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Paddington-Hull, then Hull-Brighton return (then next day Brighton-Manchester and finally Manchester-Paddington - it was a 2-day cycle).
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Indeed - the frequency of services varied through the years but it was particularly frequent up to and including the 1982/83 timetable when there were services every 2 or 3 hours. Following this, more services originated from the south coast so that by 1984/85, only two services northbound (Liverpool and Hull, both early morning) and only two services southbound (both from Manchester and both late) remained.
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Indeed, can't remember the time but it was morning. Possibly 0912 or 1012? (1997 timetable)
On top of that, a number of the Waterloo-Basingstoke stoppers would then go on to form a Basingstoke-Brighton service (which was hourly, one in three originating from Reading) with the same unit. However these were not advertised as through. Mostly VEPs with the odd CIG, and all single 4-car units.
The return journeys left Brighton on the hour, the pattern was 1000/1300/1600 went to Reading, the rest to Basingstoke except the 0900 and 1700, and 1200 in the summer, were Wales and West services through to Cardiff and didn't go through Eastleigh. In the summer, consequently, the unit which would have formed the 1200 from Brighton went to and from Littlehampton instead.
I can actually find the Waterloo to Brighton service on the 2003-04 Winter timetable: https://web.archive.org/web/2004021...ns.co.uk/traintimes/pdfs/new2003/ITT23s03.pdf
Was it only after privatization or did NSE do Waterloo/Reading/Basingstoke to Brighton? Also when did the service go over to Desiro operation? Was it still slam door in the timetable I posted?
I can actually find the Waterloo to Brighton service on the 2003-04 Winter timetable: https://web.archive.org/web/2004021...ns.co.uk/traintimes/pdfs/new2003/ITT23s03.pdf
Was it only after privatization or did NSE do Waterloo/Reading/Basingstoke to Brighton? Also when did the service go over to Desiro operation? Was it still slam door in the timetable I posted?
I'm not sure when these services were introduced, but probably sometime between 1994 and 1996 - likely during the period when SWT existed, but was owned by BR.
I remember them from 1997 (as I made quite close observations of SWT services that year in particular) but I think they'd been around before that. They definitely weren't there in the early 90s, during the initial years of the Solent electrification.
I suspect it went over to Desiro at the same time as most services did, i.e. late 2004 (there seemed to be a transition period starting late summer and completing early spring 2005). I suspect it was still slam door in 2003/04 as just about every service of its type still was.
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On another "South Western" topic, the 1832 Waterloo-Fratton/PSS (2P91 in 1983) of the 80s was another odd one for calling pattern. During the day the semi-fast would call at Farncombe and Godalming then fast to Haslemere, while the fast would go non-stop Guildford-Haslemere and the stopper would call at all stations. However the 1832 called at Godalming and Witley, and not Farncombe. Additionally the 1832 called at Walton-on-Thames and Weybridge, unusual for a faster service to Woking. (In fact the practice of stopping one faster service at Walton and Weybridge at this sort of time was long-standing, the Waterloo-Alton service at roughly the same time in 1997 doing the same).
This service I have particular memory of as it was my only ever trip on an EPB, on 21 Oct 1983. The usual stock was CIG/VEP combo but that day was an 8EPB sub (5123 + 5124, still remember the specific units, so rare was the occurrence!)
Similarly the 1732 Waterloo-Portsmouth Harbour from 1983 for a good few years called all stations Woking-Haslemere then went semi-fast to Portsmouth calling principal stations only. Even though it was little faster than the following 1740 as a result, it retained its class 1 designation (1P33 in 1983) and '81' headcode, which it had in previous years when it had the typical peak Guildford-Godalming-Haslemere calling pattern of the '81's. Curiously, the 1820 to Portsmouth called at the same stops except Worplesdon (and had a 4 min faster total journey time) yet was a class 2 (2P87 in 1983), had an '82' headcode, and unlike 1P33 had a buffet.
A final feature of the 80s Portsmouth Direct evening peak was how the '81's (semi-fast to fast) typically served Worplesdon while most of the '82's (most or all stations south of Guildford) didn't. I believe this was to keep the previous '82' ahead of the '81' and avoid the need for overtaking moves at Haslemere. During the entire 80s the Direct had one service every 10 minutes so there was doubtless the need for these kinds of tricks.
In the morning this didn't happen - it was the '82's that served Worplesdon - because the services were timed to ensure a 10-min interval at Haslemere, not London, so each '82' started from Portsmouth just behind the '81' and was only 5 mins or so ahead of the next '81' once it got to Waterloo.
I'm not sure when these services were introduced, but probably sometime between 1994 and 1996 - likely during the period when SWT existed, but was owned by BR.
I remember them from 1997 (as I made quite close observations of SWT services that year in particular) but I think they'd been around before that. They definitely weren't there in the early 90s, during the initial years of the Solent electrification.
I suspect it went over to Desiro at the same time as most services did, i.e. late 2004 (there seemed to be a transition period starting late summer and completing early spring 2005). I suspect it was still slam door in 2003/04 as just about every service of its type still was.
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On another "South Western" topic, the 1832 Waterloo-Fratton/PSS (2P91 in 1983) of the 80s was another odd one for calling pattern. During the day the semi-fast would call at Farncombe and Godalming then fast to Haslemere, while the fast would go non-stop Guildford-Haslemere and the stopper would call at all stations. However the 1832 called at Godalming and Witley, and not Farncombe. Additionally the 1832 called at Walton-on-Thames and Weybridge, unusual for a faster service to Woking. (In fact the practice of stopping one faster service at Walton and Weybridge at this sort of time was long-standing, the Waterloo-Alton service at roughly the same time in 1997 doing the same).
This service I have particular memory of as it was my only ever trip on an EPB, on 21 Oct 1983. The usual stock was CIG/VEP combo but that day was an 8EPB sub (5123 + 5124, still remember the specific units, so rare was the occurrence!)
Similarly the 1732 Waterloo-Portsmouth Harbour from 1983 for a good few years called all stations Woking-Haslemere then went semi-fast to Portsmouth calling principal stations only. Even though it was little faster than the following 1740 as a result, it retained its class 1 designation (1P33 in 1983) and '81' headcode, which it had in previous years when it had the typical peak Guildford-Godalming-Haslemere calling pattern of the '81's. Curiously, the 1820 to Portsmouth called at the same stops except Worplesdon (and had a 4 min faster total journey time) yet was a class 2 (2P87 in 1983), had an '82' headcode, and unlike 1P33 had a buffet.
A final feature of the 80s Portsmouth Direct evening peak was how the '81's (semi-fast to fast) typically served Worplesdon while most of the '82's (most or all stations south of Guildford) didn't. I believe this was to keep the previous '82' ahead of the '81' and avoid the need for overtaking moves at Haslemere. During the entire 80s the Direct had one service every 10 minutes so there was doubtless the need for these kinds of tricks.
In the morning this didn't happen - it was the '82's that served Worplesdon - because the services were timed to ensure a 10-min interval at Haslemere, not London, so each '82' started from Portsmouth just behind the '81' and was only 5 mins or so ahead of the next '81' once it got to Waterloo.
I think a few services did have Desiros from late 2003 or early 2004. Waterloo to Basingstoke and Alton for example and Ascot to Guildford, but perhaps not the long distance services.
Interestingly a lot of the services you mention from the 1980s were still around much later the same timetable from 2003/04 there is an 18:40 London Waterloo to Fratton which stopped everywhere apart from Hilsea and an 18:32 Waterloo to Portsmouth Harbour service which was the limited stop service. There was a 17:34 all stops from Guildford to Portsmouth Harbour and the 17:51 ran non stop to Haslemere and then called at all the major stations. It looks like the patterns are similar but the time of the service has changed a little: https://web.archive.org/web/2004021...ns.co.uk/traintimes/pdfs/new2003/ITT17s03.pdf
I think a few services did have Desiros from late 2003 or early 2004. Waterloo to Basingstoke and Alton for example and Ascot to Guildford, but perhaps not the long distance services.
Ah ok. I was in the Solent area and the only services that were not slammers were the 442s and the (as was) 170s running the Romsey/Salisbury local services.
The 450s started appearing on Portsmouth-Southampton stoppers around May but I seem to remember the Portsmouth Direct was still mostly slammers in summer 2004.
Interestingly a lot of the services you mention from the 1980s were still around much later the same timetable from 2003/04 there is an 18:40 London Waterloo to Fratton which stopped everywhere apart from Hilsea and an 18:32 Waterloo to Portsmouth Harbour service which was the limited stop service. There was a 17:34 all stops from Guildford to Portsmouth Harbour and the 17:51 ran non stop to Haslemere and then called at all the major stations. It looks like the patterns are similar but the time of the service has changed a little: https://web.archive.org/web/2004021...ns.co.uk/traintimes/pdfs/new2003/ITT17s03.pdf
The presence of the 1832 was just a coincidence, because the original 1832 was withdrawn in May 1989 and only came back much later, possibly after the millennium.
There were basically two patterns in this period, the "1977 pattern" and the "1991 pattern", as I call them.
The original 10-minute pattern lasted in one form or another from May 1977 (can't remember that far back, have learnt this on here) to May 1991 and consisted basically of fasts/semi-fasts at around 1710, 1730, and 1750 and stoppers (fast to Woking, i.e. '82's) at around 1720, 1740, 1800 and 1820 (the latter with buffet) plus the unusual 1832. Two unusual stock allocations included the faster 1710 being operated with VEPs on the one hand, but the slower 1820 featuring a buffet on the other. From May 1989 there was an additional stopper added at around 1700 and a new semi-fast at 1811. This latter service resulted in the buffet stopper at 1820 being delayed to 1825, and the 1832 being withdrawn. Additionally the 1800-ish terminated at Haslemere with the 1811 picking up the stops south of Haslemere. Additionally, a '73' all-from-Surbiton stopper also left Waterloo around 1800 and headed for Haslemere, looped at Guildford to allow connection from the 1825 which IIRC lost the Farncombe, Milford and Witley stops.
The big change in the late 20th-century was in 1991 when there was a serious pare-back of the peak on the Direct due, presumably, to the recession. The new 1700 from 1989 was sadly withdrawn, the 1710 left a little earlier and became a stopper while the 1720 became a semi-fast. The 1710 was then looped at Haslemere to allow the 1720 to pass. Meanwhile the 1730 and 1740 were combined into a 1735-ish stopper. The 1800 to Haslemere survived while the 1811 disappeared and the 1825 was, I think, moved forward to 1815. There was however a new stopper at 1840-ish, which is the one you observe above.
Later in the 90s the cuts began to be reversed with the arrival of more optimistic times. So the "1991 pattern" remained but additional services were inserted. For example the 1750 ran faster (as you observe) and a new 1754 semi-fast to Haslemere, picking up the Guildford stop (another one with an odd calling pattern IIRC, I think it was West Byfleet then Guildford, without a Woking stop) then Farncombe, Godalming and Haslemere. Meantime the 1800 Haslemere stopper was delayed to 1808 and looped at Guildford to allow the 1815 to pass.
The 1832 you observe was added later, can't remember the exact date but it wasn't present in 1997, for example.
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I think a few services did have Desiros from late 2003 or early 2004. Waterloo to Basingstoke and Alton for example and Ascot to Guildford, but perhaps not the long distance services.
Interestingly a lot of the services you mention from the 1980s were still around much later the same timetable from 2003/04 there is an 18:40 London Waterloo to Fratton which stopped everywhere apart from Hilsea and an 18:32 Waterloo to Portsmouth Harbour service which was the limited stop service. There was a 17:34 all stops from Guildford to Portsmouth Harbour and the 17:51 ran non stop to Haslemere and then called at all the major stations. It looks like the patterns are similar but the time of the service has changed a little: https://web.archive.org/web/2004021...ns.co.uk/traintimes/pdfs/new2003/ITT17s03.pdf
Just looked at that timetable on web.archive.org and an interesting feature is how the services which are most or all stops south of Guildford are headcode 73/83, even if they are fast north of Guildford. This is an important difference from the 80s and 90s when 73/83 always indicated a most-or-all-stops-from-Surbiton stopper, while the above services would be 72/82.
Ah ok. I was in the Solent area and the only services that were not slammers were the 442s and the (as was) 170s running the Romsey/Salisbury local services.
The 450s started appearing on Portsmouth-Southampton stoppers around May but I seem to remember the Portsmouth Direct was still mostly slammers in summer 2004.
The presence of the 1832 was just a coincidence, because the original 1832 was withdrawn in May 1989 and only came back much later, possibly after the millennium.
There were basically two patterns in this period, the "1977 pattern" and the "1991 pattern", as I call them.
The original 10-minute pattern lasted in one form or another from May 1977 (can't remember that far back, have learnt this on here) to May 1991 and consisted basically of fasts/semi-fasts at around 1710, 1730, and 1750 and stoppers (fast to Woking, i.e. '82's) at around 1720, 1740, 1800 and 1820 (the latter with buffet) plus the unusual 1832. Two unusual stock allocations included the faster 1710 being operated with VEPs on the one hand, but the slower 1820 featuring a buffet on the other. From May 1989 there was an additional stopper added at around 1700 and a new semi-fast at 1811. This latter service resulted in the buffet stopper at 1820 being delayed to 1825, and the 1832 being withdrawn. Additionally the 1800-ish terminated at Haslemere with the 1811 picking up the stops south of Haslemere. Additionally, a '73' all-from-Surbiton stopper also left Waterloo around 1800 and headed for Haslemere, looped at Guildford to allow connection from the 1825 which IIRC lost the Farncombe, Milford and Witley stops.
The big change in the late 20th-century was in 1991 when there was a serious pare-back of the peak on the Direct due, presumably, to the recession. The new 1700 from 1989 was sadly withdrawn, the 1710 left a little earlier and became a stopper while the 1720 became a semi-fast. The 1710 was then looped at Haslemere to allow the 1720 to pass. Meanwhile the 1730 and 1740 were combined into a 1735-ish stopper. The 1800 to Haslemere survived while the 1811 disappeared and the 1825 was, I think, moved forward to 1815. There was however a new stopper at 1840-ish, which is the one you observe above.
Later in the 90s the cuts began to be reversed with the arrival of more optimistic times. So the "1991 pattern" remained but additional services were inserted. For example the 1750 ran faster (as you observe) and a new 1754 semi-fast to Haslemere, picking up the Guildford stop (another one with an odd calling pattern IIRC, I think it was West Byfleet then Guildford, without a Woking stop) then Farncombe, Godalming and Haslemere. Meantime the 1800 Haslemere stopper was delayed to 1808 and looped at Guildford to allow the 1815 to pass.
The 1832 you observe was added later, can't remember the exact date but it wasn't present in 1997, for example.
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Just looked at that timetable on web.archive.org and an interesting feature is how the services which are most or all stops south of Guildford are headcode 73/83, even if they are fast north of Guildford. This is an important difference from the 80s and 90s when 73/83 always indicated a most-or-all-stops-from-Surbiton stopper, while the above services would be 72/82.
Do you happen to know which Portsmouth Direct Line services used the 442/Wessex Electrics? I have heard that they did go to Portsmouth but from the 1990s/2000s I can only find images of the slam door stock or occasionally Desiros.
Do you happen to know which Portsmouth Direct Line services used the 442/Wessex Electrics? I have heard that they did go to Portsmouth but from the 1990s/2000s I can only find images of the slam door stock or occasionally Desiros.
Do you happen to know which Portsmouth Direct Line services used the 442/Wessex Electrics? I have heard that they did go to Portsmouth but from the 1990s/2000s I can only find images of the slam door stock or occasionally Desiros.
From about 1992 most fast services ('81's calling only at Haslemere, Petersfield, Havant, Fratton beyond Guildford) were operated by 442s.
I can remember the 1997 pattern clearly. At that time there was xx00 (Woking, Guildford, Haslemere, Petersfield, Havant, Fratton, PSS, PH); xx20 (Clapham, Woking, Guildford, Farncombe, Godalming, Haslemere then all) and xx40 (as xx00 but skipped Haslemere and Petersfield and terminated PSS). The xx00 and xx40 were generally 442-operated during the day while the xx20 was operated with CIGs and BEPs (slam door). Towards the peak some 442s were taken off the Portsmouth Direct to double-up services on the SWML, or used to double up other Portsmouth Direct services, so there were one or two slam-door formations on the fast services (the 1540 springs to mind which was a single 4CIG, IIRC).
By 1999 the service had increased to every 15 mins (xx08 and xx38 fast and xx23 and xx53 stoppers). Again, at that time, most of the fasts were 442s.
However by 2004 there seemed to be few 442s left on the Portsmouth Direct. Before the Desiros came in, most services, fast or stopping, were operated by slam-door stock and you even had VEPs on some of the fasts. (I presume increased demand on the SWML meant more 442s were needed there).
One unusual stopping pattern before electrification was a late afternoon London Euston to Liverpool Lime Street service whose first stop was Mossley Hill (set down only); there was then an inadvertised stop at Edge Hill (to detach a Southport portion) before it continued to Lime Street.
There was a crresponding pick-up stop at Mossley Hill on a southbound morning service, but that had other stops prior to Euston.
From memory southbound Southport portions ran into Liverpool Lime Street, often hauled by one of Southport's Stanier 3MT 2-6-2T.
One unusual stopping pattern before electrification was a late afternoon London Euston to Liverpool Lime Street service whose first stop was Mossley Hill (set down only); there was then an inadvertised stop at Edge Hill (to detach a Southport portion) before it continued to Lime Street.
There was a crresponding pick-up stop at Mossley Hill on a southbound morning service, but that had other stops prior to Euston.
From memory southbound Southport portions ran into Liverpool Lime Street, often hauled by one of Southport's Stanier 3MT 2-6-2T.
There were actually some regular scheduled Central Trains services from Birmingham to Liverpool Lime Street that called regularly at Winsford, Hartford and many at Acton Bridge. Some services called at most of these + Mossley Hill.
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