurred.
 

Antman

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True.

My point was more that "I can't afford it" is not a defence to a CCJ, it is just a negotiation as to the terms of that CCJ.



Indeed, which is why in my experience creditors normally only take county court action where they know there is a realisable asset, usually the house.

I'm just glad the tactic of issuing a Statutory Demand (for bankruptcy) seems to have mostly died off, with the notable exception of the charmers at Northumbrian Water and in Council Tax collections.



Clamping was outlawed; the pay-off for that is that the Registered Keeper is now liable for parking charged incurred.

I know but many registered keepers don't pay
 

Tetchytyke

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I know but many registered keepers don't pay

That comes down to whether the registered keeper cares about a CCJ, should the car parking firm decide to pursue court action. Ignoring the parking company is a very dangerous tactic.

Many people with CCJs don't care about the CCJ, right up until the moment a bailiff comes and threatens to tow their car away if they don't pay up.

You can't ask the DVLA if a specific person is the registered keeper of a car (so if it's a non-car-related debt it's not that hard to hide a car). But you can ask who the registered keeper of a car is. If you know who owns the car, what the registration of the car is and where they live it's a lot easier to get a bailiff to enforce the debt.
 

Carlisle

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I know but many registered keepers don't pay

A simple parking overstay offence using ANPR technology is probably fairly cheap and straightforward for the company to prove in court , however offences like leaving site etc are perhaps a bit more difficult and may be more likely to be eventually binned
 
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jon0844

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I just got charged £5 for parking in a car park I've not been to. It was following an enquiry about another car park (same operator, on behalf of the council) where I'd not been charged despite being set up to pay automatically (it's an ANPR car park).

What's interesting is that I set up auto pay for a specific car park (you have to do this for every car park individually, using tick boxes once you've entered your vehicle and payment details) and yet I've been charged for supposedly parking elsewhere.

Maybe that's better than getting a penalty by post, but it's a bit dodgy. I've asked for a photo as it would be more serious if it turns out someone has cloned our plate!
 

Kite159

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A simple parking overstay offence using ANPR technology is probably fairly cheap and straightforward for the company to prove in court , however offences like leaving site etc are perhaps a bit more difficult and may be more likely to be eventually binned

Until you go in front of a judge who decides that time spent looking for a space or leaving the carpark doesn't count towards the "x hours free".

I can imagine the fun if an ANPR is fitted at Salisbury Tesco, hit it at the wrong time and you can easily spend 30+ minutes trying to leave the car park to get onto the A36.
 
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