Priv fares: SLO to CUS

[paulravuslante]

Sorry if already been asked but there seems to be an issue when trying to buy a priv fare from Slough to Custom House.

You can’t purchase a through ticket between the two stations, yet it is possible to buy two separate tickets SLO - PAD and PAD - CUS.

Any ideas why there are no through fares?

 

[Watershed]

What kind of Priv facility do you hold - I'm guessing non-safeguarded (i.e. you joined the railway after 1996)? Do you get any TfL facilities through your TOC (e.g. if you work for Eurostar, GTR or LNER)?

If so, the issue starts with the fact that TfL consider the Elizabeth line 'core' section between Paddington and Abbey Wood/Stratford equivalent to an Underground line for ticketing purposes. They therefore didn't create point to point fares to/from the new stations, such as Custom House, when this section opened.

TfL want people who travel on the 'core' to either use PAYG/Travelcards, or else to buy a ticket to/from the relevant Underground Zones (1-3 in your case).

The problem is that non-SG staff can't get a discount on fares to/from Underground Zones. This is intentional, since their facilities aren't valid on Underground or DLR services unless it's as part of a cross-London transfer between National Rail services either side of London (indicated by the "Maltese cross" on the ticket).

To allow non-SG staff to get a discount on Elizabeth line 'core' journeys (since the Elizabeth line is still a National Rail service, despite the TfL branding) TfL's workaround was to create a flat Priv fare that is only valid for journeys within the Elizabeth line 'core'.

Obviously, this doesn't particularly help you if you're travelling beyond the 'core'. Given that all Elizabeth line trains do this at one (or both) sides of the 'core' this doesn't seem particularly well thought through...

One possible option in this situation would be to buy a ticket for a longer journey than what you're actually making, e.g. Slough to Abbey Wood. This would then give you the full Priv discount and allow you to make a cross-London transfer (from Paddington to Abbey Wood) using the Elizabeth line.

You are explicitly allowed to break a cross-London transfer at an intermediate station (e.g. Custom House if travelling from Paddington to Abbey Wood). If you're using the Tube or DLR then the rules say you can't recommence your transfer having stopped off intermediately - but there is nothing to say that this rule applies on the Elizabeth line.

Unfortunately, in practice, I've had difficulty even exercising the first right (stopping short) which is clearly defined, so trying to start late may be "interesting" to say the least. You may find it's less hassle to use PAYG on an Oyster card for the Elizabeth line part of your journey, and to buy a regular ticket for the remainder of your journey.

You can get your Priv discount applied to your Oyster card (for journeys that only involve National Rail services) at a list of specific Elizabeth line stations, including West Drayton between 10am and 3pm on weekdays and Saturdays. Bizarrely, you can't do this at 'core' stations...

 

[paulravuslante]

What kind of Priv facility do you hold - I'm guessing non-safeguarded (i.e. you joined the railway after 1996)? Do you get any TfL facilities through your TOC (e.g. if you work for Eurostar, GTR or LNER)?

If so, the issue starts with the fact that TfL consider the Elizabeth line 'core' section between Paddington and Abbey Wood/Stratford equivalent to an Underground line for ticketing purposes. They therefore didn't create point to point fares to/from the new stations, such as Custom House, when this section opened.

TfL want people who travel on the 'core' to either use PAYG/Travelcards, or else to buy a ticket to/from the relevant Underground Zones (1-3 in your case).

The problem is that non-SG staff can't get a discount on fares to/from Underground Zones. This is intentional, since their facilities aren't valid on Underground or DLR services unless it's as part of a cross-London transfer between National Rail services either side of London (indicated by the "Maltese cross" on the ticket).

To allow non-SG staff to get a discount on Elizabeth line 'core' journeys (since the Elizabeth line is still a National Rail service, despite the TfL branding) TfL's workaround was to create a flat Priv fare that is only valid for journeys within the Elizabeth line 'core'.

Obviously, this doesn't particularly help you if you're travelling beyond the 'core'. Given that all Elizabeth line trains do this at one (or both) sides of the 'core' this doesn't seem particularly well thought through...

One possible option in this situation would be to buy a ticket for a longer journey than what you're actually making, e.g. Slough to Abbey Wood. This would then give you the full Priv discount and allow you to make a cross-London transfer (from Paddington to Abbey Wood) using the Elizabeth line.

You are explicitly allowed to break a cross-London transfer at an intermediate station (e.g. Custom House if travelling from Paddington to Abbey Wood). If you're using the Tube or DLR then the rules say you can't recommence your transfer having stopped off intermediately - but there is nothing to say that this rule applies on the Elizabeth line.

Unfortunately, in practice, I've had difficulty even exercising the first right (stopping short) which is clearly defined, so trying to start late may be "interesting" to say the least. You may find it's less hassle to use PAYG on an Oyster card for the Elizabeth line part of your journey, and to buy a regular ticket for the remainder of your journey.

You can get your Priv discount applied to your Oyster card (for journeys that only involve National Rail services) at a list of specific Elizabeth line stations, including West Drayton between 10am and 3pm on weekdays and Saturdays. Bizarrely, you can't do this at 'core' stations...

Thanks for the comprehensive reply.

I was asking on behalf of someone else who does indeed have non-safeguarded facilities for NR and no TfL specific benefits. They have recently moved to Slough but still have family at Custom House to visit. They have also applied priv discount to an Oyster card.

They had asked at Slough station for a journey option but they staff there had no idea why no fare was available for that journey.

On thinking about the options for the journey I came up with the following possibilities:
1. Buy a ticket from SLO to WDT, exit and then touch in with priv Oyster to resume the journey on the subsequent train (risky given the level of disruption on the Liz line)!
2. Buy a ticket from SLO to PAD but remain on the Elizabeth line to Farringdon, head upstairs to touch in with priv Oyster at the pad within the station (risky again as technically you wouldn’t have a valid ticket for part of the journey.
3. Buy two tickets (as I described in my initial post).

Re breaking journey with a ticket for a longer journey, I had ruled this out because of the information on this page under the Elizabeth line section dated 16th November 2022: https://www.raildeliverygroup.com/rst/stop-press.html

 

[Watershed]

Thanks for the comprehensive reply.

I was asking on behalf of someone else who does indeed have non-safeguarded facilities for NR and no TfL specific benefits. They have recently moved to Slough but still have family at Custom House to visit. They have also applied priv discount to an Oyster card.

Great stuff - they have done the "hard" part already.

They had asked at Slough station for a journey option but they staff there had no idea why no fare was available for that journey.

Yes, unfortunately it's not at all obvious to most people why you can't just buy a simple point to point fares. You'd have needed to read the bulletin that came out at the time of the core section's opening, and still remember it, to know the background.

On thinking about the options for the journey I came up with the following possibilities:
1. Buy a ticket from SLO to WDT, exit and then touch in with priv Oyster to resume the journey on the subsequent train (risky given the level of disruption on the Liz line)!

Yes, that's probably the best option if they want to maximise the discount. This would cost a total of £3.30 for a return journey, if travelling at times when Off-Peak fares apply (i.e. weekends, or on weekdays leaving Slough 09:30 or later, and touching in at West Drayton between 09:30-16:00 or after 19:00).

2. Buy a ticket from SLO to PAD but remain on the Elizabeth line to Farringdon, head upstairs to touch in with priv Oyster at the pad within the station (risky again as technically you wouldn’t have a valid ticket for part of the journey.

I would not suggest this under any circumstances. They would be travelling without a valid ticket from Paddington (PAD) to Farringdon (ZFD) - there's no "technically" about it. Overtravelling is possibly more serious than not having a ticket at all, since it demonstrates clear intent to avoid payment of the fare.

If caught without a valid ticket they would not only receive a Penalty Fare or be prosecuted, but could also lose their staff travel facilities. There might also be disciplinary implications with their employer.

Instead I would suggest exiting the barriers using the SLO to PAD ticket and touching back in at PAD if they want to do this. The fare is the same since PAD and ZFD are both in zone 1, and it avoids any risk of getting involved in a ticketing irregularity.

It's also it's an easier option, since there are only a few steps or a short escalator to the gateline, whereas at Farringdon you have to negotiate a long escalator to get to the validators.

In fact, if they're well positioned (the front of coach 2, back of coach 3, or the middle of coach 7 at PAD for quick access to the escalators) they might even manage to get back on the same train. Many Elizabeth line services have a longer 1.5 or 2 minute dwell at PAD, sometimes increased by unused engineering or performance allowances, so I've managed to touch in/out at a PAD stop and jump back on the same train.

The frequency from PAD (or indeed Hayes & Harlington/Ealing Broadway etc.) to ABW is higher than from West Drayton, since you can step back onto a Heathrow Terminal 4/5 starter. At off-peak times, that would normally mean waiting a maximum of 7 or 8 minutes.

3. Buy two tickets (as I described in my initial post).

That would be the other option, and the only one that avoid changing train (apart from using contactless at public rate), although it does cost more.

Re breaking journey with a ticket for a longer journey, I had ruled this out because of the information on this page under the Elizabeth line section dated 16th November 2022: https://www.raildeliverygroup.com/rst/stop-press.html

There's nothing in the NRCoT which backs this up - it's merely a summary of how TfL would like it to work, rather than the actual contractual position. That said, I can understand your acquaintance might not have the appetite for a "discussion" with the gateline staff.

 

[paulravuslante]

Great stuff - they have done the "hard" part already.


Yes, unfortunately it's not at all obvious to most people why you can't just buy a simple point to point fares. You'd have needed to read the bulletin that came out at the time of the core section's opening, and still remember it, to know the background.


Yes, that's probably the best option if they want to maximise the discount. This would cost a total of £3.30 for a return journey, if travelling at times when Off-Peak fares apply (i.e. weekends, or on weekdays leaving Slough 09:30 or later, and touching in at West Drayton between 09:30-16:00 or after 19:00).


I would not suggest this under any circumstances. They would be travelling without a valid ticket from Paddington (PAD) to Farringdon (ZFD) - there's no "technically" about it. Overtravelling is possibly more serious than not having a ticket at all, since it demonstrates clear intent to avoid payment of the fare.

If caught without a valid ticket they would not only receive a Penalty Fare or be prosecuted, but could also lose their staff travel facilities. There might also be disciplinary implications with their employer.

Instead I would suggest exiting the barriers using the SLO to PAD ticket and touching back in at PAD if they want to do this. The fare is the same since PAD and ZFD are both in zone 1, and it avoids any risk of getting involved in a ticketing irregularity.

It's also it's an easier option, since there are only a few steps or a short escalator to the gateline, whereas at Farringdon you have to negotiate a long escalator to get to the validators.

In fact, if they're well positioned (the front of coach 2, back of coach 3, or the middle of coach 7 at PAD for quick access to the escalators) they might even manage to get back on the same train. Many Elizabeth line services have a longer 1.5 or 2 minute dwell at PAD, sometimes increased by unused engineering or performance allowances, so I've managed to touch in/out at a PAD stop and jump back on the same train.

The frequency from PAD (or indeed Hayes & Harlington/Ealing Broadway etc.) to ABW is higher than from West Drayton, since you can step back onto a Heathrow Terminal 4/5 starter. At off-peak times, that would normally mean waiting a maximum of 7 or 8 minutes.


That would be the other option, and the only one that avoid changing train (apart from using contactless at public rate), although it does cost more.


There's nothing in the NRCoT which backs this up - it's merely a summary of how TfL would like it to work, rather than the actual contractual position. That said, I can understand your acquaintance might not have the appetite for a "discussion" with the gateline staff.

Great, thanks again for the insight.