Priority seat story

[Bungle73]

If you really need a seat, I am sure someone will give one to you - even if you have to ask politely. Not everyone dares ask if someone would like a seat, for fear of being moaned at, but I can't imagine a scenario where nobody on a train would move.

I really don't see it as a major problem./

Indeed. I've heard stories when someone has offered their seat to someone else, and instead of being grateful the person had a go at them! And then you have "large" ladies: are they pregnant, or just fat? Getting this wrong could be embarrassing.

It would be much easier if the way it worked was that is someone really needs a seat they just ask, instead of expecting other people to to be psychic and/or run the risk having their goodwill thrown back on their face

 

[Qwerty133]

Wheelchair spaces tend to be easy - if you ask people to move out of foldable seats, generally the assumption is that you have the authority to require them to move and so they do regardless, even if there's no authority there (although I thought there was some kind of rule or other that applies to them when a notice is provided designating it as a wheelchair space - certainly my company's guards have it as part of their duties to keep the space clear at all times for potential users). The easiest way is not to have fold up seats in the spaces.

If they're blocked up with luggage, it's a completely different matter and I've threatened to remove it from the train before, which is usually successful instantly.

But it is acceptable for a member of train crew to abandon their working equipment (trolley) in their fully stocked while they go into a completely different part of the train and leave it their for extended periods including while stopped at stations. Not only does this make the wheelchair space unusable due to the trolley blocking it, it also leaves goods on the trolley unattended and easy to pinch. And as the attendent has no intentions of using said trolley or selling the goods on it would you remove this 'luggage'

 

[EssexGonzo]

To be more specific, it is southern England.

And that, to me, is the seriously sad point I take from this thread. (No, not the Southern bit).

The fact that it is necessary to debate legalities and rules when in any well developed society behavioural standards should ensure that someone who APPEARS to have a greater need is not given some consideration is disappointing.

I'm sure it's not just in the UK that this situation exists but in some countries - Switzerland and Italy being two of which I've had regular personal experience - young people practically jump out of the way to offer senior citizens a seat.

In my book that also applies to the RPI's action in the original post.

 

[Bungle73]

And that, to me, is the seriously sad point I take from this thread. (No, not the Southern bit).

The fact that it is necessary to debate legalities and rules when in any well developed society behavioural standards should ensure that someone who APPEARS to have a greater need is not given some consideration is disappointing.

I'm sure it's not just in the UK that this situation exists but in some countries - Switzerland and Italy being two of which I've had regular personal experience - young people practically jump out of the way to offer senior citizens a seat.

In my book that also applies to the RPI's action in the original post.

Well maybe if some "senior citizens" weren't asses about it then maybe young people would be more willing to give up a seat?

 

[jon0844]

Over the years I've seen older people very grateful to be offered a seat, and taking it.

I've seen many say no thanks, as they're not going very far. Indeed, many of them are probably far fitter than I am!

I've also seen many who get quite upset, perhaps because of the fact they don't want to accept they're getting old. Some can be very bitter and spiteful as a result, which then stops people daring to ask the first two types!

And of course we've already mentioned the woman who is falsely assumed to be pregnant!

 

[Deeps]

Deeps, had the train been announced as ready for boarding before you got onto it? If not, then that's why the reservations were still being put out.

The train had been announced (and shown on dep board) beforehand but the doors were locked while the train was "serviced". The doors were unlocked and everyone then piled on board, there were certainly no reservation tickets in the coaches that we were in until well after the train had departed.

just noticed you complained to fgw with this on Facebook.

Not guilty I'm not a Facebook user. Must have been someone else "lucky" enough to have been on that train....................Would be interested - do you have a link please ?

 

[Flamingo]

The train had been announced (and shown on dep board) beforehand but the doors were locked while the train was "serviced". The doors were unlocked and everyone then piled on board, there were certainly no reservation tickets in the coaches that we were in until well after the train had departed.

Sometimes, rather than delay a train (if it was late-running inward and a full prep can't be done before departure), the reservations may only get put out after departure. It's preferable to totally abandoning the reservations on busy trains to the detriment of passengers boarding later in the journey who have made reservations, or delaying the service (with resultant missed connections etc) to get them put out.

It seems a bit tough on those who may have boarded and sat in seats in good faith, but it is the least-worst scenario looking at the bigger picture.

As a general rule (not aimed at any poster on this thread), in cases of genuine hardship (and we get pretty good at telling the chancers from the genuine), it is always worth approaching the train-crew and explaining the problem. As always in life, we respond to a polite request and reasonable explanation much more favorably than what may appear to be an unreasonable demand!

 

[sheff1]

If ones turns up at the last minute why should one expect to be prioritised a seat?

Cross Country believe it is a perfectly reasonable expectation !

 

[Bungle73]

Cross Country believe it is a perfectly reasonable expectation !

Oh? And how do they implement that then? And does it comply with the NRCoC?

And why is it "reasonable" to prioritise a seat for someone who turned up at the last minute versus someone who booked their seat 3 months previously?

 

[sheff1]

Oh? And how do they implement that then?

http://www.crosscountrytrains.co.uk/travel-tools/ten-minute-reservations

 

[Bungle73]

http://www.crosscountrytrains.co.uk/travel-tools/ten-minute-reservations

That's not what was being suggested though. That's still a pre-booked reservation, and one that's only going to be implemented if there are seats available.

What was suggested was that the person who just turned up was "more entitled" to a seat than someone on an Advance, and presumably they want the Advance passenger turfed out of their seat in favour of the other person.

 

[Chrisgr31]

I'm not sure what you're saying? You get on the train, and then sit in the first seat that takes your fancy.

You get on the train and you sit in a seat which specifically says that it is a priority seat for those who are infirm, pregnant etc whilst you are not in one of these priority classes. You do this because they have more space than standard seats.

When someone gets on who is in one of the categories that qualifies for this seat who stay seated and ignore them, and they ask someone seated in a standard seat to move.

 

[dcsprior]

Over the years I've seen older people very grateful to be offered a seat, and taking it.

I've seen many say no thanks, as they're not going very far. Indeed, many of them are probably far fitter than I am!

I've also seen many who get quite upset, perhaps because of the fact they don't want to accept they're getting old. Some can be very bitter and spiteful as a result, which then stops people daring to ask the first two types!

And of course we've already mentioned the woman who is falsely assumed to be pregnant!

Something like TfL's "Baby on Board" badge for people who have a requirement for a priority seat would be a good idea. As well as ensuring those not requiring a seat didn't get offended by being repeatedly offered them, it would help those whose need isn't immediately apparent - a few years ago, my (now) fiance sat in a priority seat on a bus on her first trip out after surgery to re-break/pin a broken collarbone which had healed badly, and was subject to tutting for sitting there.

 

[Bungle73]

You get on the train and you sit in a seat which specifically says that it is a priority seat for those who are infirm, pregnant etc whilst you are not in one of these priority classes. You do this because they have more space than standard seats.

Why shouldn't I, or anyone else, sit there? There's no rule to say I can't. And as you say they offer more leg room which is at a premium on some trains, and I'm not a really tall person

When someone gets on who is in one of the categories that qualifies for this seat who stay seated and ignore them, and they ask someone seated in a standard seat to move.

How do you know someone is in that category? It's not always obvious, and getting it wrong can cause the person to get aggravated, like I said earlier, and also I don't know about you but I'm not constantly monitoring who's getting and off the train at every station.

And why can't they ask someone in the priority seat to move?

 

[Chrisgr31]

Why shouldn't I, or anyone else, sit there? There's no rule to say I can't. And as you say they offer more leg room which is at a premium on some trains, and I'm not a really tall person

How do you know someone is in that category? It's not always obvious, and getting it wrong can cause the person to get aggravated, like I said earlier, and also I don't know about you but I'm not constantly monitoring who's getting and off the train at every station.

And why can't they ask someone in the priority seat to move?

I agree there is nothing to stop them seating there, however if they are sitting there they should offer the seat to someone who qualifies as a user of that seat. That does of course mean on most journeys they won't have to move, but occasionally they will.

Now of course they may be in a priority class themselves, however they are not old, not pregnant (usually male!) and from the way they push and shove to get to the seats clearly not disabled. Not forgetting I am seeing these people travelling on the train everyday.

Obviously those who need the priority seats could ask them to move but invariably they dont, either someone in a non-priority seat offers to move before anyone is asked or those entitled to them asks someone in a non-priority seat to give up their seat.

Regularly catch a Southern train in commuting hours and you'll see this happening. All it really needs as someone mentioned is for those entitled to seat in the seats to have a badge or pass and to be told to ask those in priority seats to move first. If they find they are entitled to them they can then ask those in non-priority seats to move.

 

[IanXC]

Cross Country believe it is a perfectly reasonable expectation !

Oh? And how do they implement that then? And does it comply with the NRCoC?

Indeed:

"Available - but may be reserved en route - Reading-Newcastle"

Apparently that means, well this seat isn't reserved at the moment, but keep an eye out, it may be booked once you've been sat in it for a while!

 

[alex17595]

The train had been announced (and shown on dep board) beforehand but the doors were locked while the train was "serviced". The doors were unlocked and everyone then piled on board, there were certainly no reservation tickets in the coaches that we were in until well after the train had departed.



Not guilty I'm not a Facebook user. Must have been someone else "lucky" enough to have been on that train....................Would be interested - do you have a link please ?

its was posted twice but the other seems to have disappeared.
https://www.facebook.com/FirstGreat...&id=345127331805&ref=stream&__user=1006955609

 

[09065]

Regularly catch a Southern train in commuting hours and you'll see this happening. All it really needs as someone mentioned is for those entitled to seat in the seats to have a badge or pass and to be told to ask those in priority seats to move first. If they find they are entitled to them they can then ask those in non-priority seats to move.

Surely that is getting too close to "empowering the public" to be a good idea? Giving people a pass or badge that allows them to move people out of priority seats?

or am I reading it wrong?

Anyway, quite a few TOCs now employ a strategy of "if you are pregnant and a season ticket holder; you get a first class upgrade when standard class is full"

It would be more logical to extend that in some respects. If you have a valid Mat B1 Card (which entitles you to free prescriptions during pregnancy and a period after) then produce that at the ticket office when you buy / to the guard if you bought from a TVM/online; and if standard class is full you get a first upgrade.

Of course that is a very quick and dirty change to the rules and would need refinement to close it to abuse, but it is an idea.

 

[Flamingo]

A copy of the Mat B1 is sent into the TOC, and a letter issued giving the dates to make it valid. We don't just take the customers word for it - as I've said before, never ask a lady if she's pregnant unless you can see a head coming out!

 

[jon0844]

Anyway, quite a few TOCs now employ a strategy of "if you are pregnant and a season ticket holder; you get a first class upgrade when standard class is full"

That's what FCC used to do. Ironically, by the time my wife got pregnant, she wasn't commuting anymore and couldn't benefit.

Once you proved you were pregnant, you got some form of pass to allow you to sit in first class.

All seemed fine, but I guess some other groups complained so FCC stopped this a year or two ago and introduced a pass. Again, you must get approved but can now carry a priority pass to show to passengers to ask/get them to move.

I am not sure this is a better system (bar it now covering anyone with some need for a seat - standard class only, unless you have a FC ticket) as it now means someone being made to show the pass - which a few people might not feel comfortable doing. That and the person being shown the pass having no idea what it is and if it's genuine or not (and despite not having seen one, I am unsure how hard it would be to fake one - and what anyone could do if you were 'caught' with something like that).

 

[Stats]

Regularly catch a Southern train in commuting hours and you'll see this happening. All it really needs as someone mentioned is for those entitled to seat in the seats to have a badge or pass and to be told to ask those in priority seats to move first. If they find they are entitled to them they can then ask those in non-priority seats to move.

Southern operate a Priority Seat card scheme. http://www.southernrailway.com/your-journey/accessibility/priority-seat-card/

 

[jon0844]

This is the FCC one.

http://www.firstcapitalconnect.co.uk/customer-care/priority-cards/

It says; "Not everyone is comfortable with asking other passengers to give up their seat and explaining why this is necessary. The priority seat card is designed to avoid any embarrassment in this situation"

But showing someone a card and then asking to move is probably going to still be quite embarrassing for some.

Of course, some will relish having one and waving it like a police warrant card...

 

[island]

What if you've had a priority seat reserved for you without knowing?

 

[Bungle73]

But showing someone a card and then asking to move is probably going to still be quite embarrassing for some.

Indeed. TBH this "card" sounds like a complete waste of time. What's wrong with the person simply saying "excuse me but I'm pregnant" or "excuse me but I have a disability, may I sit there?" I'm sure most people will be compliant and move, and those that are arses will be arses "special card" or no.

And what if the person in the seat has never seen, or heard, of this card? I haven't. They're likely to think it's some kind of scam and refuse to move when they might have anyway.

 

[jon0844]

That's what I thought when I saw these new cards being offered. A good idea, in theory, but somewhat flawed in practice.

What happens when someone asks nicely to sit in a priority seat in the future and someone says 'Sorry, you need to show me your card'?

 

[Flamingo]

Here is a situation that happened to me once:

I had a two passengers, one in a wheelchair, both on Advance tickets but on a later train as they had been delayed getting to the train (through no fault of the railways, taxi didn't turn up), and when they got to the wheelchair space the able-bodied passenger was demanding that the two teenage girls sitting in the table seat beside the wheelchair space were moved so they could sit there rather than on a drop-down seat. They said they were entitled to the priority seat as they were entitled to a proper seat as the helper. The exact expression used by the passenger in the wheelchair was "You can just do your damn job and shift them now".

Any thoughts on if the partner / helper was entitled to the seat?

 

[IanD]

No entitlement to a seat at all. I'd have tipped anyone off at the next stop if they spoke to me like that. Wheelchair or not. Good job I don't work on the railways!

 

[sheff1]

Never mind the seat, they were not even entitled to be on the train - unless you had 'done your damn job' and sold them new full price tickets .

 

[HLW]

It says; "Not everyone is comfortable with asking other passengers to give up their seat and explaining why this is necessary. The priority seat card is designed to avoid any embarrassment in this situation"

But showing someone a card and then asking to move is probably going to still be quite embarrassing for some.

Also, would people with a card assume they "win" the seat if someone without a card was sitting there?
A while ago I had hurt my knee so was unable to stand without pain for long periods, and could not sit in normal airline style seats due to lack of legroom (it was very painful if my knee touched the seat in front). I did not look disabled, and did not have a priority seat card - I had no proof at all that my knee hurt.
I did worry about being forced to move by rail staff if someone who was obviously entitled to a priority seat got on, luckily it never happened though.

 

[jon0844]

Another thing will be when the person being asked to move by a card holder is also a card holder.

Maybe we could have a Top Trumps style system added, where people will compare ratings on their card to consider age, disability/condition, time with said disability, how many babies 'on board', distance to travel etc - and then people can 'win' the seat accordingly.