Prisoners Voting

[HST Power]

We've probably done this one before at some point in the past, but I was shocked to discover that the Government no longer have the option of voting against prisoners receiving the right to vote full stop?

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-20667357

From what I've heard, they have to vote to give all prisoners or some prisoners the vote. However, voting to keep in the ban is place has been blocked by the ECHR.

So can we safely presume then that prisoners will in fact be voting?

 

[Eagle]

So can we safely presume then that prisoners will in fact be voting?

It's only prisoners who are in jail for less than five years. (That is, those who would have voted had they been sentenced at a different point in the election calendar.)

For the record, I'm in support of suffrage for short-term prisoners. I don't see why people should be blocked from voting just because they're serving a couple of months either side of an election, for instance. Prisoners are humans too, although a lot of people in this country would like to dispute that for some perverse reason.

 

[Oswyntail]

.... I don't see why people should be blocked from voting just because they're serving a couple of months either side of an election, for instance. Prisoners are humans too, although a lot of people in this country would like to dispute that for some perverse reason.

I would suggest that the thinking is, if you have broken the rules of the society you live in, you are taken out of that society for as long as necessary. Part of being "in" society is the right to vote.

 

[Eagle]

I would suggest that the thinking is, if you have broken the rules of the society you live in, you are taken out of that society for as long as necessary. Part of being "in" society is the right to vote.

That argument is such a slippery slope. It could be used to deny so many basic rights to prisoners.

Part of being in society is human contact. Ergo all prisoners should be in solitary.
Part of being in society is proper sanitation. Ergo all prisoners should only use the bucket.
Part of being in society is having a place to live. Ergo all prisoners will sleep in the yard.
And so on.

My point is that we're only considering people doing short spells, who have been convicted of lesser offences. And for those people IMO the point of prison is lesson-learning and rehabilitation, making sure they don't reoffend, rather than taking them out of society as punishment for punishment's sake or whatever. A point that often seems to be missed by many.

(Though for longer sentences that argument doesn't apply as much; the point of longer sentences is often either because they're a danger to society, or as a deterrent.)

 

[Kneedown]

I'm of the opinion that if you abuse the society you live in to the extent that you end up inside, then why should you have the right to influence it? Certainly until such time as you are deemed reformed enough to re-enter and participate positively in that society.

 

[Thumper Bill]

It's only prisoners who are in jail for less than five years. (That is, those who would have voted had they been sentenced at a different point in the election calendar.)

For the record, I'm in support of suffrage for short-term prisoners. I don't see why people should be blocked from voting just because they're serving a couple of months either side of an election, for instance. Prisoners are humans too, although a lot of people in this country would like to dispute that for some perverse reason.

Would you be so nice about prisoners if, God forbid, one of them had robbed your house, stole your car or mugged you mum?

 

[Eagle]

Would you be so nice about prisoners if, God forbid, one of them had robbed your house, stole your car or mugged you mum?

Unequivocally, yes. They're still human.

(And before you ask, all three of those things have happened to me.)

 

[SS4]

That argument is such a slippery slope. It could be used to deny so many basic rights to prisoners.

Part of being in society is human contact. Ergo all prisoners should be in solitary.
Part of being in society is proper sanitation. Ergo all prisoners should only use the bucket.
Part of being in society is having a place to live. Ergo all prisoners will sleep in the yard.
And so on.

My point is that we're only considering people doing short spells, who have been convicted of lesser offences. And for those people IMO the point of prison is lesson-learning and rehabilitation, making sure they don't reoffend, rather than taking them out of society as punishment for punishment's sake or whatever. A point that often seems to be missed by many.

(Though for longer sentences that argument doesn't apply as much; the point of longer sentences is often either because they're a danger to society, or as a deterrent.)

Further down said slippery slope is people being jailed due to political reasons (although rarely is it ever admitted as such) shortly before an election. You can free them shortly afterwards if you like. It's unlikely given our parties are two sides of the same coin though but it could happen.

I don't really know how to put it into words but something about not giving prisoners, especially short term ones, the right to vote doesn't sit well with me.

What I don't understand is why those countries that do allow (some) prisoners to vote don't exactly have a collapse in democracy.

Nice irony on picking the day that Cameron rejects decriminalising drugs btw

 

[Oswyntail]

That argument is such a slippery slope. It could be used to deny so many basic rights to prisoners.

Part of being in society is human contact. Ergo all prisoners should be in solitary.
Part of being in society is proper sanitation. Ergo all prisoners should only use the bucket.
Part of being in society is having a place to live. Ergo all prisoners will sleep in the yard.
And so on.

My point is that we're only considering people doing short spells, who have been convicted of lesser offences. And for those people IMO the point of prison is lesson-learning and rehabilitation, making sure they don't reoffend, rather than taking them out of society as punishment for punishment's sake or whatever. A point that often seems to be missed by many.

(Though for longer sentences that argument doesn't apply as much; the point of longer sentences is often either because they're a danger to society, or as a deterrent.)

I agree most of the way here. But, IMHO, there has to be a defining line between, if you like, the essentials (which can never be denied, such as life, shelter, food, sanitation, association) and societal benefits (such as voting, watching television). If these latter are taken away, there is more opportunity to induce the criminal to appreciate why they are important, an essential part of the lesson-learning. The question is whether voting is an "essential", without which the health of the criminal is impaired. I do not believe it is.

 

[Thumper Bill]

Unequivocally, yes. They're still human.

I have my doubts as to wether they are all human, I know a Prison Officer who has witnessed a fight between two prisoners involving a weapon made up of a razor blade melted into the handle of a toothbrush, it caused on of the fighting prisoners a serious slash on his face, the fight was all because of a pack of fag papers, I do not want the likes of him to have any say in who governs us. A lot of prisoners would support BNP so prison votes could mean that the BNP would have more sucess in an election, that would not be good for any of us, would it?

 

[Eagle]

The question is whether voting is an "essential", without which the health of the criminal is impaired. I do not believe it is.

A sound argument, and one that's much better than most arguments you see about prisoner suffrage. Personally where I stand is that in a democracy, suffrage should be a universal right (albeit perhaps not a basic one).

 

[455driver]

It's unlikely given our parties are two sides of the same coin

A double sided coin!

 

[SS4]

A lot of prisoners would support BNP so prison votes could mean that the BNP would have more sucess in an election, that would not be good for any of us, would it?

That's their choice. I know a lot of toffs support the Tories which is almost always bad news for those on benefits.

Of course I'm not saying the Tories are anything like the BNP, goodness no. They're poles apart thankfully, I was trying to demonstrate that there are political parties we don't like for whatever reason but it's no reason to ensure they can't be voted. IMO tackling the BNP's arguments will go a lot further in discrediting them than sneaking around them.

edit 2: A lot of prisoners may want to vote for more liberalism in crime and punishment in the same way a low earner may vote against a tax rise or a businessman may vote against a larger welfare budget. Each person (should) vote on their own issues.

 

[ainsworth74]

A lot of prisoners would support BNP so prison votes could mean that the BNP would have more sucess in an election, that would not be good for any of us, would it?

The current prison population is somewhere in the region of 80,000 to 90,000. Somehow I don't see them influencing any election outcomes.

 

[Oswyntail]

The current prison population is somewhere in the region of 80,000 to 90,000. Somehow I don't see them influencing any election outcomes.

How many prisons are in marginals?

 

[90019]

If you don't let prisoners have human rights, that would make them animals, but then you'd have to keep them free range and they'd escape...

 

[ainsworth74]

How many prisons are in marginals?

Well we're supposing that these prisoners would all vote BNP, in which case it doesn't matter if the prisons were in marginals because they still wouldn't be giving enough votes to the BNP candidate to win

Though in a more realistic appraisal where we don't assume that they're all going to vote BNP then I suppose that's something to consider but I also don't see why it's a reason to deny them the vote.

 

[gnolife]

How many prisons are in marginals?

I don't think it would be fair if the entire prison's votes got counted for the area the prison is in. If Mr. Smith from Hull got a ticket to Strangeways, would it not be considered unfair if he forced to choose between not voting, or putting in a vote where it would be lumped in with, in this example, the Manchester votes, where it won't make any difference to him rather than his actual local area?

Note: I picked the name and place at random. If there are any Mr. Smiths from Hull who post in this forum, I apologise for implying that you partake of the sort of activities that would get you admitted to Strangeways.

 

[Kneedown]

. A lot of prisoners would support BNP so prison votes could mean that the BNP would have more sucess in an election, that would not be good for any of us, would it?

How do you come to this conclusion?
Given the BNP's advocation of harsher sentence's and return of Capital Punishment they'd be more likely to vote Labour or Lib-Dem surely?
Turkey's don't vote for Christmas.

 

[HST Power]

Nice irony on picking the day that Cameron rejects decriminalising drugs btw

That wasn't intentional!

That's their choice. I know a lot of toffs support the Tories...

Careful now! We're not all a bad lot!

My main concern, upon hearing the news, was more to do with the fact that the ECHR have got such a big effect on our political and judicary system. Whilst adopting the human rights code is a mandatory clause for EU Membership, surely if the ECHR are telling the Government that they must give some or all prisoners the vote one way or the other, they are taking away British democracy and violating their own code, that we are all free and equal to vote as we please? MPs no longer have the option to deny prisoners voting altogether, therefore could it not be argued that they have lost a human right?

 

[chris89]

I'm of the opinion that if you abuse the society you live in to the extent that you end up inside, then why should you have the right to influence it? Certainly until such time as you are deemed reformed enough to re-enter and participate positively in that society.

Im certainly the same as you.

I know others have different points of views, but just mine is all well.

Chris

 

[HST Power]

Im certainly the same as you.

I know others have different points of views, but just mine is all well.

Chris

Likewise, I share this view.

 

[90sWereBetter]

The government should just ignore that embarassing charade that is the ECHR entierly. As far as I'm concerned, commit a crime in society, you lose most of your rights, including that to vote.

 

[Butts]

I think most prisoners belong to social classes that are not particularly well disposed to voting on the "outside" let alone whilst incarcerated, so the argument about influencing elections is rather academic.

 

[ainsworth74]

As far as I'm concerned, commit a crime in society, you lose most of your rights, including that to vote.

What? Any crime?

 

[yorksrob]

What? Any crime?

I'd say any crime serious enough to lead to incarceration.

 

[SS4]

The government should just ignore that embarassing charade that is the ECHR entierly. As far as I'm concerned, commit a crime in society, you lose most of your rights, including that to vote.

The ECHR doesn't seem to cover prisoners voting. But in case I missed something feel free to take a read.

TIL the prohibition of torture and the right to a fair trial are "embarrassing charades"

 

[yorksrob]

The ECHR doesn't seem to cover prisoners voting. But in case I missed something feel free to

Makes no difference if the Court forces it on us.

 

[Oswyntail]

....TIL the prohibition of torture and the right to a fair trial are "embarrassing charades"

And, I suspect, part of the British system long before the ECHR was established

 

[HST Power]

Capital punishment and torture were done away with long before the Human Rights Convention. The right to a fair trial and the right to vote in democratic elections are long established statutes.

I repeat my earlier point. If the court are telling MPs that they can't vote in favour of keeping the ban, surely they are infringing one of the basic principles placed in the act, the right to a fair vote? The Court are fixing the terms of the vote before the ballot has been cast!

Furthermore, we're not talking about a minor backbench rebellion here, The Prime Minister has said so himself, the idea of prisoners voting makes him feel 'physically sick.'