Princes Risborough to Coventry Routeing

[aych]

According to the routeing guide, Princes Risborough to Coventry can be routed via LONDON. Is this still true for tickets with a 'via Banbury' restriction? E.g. Coventry->Oxford->Reading->Paddington->Marylebone->Princes Risborough still 'technically' goes via Banbury, does not double back and follows the correct maps (Coventry to London on RG+SM and London to PR von CI). Is there a negative easement preventing this? Or am I missing something about the rules?

 

[CyrusWuff]

According to the routeing guide, Princes Risborough to Coventry can be routed via LONDON. Is this still true for tickets with a 'via Banbury' restriction? E.g. Coventry->Oxford->Reading->Paddington->Marylebone->Princes Risborough still 'technically' goes via Banbury, does not double back and follows the correct maps (Coventry to London on RG+SM and London to PR von CI). Is there a negative easement preventing this? Or am I missing something about the rules?

Whilst no fares check is required as both Princes Risborough and Coventry are routeing points, the electronic data for the route bars travel via Milton Keynes Central, Richmond or Wimbledon on tickets routed via Banbury and there is no cross-London indicator for such tickets.

I suspect you'd get an argument at Euston that the ticket was "too cheap" given even the Anytime Return routed via Banbury (£63.00) is cheaper than the Off-Peak Return routed via London (£86.40.)

 

[aych]

Thank you, I didn't know about the route bars being a thing. However, I don't think any of MK/Richmond/Wimbledon are on the line from Paddington to Reading?

This seems like it would cause an argument at Paddington, but I don't see anything in the restrictions explicitly forbidding my proposed route.

 

[Watershed]

Thank you, I didn't know about the route bars being a thing. However, I don't think any of MK/Richmond/Wimbledon are on the line from Paddington to Reading?

This seems like it would cause an argument at Paddington, but I don't see anything in the restrictions explicitly forbidding my proposed route.

The electronic data restrictions apply only to journey planners, so they only limit the journeys that you can get an itinerary. In my view, the Routeing Guide is still a contractual method you can use to determine valid routes - it gives no reference to these electronic restrictions, so they are not a limitation on the contractually permitted routes.

The lack of a Maltese Cross symbol similarly means that journey planners aren't allowed to offer Tube transfers as part of the journey, so you'd only be able to get itineraries overnight when the industry data feeds say that the Tube "doesn't run". However, there is a specific section of the Routeing Guide which makes clear that such tickets are still valid on the Tube when LONDON is a mapped route:

In some instances (particularly long distance cross country journeys) the fares data will show an "any permitted" fare but without the via London, Maltese cross symbol. Reference to Section C (the “yellow pages”) may show via London to be a permitted route for this journey and in such instances travel via London to include cross-London transfer would be permitted.

So I agree that contractually speaking, it is a valid route. But you would probably encounter arguments not only at Paddington but quite possibly at Marylebone too, and certainly I think you would be very lucky to be let through the Tube barriers, if they actually look at your ticket that is.

Almost no gateline staff - NR or LU - seem to have any proper understanding of NR ticket routeing/validity rules, in my experience. I don't blame them for not knowing in the first place as it's probably not covered in detail in their training, but I do find that those who challenge 'unusual' tickets often have a bad attitude along the lines of "this can't be valid so I'm not interested in hearing why you think otherwise".

 

[aych]

Awesome, thank you for the help+explanation! I was indeed able to find an overnight+tubeless itinerary for this.

 

[CyrusWuff]

All that said, it's a fairly moot point given Condition 13 of the National Rail Conditions of Travel relegates the Routeing Guide to an information box.

So if you can't get the National Rail website or an online retailer to produce an itinerary with the desired routeing, it's likely to cause issues even where the Routeing Guide says it's a valid route.

Not that that changes much, given some staff will say a ticket isn't valid even when it's accompanied by an itinerary!

 

[blimmo]

All that said, it's a fairly moot point given Condition 13 of the National Rail Conditions of Travel relegates the Routeing Guide to an information box.

Although Conditions 13.1.1 and 13.1.2 are both preceeded by

If no specific route or Train Company is shown, then (subject to any time restrictions for the type of fare you have purchased) it will be valid on:

which to me suggests that they don't apply to tickets with a specified route (such as this case)...

 

[Watershed]

Although Conditions 13.1.1 and 13.1.2 are both preceeded by

which to me suggests that they don't apply to tickets with a specified route (such as this case)...

I know what you're getting at, but I don't think you can read the NRCoT that literally. Otherwise there would no way of determining the validity of tickets with route/TOC restrictions.

 

[blimmo]

Yeah I appreciate that it's obviously not what they meant and I wouldn't rely on it. Just more evidence that the wording of a contract that often determines criminal liability is incredibly shoddy.

 

[Andrew1395]

Won’t a journey planner want to have a fixed link in place between Paddington and Marylebone. eg Tube line Or alternatively, a scheduled service by alternative mode, in the data that the ticket is valid on to join together the non rail legs?

Is there a fixed link walk time then the journey planners should find an itinerary. Or as suggested the ticket permits use of another mode without the cross London marker? The LO map in the Routeing Guide Or map sequence combinations that include London GO1, I bet, are there to facilitate tickets with the cross London marker.

As the OP says if Journey Planners offer an Itinerary these can be managed by Pricing Managers initiating a circuitous route easement In the RG data exported to journey planners. If they feel the VIA BANBURY price should preclude travel via London, this thread might raise this in their in trays.

 

[Swedenorer]

Southern will sell a single ticket via Marylebone and Euston for £112 anytime or £60.40 off peak. The £31.60 fare does not show for routes via London but only specifies via Banbury. No fare us available via Padd. I wouldn't push my luck with a Via Banbury personally pace the RG - you will almost certainly be accused of over travelling.