PresTram

[TramEngineer]

The same negative arguments against Rail Systems in nearly every city that it has been proposed. In every city that has installed one, ridership has exceeded projections.
In Preston, Trampower is seeking to install a DEMONSTRATION tramway from the Deepdale Retail Park to Miley Tunnel. This demo tramway is being backed with private financing and not the "public purse".

This little stub of about a mile long has a few legitimate purposes:
to prove and improve Trampower Technology, to show their equipment to potential buyers, and if the citizens of Preston approve- extend this one mile long demo from Fishergate to Bluebell way ( about 8 km)

That doesn't sound so daft to me.

People will ride rail systems when it connects from where People are to where they want to be at a cost/benefit ratio that works for them.

 

[PR1Berske]

The same negative arguments against Rail Systems in nearly every city that it has been proposed. In every city that has installed one, ridership has exceeded projections.
In Preston, Trampower is seeking to install a DEMONSTRATION tramway from the Deepdale Retail Park to Miley Tunnel. This demo tramway is being backed with private financing and not the "public purse".

This little stub of about a mile long has a few legitimate purposes:
to prove and improve Trampower Technology, to show their equipment to potential buyers, and if the citizens of Preston approve- extend this one mile long demo from Fishergate to Bluebell way ( about 8 km)

That doesn't sound so daft to me.

People will ride rail systems when it connects from where People are to where they want to be at a cost/benefit ratio that works for them.

No private company is going to put their own money in converting the route from Deepdale to Fishergate (which incidentally, follows the most narrow, congested, and in some places one-way, roads in the city) to trams. Tax payers will be forced to pay for pointless vandalism of the city centre, whilst buses are forced to divert or stop entirely (at yet more inevitable public cost), for the ultimate prize of a journey lasting all of ten minutes which could be walked in twenty.

What this lot want to do is take their trams and find other chumps to play with.

It is clearly - as it has ever been - a vanity project by the latest chancers who see "city status" and thing "bonuses all round, lads".

 

[TramEngineer]

As I stated in my previous post
The Private Investors and Trampower will be creating the Demo Tramway from Milley Tunnel to Deepdale Shopping Park. Then if Public Support is received then the route will be extended from Fishergate to Bluebell. If public support is not received then it will remain a one mile long stub.

Since the only current use of that stub is for fly tippers and graffiti artists, it will nice for someone to clean it up and use it.

You are very correct in that vanity and pride have always been grand motivators for politicians.

 

[Nonsense]

Its not a vanity project. Its a trial and demonstration of technology. Its called innovation and its what drives that repugnant thing called progress.

 

[TramEngineer]

Its not a vanity project. Its a trial and demonstration of technology. Its called innovation and its what drives that repugnant thing called progress.

in·no·va·tion noun \ˌi-nə-ˈvā-shən\
Definition of INNOVATION

1
: the introduction of something new
2
: a new idea, method, or device : novelty
— in·no·va·tion·al adjective

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Innovation

Attached is my attempt at some tram artwork. I have a long way to go before it is good enough

 

[PR1Berske]

As I stated in my previous post
The Private Investors and Trampower will be creating the Demo Tramway from Milley Tunnel to Deepdale Shopping Park. Then if Public Support is received then the route will be extended from Fishergate to Bluebell. If public support is not received then it will remain a one mile long stub.

Since the only current use of that stub is for fly tippers and graffiti artists, it will nice for someone to clean it up and use it.

You are very correct in that vanity and pride have always been grand motivators for politicians.

Let us look at the Fishergate to Bluebell route, then, as that is the intended main aim for the company.

To take trams along this route will require extensive, expensive, and highly disruptive roadworks and construction across almost 2/3rds of the city of Preston. The connected and consequential works required - from many different sectors, including telecoms and utilities, including transport providers who subject to NRSWA and TMA must maintain the integrity of the highway, including local authorities - will generate a bill which will land on the doormats of every single Prestonian taxpayer.

Fishergate is a one-way, narrow shopping street in the middle of the city centre. Bluebell is a failed white elephant on the edge of a motorway junction. Unless these "innovators" with profits on their minds are intending to build a Monorail, I cannot see how their grand scheme will make it from A to B without disruption that could set back Preston twenty-years or more whilst it repairs the damage.

I am bemused by the "stub" being some kind of 'shop window' for this scheme. Given that Ribbleton and Deepdale are over-subscribed with buses anyway, no Tram scheme is going to persuade people to swap one form of transport for another.

 

[TramEngineer]

Bemused or not, I think setting up a demo tramway is a great way to set up both a laboratory and "shop window". As a lab, it would be great to try new technology, methods, and operational ideas. Trampower is a new company and needs the place to develop their system.

As for rail construction in town, Trampower has a new type of rail called LR55 which they claim can be laid at a rate of 100 metres per night with NO disruption to any utilities under the street. I personally believe the 100 metre per night claim is a bit of a hopeful ideal. But even if it is only 25 metres per night, I think that is still faster than any other light rail installation I have heard of. Attached is a 3D rendering I made of LR55 for Trampower.

 

[Invincibles]

This test track will cross Skeffington Road, is that sensible?

I actually think it is a good idea, and if they want to clean that area up then it is a welcome thing. Maybe people will want to take a tram from the retail park towards Deepdale Road, I suppose the main purpose is for testing and not passenger use though. I expect "stations" at both places in the final plan, but perhaps not exactly where any test stop would be

It would be good if they could continue through the tunnel into the University, that would surely provide a market for the retail park. Students are very lazy

Running through there then back up fishergate would surely be a path of less resistance.

The natural route through the old coal yard and onto Ribbleton Lane is very congested as has been mentioned and would really need some sort of grade separation (not impossible to lift it along the grass verge to the west of Ribbleton Lane then over the ring road into the new development. But it would have to be planned.

I still like the idea of a nice PPM along the old route as far out of town as possible.

 

[TramEngineer]

Hi Invincible

I think you have some very good and valid points. Perhaps you could get involved with Trampower to express some of these issues.

 

[Accura]

Fishergate is a one-way, narrow shopping street in the middle of the city centre.

I fail to see how this is relevant. Fishergate at the moment is an absolute mess. There has been hope of a major change for over 2 decades now. Whatever happens, there is going to be disruption. A tram is an ideal way of providing pedestrianisation while maintaining a strong level of public transport access.

Bluebell is a failed white elephant on the edge of a motorway junction. Unless these "innovators" with profits on their minds are intending to build a Monorail, I cannot see how their grand scheme will make it from A to B without disruption that could set back Preston twenty-years or more whilst it repairs the damage.

Set Preston back? I don't think its possible. We're already stuck in the 80's thanks to a complete lack of vision and NIMBY attitudes.

And how is Bluebell a white elephant? Even now in these hard times, businesses are still establishing a presence there. As it happens, Preston's largest ever building is currently under construction at James Hall's new HQ there. Add to that the Booth's head office and the various other setups. Not to mention Redscar park!

I am bemused by the "stub" being some kind of 'shop window' for this scheme. Given that Ribbleton and Deepdale are over-subscribed with buses anyway, no Tram scheme is going to persuade people to swap one form of transport for another.

This line passes through some of the most densely populated parts of Preston, as well as past PNE and Deepale Retail Park (which currently only has one very infrequent bus route serving it I believe). And it goes onwards to a motorway junction and Preston's biggest employment area. It will definitely get used.

Its a major pity that Trampower are planning to branch the scheme off the former line at Deepdale Road and then head down Church Street. Continuing through the Miley Tunnel would allow for a potentially very busy stop at the university.

 

[Deerfold]

Amazing how many new accounts are popping up to defend this scheme in this topic.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

It would be good if they could continue through the tunnel into the University, that would surely provide a market for the retail park. Students are very lazy

That's quite sweeping. I actually found I probably did more exercise (walking) when I was a student than at any other time in my life, largely due to being skint.

 

[Invincibles]

Amazing how many new accounts are popping up to defend this scheme in this topic.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---


That's quite sweeping. I actually found I probably did more exercise (walking) when I was a student than at any other time in my life, largely due to being skint.

It is, I would say that I did more exercise when I was a student as well. Does not help the case if you find reasons why groups would not use the tram though

I had not realised there was any tram coming to Preston, I support PNE and had family in Preston but now I am working in China it is hard to find out what exactly is going on in the city.

It is good to see positive voices supporting the scheme, I think Preston is in a prime location if it can sort out its' infastructure problems (the rail station to bus station corridor is a real issue that desperately needs addressing)

 

[Nonsense]

Amazing how many new accounts are popping up to defend this scheme in this topic.

Where? How many new accounts? I'm just not seeing them.

The main objection to this scheme seems to be that the money should be spent elsewhere in Preston. But its private money. If it wasn't spent here would be invested in some other venture elsewhere, or on a race horse or something.

If the trial fails, the equipment will be removed, and the city of Preston loses nothing. If it succeeds, the city has a lowcost alternative to the bus/car, and maybe a new local industry supplying these units to other cities.

The argument that Fishergate can't handle trams is clutching at straws. Yes, Fishergate is a mess and needs some solution beyond the scope of this tram trial, but in the meantime these vehicles require no more space than the buses currently do. Should the tram proceed as planned, it should act as a catalyst to further improvements, not a barrier.

Every objection I have read toward this scheme has been reactionary nonsense and its right that lurkers and visitors to the site register and express their support for schemes such as this one, which might just offer a solution to some of our transport problems as opposed to just moaning about them.

 

[WatcherZero]

Nonsense, TramEngineer, NewMan83, Accura

4 accounts who only post on this thread!

 

[Nonsense]

I can't speak for everyone obviously but a quick look at the stats show that Newman83 & Accura seem to have one post each and disappeared. Perhaps they are regular visitors and only posted to counter the negativity they fear might derail a worthy trial. TramEngineer, hardly surprisingly with a user name like that, seems to have an interest only in this project. Not a crime.

Not everyone that uses this site has an interest in everything being discussed, and some like myself, have only a casual interest in Railway technology or issues and sometimes register to add their voice to the occasional debate that becomes relevant. This doesn't make the poster a troll, or their opinion any less valid.

For the record, I first posted in 2009 and I am presently considering posting my support for HS2 and reopening Skipton Colne in the relevant threads at somepoint.

As I said before. The negativity toward the project can be shown to be largely unjustified; challenging the nature of the posts but not the content only reinforces that.

This could be a great thing for Preston. It deserves support.

 

[Accura]

Nonsense, TramEngineer, NewMan83, Accura

4 accounts who only post on this thread!

Rubbish. I've been a regular browser on this forum for some time, and since this topic is related to my home town I felt the need to make a contribution. I also, like yourself, am a poster at SSC and have been so for many years. I don't see any possible advantage to one user creating multiple accounts for this particular topic. Its not going to make the project go any faster!

 

[TramEngineer]

I can't speak for everyone obviously but a quick look at the stats show that Newman83 & Accura seem to have one post each and disappeared. Perhaps they are regular visitors and only posted to counter the negativity they fear might derail a worthy trial. TramEngineer, hardly surprisingly with a user name like that, seems to have an interest only in this project. Not a crime.

Perhaps I should speak for myself. I am following many light rail projects worldwide. One specific tram project that I created just received Federal funding and will start construction this coming Spring. I have now begun to create a second Tramway proposal.

I am interested in what is called "ULR" Ultralight Rail.
A website that describes it is found at
http://www.ultralightrail.com/

Through the internet I have been following Trampower's efforts for about 7 years. I drew all but one of the 3D LR55 renderings found on their website.
What I do know is that Trampower needs to have a place to set up a tram laboratory, a place for their ideas and skills to grow and develop.
I think it would be great if their little Demo Tramway would grow up to be a fully operational Tramway to connect the centre of Preston to the M6.
I think it will take many years to materialise.
Some of points of criticisms on this forum have had some items of truth in them. But in my opinion, the high handed treatment of their efforts remind me more of football hooligans instead of a rail discussion forum.

I liked what "Nonsense" said

As I said before. The negativity toward the project can be shown to be largely unjustified; challenging the nature of the posts but not the content only reinforces that.

This could be a great thing for Preston. It deserves support.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
Just because I have been acquainted with the founder of Trampower for many years and done some artwork, does not mean that I financially vested in him company. I have not received or given any money for Trampower efforts.

With regard to the previous negative posts, I have not disputed one fact of them. I have only found their hostile tone to be that of a pouting child that isn't getting their way.
For example:
Yes Trampower's one and only prototype tram caught fire and burned severely. Now it is rebuilt and ready for more tests to eventually obtain its HRMI certification to carry the general public.
Yes the renderings on the PrestonTrampower.co.uk website have some problems with scale and "diminishing lines".
Yes there is a discrepancy with the stated floor height or either 250 mm or 300mm, I am sure the final outcome will be around those 2 points.
yes, their websites are cluttered and need some help. I have sent them private messages about this and they have removed many of the errors.

See I agree there are some items that need to be corrected. I hope the best for Trampower setting up their Demo Tramway and hope that many people may be able to have good paying jobs because of them.

 

[WatcherZero]

I dont have a thing against trams and you will see I have defended them on many other threads, im just of the opinion a small company has bitten off more than it can chew, made some large boasts and is in danger of hurting the industrys image if it falls flat on its face. We really could do with avoiding another Edinburgh right now.

 

[TramEngineer]

Good point, I think you are 1000% correct.
I believe that is why they were deemed not "commercially compliant" when they attempted to bid on a huge streetcar bid for Toronto. It is my opinion they need to bring their Demo Tramway up to full operational maturity and after that go for bigger prizes.

I understand that Tram fiasco in Edinburgh involves a couple Mega Corporation Contractors and the all the other "powers that be". I have had by unemployed neighbour fix some of plumbing problems just as well as the local plumbing company may have and for less money.

I apologise that I have not read your other posts in defence of trams, I will over the next few nights.

 

[WatcherZero]

The Edinburgh problems can be divided into three categories.

Those that are unavoidable and not really their fault such as archeological finds and unmarked graveyards which you will get in any city centuries old.

Those that reflect poor preparatory work, not really their fault but could have been avoided such as massivley underestimating the amount of utilities redirection required by as much as 50-75% some down to old pipes and cables not being marked on maps but again prep surveys should have identified this. Some ground being unstable and requiring reinforcement that soil samples should have picked up on in the planning stage.

Then there are those that are completley their fault, they kept changing the route added a big new interchange all after construction had already started. The Scottish national Government set up a watchdog that was supposed to meet monthly to keep an eye on costs and delays but it has done nothing in two years and essentially washed its hands leaving it to the local council. The projects been used as a political football between the local council and SNP who pledged to oppose it in opposition, reluctantly approved it in government and have been performing a whispering campaign against it ever since.

 

[TramEngineer]

There are some very nice renderings for the Edinburgh tram at
Edinburgh Tram
Hopefully there will be real ones to take photos of and not just renderings

 

[PR1Berske]

I understand public money (which Shambles Inc. claimed would not be used) has been withdrawn by LCC. It is very clear that this whole exercise was a gimmick by Shambles Inc, and Preston will (thankfully) not be bothered by their waste of metal.

 

[PR1Berske]

I understand public money (which Shambles Inc. claimed would not be used) has been withdrawn by LCC. It is very clear that this whole exercise was a gimmick by Shambles Inc, and Preston will (thankfully) not be bothered by their waste of metal.

No shame in quoting myself, seems to died a death, as predicted.