Priv: validity?

[Johnnie2Sheds]

Hello all, Had a ride out on 7/12 and decided to bust my class 180 virginity. (!!) Must say I liked it, but then, they are Hydraulics. However, the Conductor on the Grand Central train informed me that my Priv. was not "strictly valid" and in future that I should go to the Conductor before boarding one of their trains.(Indicating to me that I'm NOT valid but subject to the Conductors whim?) OK I've had this before with South Eastern and their Javelins. One con. telling me Im not valid another saying I am. Gate staff letting me out without a second glance. I should point out that none of 'em excessed me. I know I'm an old fart but its gettin a bit confusing. My boxes have 12 "key" endorsements, Im not going to list them but I would have thought that Grand Central/South Eastern would have got a mention over and above "Caledonian MacBrayne" (No offense to those in Scotland.) Is there anyone out there who can explain this to me? Are these staff members trying it on? Why? I earnt these flippin boxes.

 

[Haywain]

The conductor on Grand Central was quite right. Your boxes are not valid for free travel on their services, and priv rate travel is also barred, although GC are known to generally accept tickets routed 'Any Permitted' with a priv discount. You can find this detailed on the Rail Staff Travel website. On Southeastern there have been some restrictions on the use of staff travel facilities on High Speed services in the past, although there are none at present.

 

[455driver]

You earnt those boxes on BR, Grand Central was never a part of BR.

Grand Central are an open access operator (a Private operator if you prefer) and are not part of the (ex BR) Priv scheme, Hull trains was an open access operator but was then bought out by First Group and so got lumped in with the other First group operated franchises.

The Javelin is also a pseudo 'special' train and privs are not valid on them, the normal South Eastern Trains services are part of the scheme though.

 

[Ralph Ayres]

Your Personnel/HR people should really keep you updated on what restrictions apply, given how seriously misuse of Priv facilities is treated. As a starting point though, see http://www.atoc.org/about-atoc/rail-staff-travel/restrictions/.

 

[DaveNewcastle]

The other posters to this thread are quite correct, and I have nothing to add to their explanations and advice.

But I do want to take this opportunity to make an observation:- there are many knowledgeable people on here, willing to share their specialist knowledge with passengers who find the complexity of rail travel a puzzle. It can be very confusing for the occasional passenger.
But it speaks volumes when an experienced railway worker such as Johnnie2Sheds, who has more specialist understanding of trains than the average passenger (referring to Cl180s as hydraulics), is also misled by the fragmentation following more than a decade of privitisation and the pseudo-coherence of autonomous railway operators.

I'm not surprised that Johnnie2Sheds would expect a priv to be valid on any mainline service any more than any novice passenger expecting their ticket to be valid which, on the face of it, appears to be good for travel.

 

[yorkie]

Grand Central guards have previously stated on here that a ticket routed "Any Permitted" along the line of route is, as far as they are concerned, valid for travel, as per NRCoC Condition 10. I think that is a sensible and reasonable interpretation. That said, there is no guarantee that all GC guards will share that view!

But, of course, using a PRIV box is a rather different matter.

 

[CyrusWuff]

Grand Central are an open access operator (a Private operator if you prefer) and are not part of the (ex BR) Priv scheme, Hull trains was an open access operator but was then bought out by First Group and so got lumped in with the other First group operated franchises.

It should be noted that staff employed by Arriva Trains Wales, Chiltern, CrossCountry, London Overground and Tyne & Wear Metro do qualify for (non-contractual) free travel on Grand Central upon presentation of the relevant staff pass, as opposed to their Staff Travel Card/PRIV Card.

The Javelin is also a pseudo 'special' train and privs are not valid on them, the normal South Eastern Trains services are part of the scheme though.

Au contraire. Boxes, residential passes, PRIV seasons with an appropriate routeing and relevant status passes are valid on HS1, and PRIV discounts are available in the normal manner, though they initially had time restrictions.

From The Manual:

Rail Staff and Privilege Travel

Staff Passes (safeguarded boxes), Go Ahead Staff Travel Passes, residential and PRIV rate (including PRIV seasons routed ‘PLUS HIGH SPEED’) are valid for travel on all High Speed services.

Southern Region ‘Blue’ passes are valid on High Speed.

Holders of Gold Status Passes (active staff, retired staff and their dependants) are reminded that they should surrender their seats in favour of fare-paying passengers – as indeed should all users of staff travel facilities at any time.

Other TOC specific staff passes (including Eurostar) are not valid on High Speed at any time.

Privilege discounted upgrades can be issued (including for Privilege seasons routed ‘Not High Speed’).

The arrangements for duty travel for Freight Companies arrangements for DB Schenker/EWS, Direct Rail Services (DRS), First GB Railfreight, Freightliner and Serco drivers do apply on High Speed services, allowing travel to/from St Pancras.

 

[SickyNicky]

The Javelin is also a pseudo 'special' train and privs are not valid on them

Are you sure about this? There is no mention of them or HS1 in the staff travel restrictions.

Edit: beaten to it

 

[yorkie]

Possibly the special Olympic Javelin service or the special preview service may have had restrictions.

The standard, current HS1 service is not actually known as Javelin service, and is a normal train like any other (though SET apparently don't like people travelling on their 'shiny new trains' for less than whatever high price they want people to pay!) - that was just a silly name given for the shuttle service during the Olympics, which some rail enthusiasts have used to nickname the 395 units (as nearly all units have a nickname, and that seems to have stuck).

 

[455driver]

I had had similar issues using a Priv on them (a long time ago) and was told that Privs were not valid on HS1 unless the ticket held was specifically routed +HS1.

I had just stuck to that and was just trying to keep things simple but obviously (and not aiming this at anyone in particular just in case anyone throws their teddy out) this thread will now descend into the normal "but this and that are valid when travelling to some place but not when travelling to another closer place when there is an R in the month" etc just like every other validity thread.

 

[yorkie]

I had had similar issues using a Priv on them (a long time ago) and was told that Privs were not valid on HS1 unless the ticket held was specifically routed +HS1.

That may have been the early preview service?

I had just stuck to that and was just trying to keep things simple but obviously (and not aiming this at anyone in particular just in case anyone throws their teddy out) this thread will now descend into the normal "but this and that are valid when travelling to some place but not when travelling to another closer place when there is an R in the month" etc just like every other validity thread.

I don't agree that the thread would be descending if the full validity details were advised. If the restrictions for railway ticketing are too complex, that is the fault of the people who make decisions which affect the complexity

However I am sure you will agree that complexity must only be reduced if it does not have the side effects of either a reduction in our rights, or an increase in prices, and that's the tricky part...

 

[455driver]

It may well have been the preview service.

The rest of that post can be deleted as it isnt really relevant to anything.

 

[hairyhandedfool]

It should be noted that staff employed by Arriva Trains Wales, Chiltern, CrossCountry, London Overground and Tyne & Wear Metro do qualify for (non-contractual) free travel on Grand Central upon presentation of the relevant staff pass, as opposed to their Staff Travel Card/PRIV Card....

And Northern Rail.

 

[Aictos]

The Javelin is also a pseudo 'special' train and privs are not valid on them, the normal South Eastern Trains services are part of the scheme though.

That's amusing that Priv's aren't valid on HS1... I've used these tickets a few times on HS1 and they're perfectly valid

As far as I'm aware there's no restrictions on priv users on the HS1 services at all.

As to the OP, you might well have priv but isn't it a tad cheeky to just jump on and not ask the guard before boarding?

 

[CyrusWuff]

As to the OP, you might well have priv but isn't it a tad cheeky to just jump on and not ask the guard before boarding?

Perfectly fine on Grand Central, as they sell the full range of tickets on board...Though may not have resulted in the answer the OP wanted to hear (namely that it'd cost £x for his/her journey!).

 

[455driver]

That's amusing that Priv's aren't valid on HS1... I've used these tickets a few times on HS1 and they're perfectly valid

Aparantly they are now but werent back then.

As far as I'm aware there's no restrictions on priv users on the HS1 services at all.

I might go for another ride at some stage, I am ready to be underwhelmed!

As to the OP, you might well have priv but isn't it a tad cheeky to just jump on and not ask the guard before boarding?

When he boarded he didnt realise it wasnt valid so why would he think to ask?
I am sure the OP will ask in future.

 

[Ploughman]

They were valid wnen I used HS1 St P to Ashford earlier in the year as I especially checked with the Guard / Inspector on the train

 

[RJ]

I travel to and from work on HS1 - got a Priv season ticket and have used SDS' from time to time. Although the Priv time restrictions on HS1 have been removed, I recently found out that the St Pancras barriers haven't been updated to this effect - I got a Seek Assistance code 108 from the barriers!

 

[Johnnie2Sheds]

Thanks VM for all the replies folks. I'm still confused though. If I am not valid on Grand Central, which is fair enough, they are a small, and from what I saw last Sunday PM*, badly organised, player, then why is this company not included on the endorsements on the boxes over and above some flippin steam packet? If I had known I would have either coughed up or avoided them. I would rather not have gone through the lecture, even though it was delivered in a friendly courtious manner by the conductor, in front of a coach full of people. I'd also like to say, I am NOT cheeky with these boxes, just to remove any doubt. They are worth a considerable amount to me and I'm not about to jeperdise my authority to use them.

* Kings Cross last sunday was absolute Bedlam, The 15:44 GC(from memory) was almost double booked, police in attendence, hadn't left by 1705. Lots of deep joy all around.

 

[hairyhandedfool]

....If I am not valid on Grand Central, which is fair enough, they are a small, and from what I saw last Sunday PM*, badly organised, player, then why is this company not included on the endorsements on the boxes over and above some flippin steam packet?.....

I don't know on what basis the steam packet is included (former BR operation????), and as I don't work for GC I'm not entirely sure what agreements they have in place, but afaik, GC employees do not get Priv or Boxes, so there is no incentive to allow priv or boxes (officially) on their services.

 

[Haywain]

Thanks VM for all the replies folks. I'm still confused though. If I am not valid on Grand Central, which is fair enough, they are a small, and from what I saw last Sunday PM*, badly organised, player, then why is this company not included on the endorsements on the boxes over and above some flippin steam packet?

They are not included because the endorsement are to distinguish where some holders will be valid and others not. As no priv is valid on Grand Central there is no need for an endorsement.

 

[reb0118]

My boxes have 12 "key" endorsements, Im not going to list them but I would have thought that Grand Central/South Eastern would have got a mention over and above "Caledonian MacBrayne" (No offense to those in Scotland.)

None taken. But I might take offence at...............

then why is this company not included on the endorsements on the boxes over and above some flippin steam packet

I'm sure Captain McPugwash would ram you with his wee vessel if he could find you!

The endorsements on the back of your boxes only apply to undertakings that were once part of British Rail but have been hived of over the years. Depending on your start date you may still have residual rights on these undertakings ~ not every safeguarded member has. E.g the local railways in Newcastle were converted to Tyne & Wear metro in the eighties if you were employed by BR before the conversion then you retain travel benefits on the Tyne & Wear system. If you were employed by BR after the split you get no benefits (no need to mention the Sunderland section as it is not germane to this discussion) and your box card will be endorsed. This is to let revenue staff know whether you are entitled or not.

Grand Central were never part of BR and with the exception of some private reciprocal agreements with other TOCs offer no staff travel benefits to other companies staff ~ therefore no need to endorse your box card.

This may help esp. section 4

 

[nomis1066]

Hello all, Had a ride out on 7/12 and decided to bust my class 180 virginity. (!!) Must say I liked it, but then, they are Hydraulics. However, the Conductor on the Grand Central train informed me that my Priv. was not "strictly valid" and in future that I should go to the Conductor before boarding one of their trains.(Indicating to me that I'm NOT valid but subject to the Conductors whim?) OK I've had this before with South Eastern and their Javelins. One con. telling me Im not valid another saying I am. Gate staff letting me out without a second glance. I should point out that none of 'em excessed me. I know I'm an old fart but its gettin a bit confusing. My boxes have 12 "key" endorsements, Im not going to list them but I would have thought that Grand Central/South Eastern would have got a mention over and above "Caledonian MacBrayne" (No offense to those in Scotland.) Is there anyone out there who can explain this to me? Are these staff members trying it on? Why? I earnt these flippin boxes.

Been a little while but I found Grand Central were happy for me to scrounge a ride if I asked before hand and if their train wasn't busy. Hull Trains had some restrictions but they were also fine if I asked and they weren't busy.

The privs shambles has been allowed to fester for far too long - if you work in the rail industry then you should get privs - end of.

And re 180s - I know they've had reliability issues but I always got from A to B on them with no major hitches - and for comfort there is very little out there to rival them.