Priority seating on UK buses

[Cheatcode]

Hi there,

Just a quick question about the best way to handle a situation I often find myself in. About once a week I take a bus, and it’s often very overcrowded (exceeding the standing capacity listed on the front of the bus). I have a disability which means I can struggle to stand (especially on a moving bus or train). I always join the bus from the station where it starts.

I’m just wondering if waiting half an hour for the next bus is my only option, or if there is something else I could try doing. I’ve previously asked the attendant letting people from the queue into the bus, and they said that there is nothing they can do about it.

I’m not really expecting there to be anything, but I thought I’d have a quick ask just in case.

Thank you

 

[Bletchleyite]

Unfortunately you aren't entitled to board a completely full bus which would require someone to alight in your favour. The priority seats are there so that if someone standing needs them more their occupants can be asked to stand so they can sit.

 

[Cheatcode]

Unfortunately you aren't entitled to board a completely full bus which would require someone to alight in your favour. The priority seats are there so that if someone standing needs them more their occupants can be asked to stand so they can sit.

Thanks for the reply, do you know if the bus hasn’t exceeded its capacity how requesting for a priority seat works?

As in, is it a case of asking, but then having no obligation to leave the seat, or is there some sort of accessibility laws saying that they have to give the seat up?

Thanks

 

[Dai Corner]

Maybe make your invisible disability visible by carrying a walking stick or similar aid so somebody will offer you their seat?

 

[Bletchleyite]

Thanks for the reply, do you know if the bus hasn’t exceeded its capacity how requesting for a priority seat works?

In practice just a case of asking for it. I suppose it depends where you are, but I have found at least someone usually does stand up for someone who needs a seat. Though if it's not visibly obvious that you do you may have to ask.

The driver may assist but some won't.

As in, is it a case of asking, but then having no obligation to leave the seat, or is there some sort of accessibility laws saying that they have to give the seat up?

No legal basis as such, unfortunately. It's basically impossible to have a legal basis because the UK has no concept of disability registration. It can be done for a wheelchair user, but that's because you can't really confuse if someone is or not!

I suppose you could write to the bus company indicating you think they are failing to make reasonable adjustments for your disability, but that doesn't give you power over someone in the seat.

In Germany and a number of other European countries there is such a concept, and so there can be a law of "if shown a disability registration card it is an offence not to leave the seat unless you can show one back". Interestingly when I've brought up this idea it's generally opposed by those with disabilities as some form of oppression despite just being analogous to a Blue Badge.

What doesn't help is that bus companies use excessively small vehicles with packed in seat layouts, so these seats are often popular for tall people, despite people with disabilities often not wanting them as they usually are at the front with nothing to hold onto to sit down. It'd help I think if they were maybe one row back so the seat in front is there to hold onto, and didn't have extra legroom so wouldn't be desirable. On a good many buses they are the only ones I can sit in without occupying two seats or blocking the aisle, though I would certainly stand if asked politely by someone needing it more.

 

[LSWR Cavalier]

Hi there,

Just a quick question about the best way to handle a situation I often find myself in. About once a week I take a bus, and it’s often very overcrowded (exceeding the standing capacity listed on the front of the bus). I have a disability which means I can struggle to stand (especially on a moving bus or train). I always join the bus from the station where it starts.

I’m just wondering if waiting half an hour for the next bus is my only option, or if there is something else I could try doing. I’ve previously asked the attendant letting people from the queue into the bus, and they said that there is nothing they can do about it.

I’m not really expecting there to be anything, but I thought I’d have a quick ask just in case.

Thank you

Exceeding the standing capacity allowed? I thought that was set impossibly high, something like 42 seats + 46 standing. 46 would never fit in the gangways.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Exceeding the standing capacity allowed? I thought that was set impossibly high, something like 42 seats + 46 standing. 46 would never fit in the gangways.

These days now the conductor doesn't need to get through the standing capacity usually is such that it would be above a crush-load. There are exceptions, though. The only thing they need to watch out for is it not being "forward of the notice", as it were, so the driver can still see out of the door at junctions and the mirror if cameras aren't fitted. That said, I've ridden plenty of buses crush loaded to the windscreen in the past.

 

[Geordie driver]

On a long single decker if you come even close to the maximum standing it is absolutely rammed. I have in the past asked people to stand for obviously distressed people.

 

[The exile]

Thanks for the reply, do you know if the bus hasn’t exceeded its capacity how requesting for a priority seat works?

As in, is it a case of asking, but then having no obligation to leave the seat, or is there some sort of accessibility laws saying that they have to give the seat up?

Thanks

There’s also always the remote possibility that everyone occupying priority seats is as entitled to them as you are! Mind you, round this way, the biggest sense of entitlement seems to be held by baby-buggy owners.

 

[Qwerty133]

Exceeding the standing capacity allowed? I thought that was set impossibly high, something like 42 seats + 46 standing. 46 would never fit in the gangways.

Depends on the bus. Some solos for example only allow about 3 standing passengers officially and it’s not hard to exceed the capacity on most double deckers if the driver is turning a blind eye to people standing upstairs and even on the stairs themselves.

 

[Busaholic]

Thanks for the reply, do you know if the bus hasn’t exceeded its capacity how requesting for a priority seat works?

As in, is it a case of asking, but then having no obligation to leave the seat, or is there some sort of accessibility laws saying that they have to give the seat up?

Thanks

A gentleman won a pyrrhic victory against First Group a few years ago regarding his right to access the space provided for a wheelchair under disability discrimination laws. The problem according to the judgment given by the highest court ruling was that the wording of the act was so woolly, the bus operator (in this case First) only had to make provision and access possible, but if the space was occupied by an individual or individuals without disability who refused to move from it, it wasn't the bus company's responsibility to intervene. Neither could the passenger (e.g. a mother with a child in a pushchair) be 'required' to move, because their refusal broke no law. The judges made clear their dissatisfaction with this state of affairs and suggested the law should either be amended or superseded, but, this being the U.K., nobody in government took any notice.

 

[Simon75]

A gentleman won a pyrrhic victory against First Group a few years ago regarding his right to access the space provided for a wheelchair under disability discrimination laws. The problem according to the judgment given by the highest court ruling was that the wording of the act was so woolly, the bus operator (in this case First) only had to make provision and access possible, but if the space was occupied by an individual or individuals without disability who refused to move from it, it wasn't the bus company's responsibility to intervene. Neither could the passenger (e.g. a mother with a child in a pushchair) be 'required' to move, because their refusal broke no law. The judges made clear their dissatisfaction with this state of affairs and suggested the law should either be amended or superseded, but, this being the U.K., nobody in government took any notice.

I have seen a few times a wheelchair being left behind as either buggy only or I wheelchair/ 1 buggy on board

Also, I saw the other day 2 youths sitting on the front 2 sears. An old bloke told them to move, but they refused. Then the driver intervened, and told told them to move. The old bloke sat elsewhere after the seats were vacated!

 

[Busaholic]

I have seen a few times a wheelchair being left behind as either buggy only or I wheelchair/ 1 buggy on board

Also, I saw the other day 2 youths sitting on the front 2 sears. An old bloke told them to move, but they refused. Then the driver intervened, and told told them to move. The old bloke sat elsewhere after the seats were vacated!

I'm an old bloke with very obvious mobility issues, but I'd never command others to move, although I might ask nicely. I like a quiet life!

 

[Bovverboy]

I'm beginning to get mobility issues, but I don't like admitting it!

 

[northwichcat]

It's basically impossible to have a legal basis because the UK has no concept of disability registration.

Even if we did, it wouldn't be straight forward. Some people have health conditions that affect them more on certain days than others. It can mean someone might be on two feet one day but in a wheelchair on a different day.

In Germany and a number of other European countries there is such a concept, and so there can be a law of "if shown a disability registration card it is an offence not to leave the seat unless you can show one back".

If they use the same definition of disability as us, how do they ensure disabled people who don't require priority seats, don't occupy them? I have three disabilities but I go hiking. There may be occasions where flashing a pass might be beneficial for me but if I had one I should certainly not be using it to show I need a priority seat over someone else with a disability affecting their mobility.

On a good many buses they are the only ones I can sit in without occupying two seats or blocking the aisle

Usually there's either a back or middle row with extra space on one side, due to the location of the emergency door. Generally I find the seats are made to fit around the features of the bus, like the raised sections for wheels. On one of D&G Bus' 10.8 Enviros recently I sat in one seat and found the leg room was lacking, moved to the one in front and found there was extra space and that wasn't a priority seat or one near an emergency exit.

 

[TheGrandWazoo]

A gentleman won a pyrrhic victory against First Group a few years ago regarding his right to access the space provided for a wheelchair under disability discrimination laws. The problem according to the judgment given by the highest court ruling was that the wording of the act was so woolly, the bus operator (in this case First) only had to make provision and access possible, but if the space was occupied by an individual or individuals without disability who refused to move from it, it wasn't the bus company's responsibility to intervene. Neither could the passenger (e.g. a mother with a child in a pushchair) be 'required' to move, because their refusal broke no law. The judges made clear their dissatisfaction with this state of affairs and suggested the law should either be amended or superseded, but, this being the U.K., nobody in government took any notice.

There was a similar case against Arriva in Darlington https://www.thenorthernecho.co.uk/n...-court-ruling-wheelchair-access-arriva-buses/

 

[Titfield]

There was a similar case against Arriva in Darlington https://www.thenorthernecho.co.uk/n...-court-ruling-wheelchair-access-arriva-buses/

One of the challenges being the long standing (no pun intended) of the principle of first come first served. So if the wheelchair space is occupied by a buggy and then a wheelchair user wishes to board, if there was no other space available would it be fair to compel the buggy user to disembark from the bus?

 

[Bletchleyite]

One of the challenges being the long standing (no pun intended) of the principle of first come first served. So if the wheelchair space is occupied by a buggy and then a wheelchair user wishes to board, if there was no other space available would it be fair to compel the buggy user to disembark from the bus?

If the buggy cannot be folded, yes. Most (almost all, in fact) buggies however can be folded because they are designed to be conveyed in cars, in which an unfolded buggy will not fit. Thus, the correct answer is that the buggy is folded, the bit with wheels is placed in the luggage pen and the bit with the baby in on a seat (which an able bodied passenger should give up). Then the wheelchair user can board.

Nobody is going round with a Silver Cross these days (a cool three thousand pounds if you want one!). Pretty much all of them work as above.

Obviously if the bus is physically full or has reached the displayed capacity limits then neither the wheelchair user nor an able bodied person can board.

 

[TheGrandWazoo]

If the buggy cannot be folded, yes. Most (almost all, in fact) buggies however can be folded because they are designed to be conveyed in cars, in which an unfolded buggy will not fit. Thus, the correct answer is that the buggy is folded, the bit with wheels is placed in the luggage pen and the bit with the baby in on a seat (which an able bodied passenger should give up). Then the wheelchair user can board.

Nobody is going round with a Silver Cross these days (a cool three thousand pounds if you want one!). Pretty much all of them work as above.

Obviously if the bus is physically full or has reached the displayed capacity limits then neither the wheelchair user nor an able bodied person can board.

You are right, of course.

It's just the palaver of someone having to fold up a buggy with a kid when the pressure is on. I did see it recently (might have been on a First Cymru service) where there were two buggies and then a wheelchair user appeared. In all fairness, the two mothers wheeled their buggies off, the wheelchair user boarded, and the two buggies were wheeled back. One mother then had to disembark/reboard at subsequent stops as she was in the gangway but did it all with good grace.

 

[Simon75]

I was on a First bus earlier (Streetlite) and 2 buggies had boarded. A wheelchair user needed to board and the driver asked if one of the buggies could move over to the other side to let the wheelchair on.

 

[Busaholic]

I was on a First bus earlier (Streetlite) and 2 buggies had boarded. A wheelchair user needed to board and the driver asked if one of the buggies could move over to the other side to let the wheelchair on.

That is the correct sequence of events legally speaking and, you might say, morally too. If everyone plays ball it's fine, it works.

 

[AdamWW]

It's just the palaver of someone having to fold up a buggy with a kid when the pressure is on.

And yet in the days before low floor buses it's something that people managed all the time.

 

[Simon75]

And yet in the days before low floor buses it's something that people managed all the time.

A lot of companies (First did), promote 'buggy friendly ' rather than wheelchair friendly