Preston Bus Station

[TheGrandWazoo]

Again, we have the British obsession with direct services. That is only an issue in Britain because the changing experience has traditionally been so bad and you have to pay for the privilege.

Comparing with Hungary is a bit silly given that it is a poor country compared to Western Europe. I'm far more interested in the Netherlands or Switzerland.

Horrible city buses like the Citaro and MAN Lion City?

If the UK is so innovative, why do so many people pay in cash on the bus even now in 2013? Where are the bus transponders changing the lights? Where is the on bus next stop information? Why can't I see out of the window in winter?

No, the obsession with a direct service wasn't because of "paying for the previlege" - I had a 3 day travelcard. It was the time differential and sheer hassle factor of getting onto a Metro, getting off, walking across a bridge and then into a mausoleum of a bus station and waiting in the cold for 15 minutes.

As well as Budapest, I've experienced horrible city buses like Van Hools with wretched urban 90 style seats in Brussels, and Renault ones in Paris with RATP. I've also experienced the local buses of 3 different authorities in the Greater Lisbon area (one of which used Darts - hardly superior).

I don't doubt that there are things we could learn but do I see anything like Stagecoach Gold or the 36 in Harrogate?

 

[radamfi]

I don't doubt that there are things we could learn but do I see anything like Stagecoach Gold or the 36 in Harrogate?

What is so good about Stagecoach Gold? They use cheap British buses that steam up in winter. The fare situation is no different to normal with long delays at bus stops. The only thing different really is the Wi-fi and leather seats. I'm not sure if I prefer leather seats anyway and Wi-fi is normally so slow that I just end up using my own 3G.

I haven't used the Harrogate 36 but I assume it is similar to Stagecoach Gold albeit with Volvo buses. Obviously in most countries you wouldn't be expected to sit on a bus the whole way from Harrogate to Leeds as it would normally be quicker to change onto a metro/tram service at the edge of town. It is undesirable to have a lot of buses in the city centre for air quality reasons. Duplicating the metro/tram is also a waste of resources that could be used for bus services elsewhere.

 

[Deerfold]

What is so good about Stagecoach Gold? They use cheap British buses that steam up in winter. The fare situation is no different to normal with long delays at bus stops. The only thing different really is the Wi-fi and leather seats. I'm not sure if I prefer leather seats anyway and Wi-fi is normally so slow that I just end up using my own 3G.

I haven't used the Harrogate 36 but I assume it is similar to Stagecoach Gold albeit with Volvo buses. Obviously in most countries you wouldn't be expected to sit on a bus the whole way from Harrogate to Leeds as it would normally be quicker to change onto a metro/tram service at the edge of town. It is undesirable to have a lot of buses in the city centre for air quality reasons. Duplicating the metro/tram is also a waste of resources that could be used for bus services elsewhere.

There's plenty of stops between Harrogate and Leeds (and north of Harrogate) that are not convenient for a train station - the 36 goes a completely different route to the rail line - and for comfort I'd go for the 36.

The Stagecoach Gold buses I found to have a premium feel - and they make you feel that the bus company isn't considering you as a second class citizen because you catch a bus - which is the feeling I get on many First routes.

I'm not keen on leather seating though.

 

[radamfi]

There's plenty of stops between Harrogate and Leeds (and north of Harrogate) that are not convenient for a train station - the 36 goes a completely different route to the rail line - and for comfort I'd go for the 36.

I'm assuming that a city the size of Leeds would have a comprehensive metro/tram system meaning that buses don't need to go to the city centre.

The Stagecoach Gold buses I found to have a premium feel - and they make you feel that the bus company isn't considering you as a second class citizen because you catch a bus - which is the feeling I get on many First routes.

The problem is that a quality service should not be restricted to a small number of routes. It should be the norm.

 

[Deerfold]

The problem is that a quality service should not be restricted to a small number of routes. It should be the norm.

I'm not arguing with that - but you asked what was so good about them.

I feel my local bus company (Transdev Keighley) keeps its buses in reasonable shape/comfort/cleanliness no matter what route I'm on - and such that I notice (in a bad way) when I have to get a local First bus - no matter what type of bus, double/single decker)

 

[shinkansen1966]

There are a lot of positive aspects to privatisation within the UK bus industry,.

From the travelling publics' point of view, exactly what have been the positive aspect of bus privatisation and deregulation ? What positive things have happened for the travelling public which can only specifically be acheived with the current arrangments we have for bus service outside London ?

Before answering, bear in mind that one of the few regions of the UK with increased by useage is London. And London now makes up 50% England's bus passenger use, but only 20% of the population. To get a slice of London's growing bus use, what things could other cities be doing ?

 

[TheGrandWazoo]

I'm assuming that a city the size of Leeds would have a comprehensive metro/tram system meaning that buses don't need to go to the city centre.

And this is the problem with a dogmatic approach. I used to get the 36 from Ripon to Leeds (in the bad old days of VRs, Nationals and Olympians) and I can either

a) Get the 36 to Harrogate and then be forced to change onto a train into Leeds i.e. 1055 ex Ripon arr 1130 then 1144 train to Leeds arriving 1223 OR

b) Get the 36 all the way from Ripon to Leeds dep 1055 and arriving at 1220 at a more convenient city centre location....and Leeds isn't that badly located in comparison with some other stations.

Why force people to make a connection? Even removing the cost penalty, why would passengers want to make that sort of change?

Also, and this is a reflection on Victorian train owners budgets, many train stations are peripheral as the land costs for stations were prohibitive. So instead you'd force people out into stations some distance from the main traffic objective (e.g. city centre) - true of Leicester, Newcastle, Derby, Nottingham, Bristol, Plymouth, etc
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

Before answering, bear in mind that one of the few regions of the UK with increased by useage is London. And London now makes up 50% England's bus passenger use, but only 20% of the population. To get a slice of London's growing bus use, what things could other cities be doing ?

Throwing a lot of money at the problem. What London spends on cycling is equivalent to Leeds' entire transport budget!

 

[radamfi]

And this is the problem with a dogmatic approach. I used to get the 36 from Ripon to Leeds (in the bad old days of VRs, Nationals and Olympians) and I can either

a) Get the 36 to Harrogate and then be forced to change onto a train into Leeds i.e. 1055 ex Ripon arr 1130 then 1144 train to Leeds arriving 1223 OR

b) Get the 36 all the way from Ripon to Leeds dep 1055 and arriving at 1220 at a more convenient city centre location....and Leeds isn't that badly located in comparison with some other stations.

Why force people to make a connection? Even removing the cost penalty, why would passengers want to make that sort of change?

Also, and this is a reflection on Victorian train owners budgets, many train stations are peripheral as the land costs for stations were prohibitive. So instead you'd force people out into stations some distance from the main traffic objective (e.g. city centre) - true of Leicester, Newcastle, Derby, Nottingham, Bristol, Plymouth, etc.

It is usually quicker to change onto a train, although in this case it isn't, so either the road is particular quick, the train is particular slow, the bus timetable is unrealistic, or there is too big a difference in time between the bus and train.

However, I wasn't really advocating a change onto the train at Harrogate. I was more thinking of changing onto a frequent metro/tram at the edge of the city which would generally be the way it would be done in most places. Not only would it normally be quicker to change, but it also would mean you are already on the metro/tram network to go wherever you intended to go in the city, which may well not be in the city centre.

Even if none of the above applies, the resources used to duplicate the train could be used instead to provide a more comprehensive network of routes to connect with the train at Harrogate.

 

[TheGrandWazoo]

It is usually quicker to change onto a train, although in this case it isn't, so either the road is particular quick, the train is particular slow, the bus timetable is unrealistic, or there is too big a difference in time between the bus and train.

However, I wasn't really advocating a change onto the train at Harrogate. I was more thinking of changing onto a frequent metro/tram at the edge of the city which would generally be the way it would be done in most places. Not only would it normally be quicker to change, but it also would mean you are already on the metro/tram network to go wherever you intended to go in the city, which may well not be in the city centre.

Even if none of the above applies, the resources used to duplicate the train could be used instead to provide a more comprehensive network of routes to connect with the train at Harrogate.

That is why I said it's a dogmatic approach. For many journeys, the distances aren't that big so the differential in journey times are often small and therefore interchanging is often poor in terms of comparable travel time.

In respect of Harrogate to Leeds, the train service ain't brilliant but the A61 isn't a fab road either. To provide another instance for you that meets your criteria is Ashington to Newcastle. Travel time by bus takes 1h 05 into Haymarket. Yes, you can interchange onto the Metro at Regent Centre interchange but can it beat the bus into Newcastle city centre.

Now you could perhaps try another instance of a bus from upper Rhondda (132) that takes nearly 2 hours to get from Maerdy to Cardiff. It could connect with the train at Pontypridd.

0650 from Maerdy arrives at Pontypridd at 0745 and then has to negotiate the A470 rush hour traffic into Cardiff arriving 0830. You could route the bus via the rail station and it can get you onto the 0754 train arriving in Cardiff at 0824. Question is whether you want to have the hassle of changing (i.e. getting off the bus and then onto a train for a 6 minute benefit).

Where there is a real differential in time and trouble is south east England, especially into central London, helped by the congestion charge and lack of parking! That and where the rail element is longer and the differential is more pronounced.

It does also help that some European cities did have the "benefit" of post war rebuilding to relocate stations! And please, don't get me wrong; there are some areas and instances in the provinces where it can work really well (e.g. some of the Manchester interchanges such as Eccles, or Heworth for Tyne and Wear but these are not as extensive as some may think

 

[Robertj21a]

From the travelling publics' point of view, exactly what have been the positive aspect of bus privatisation and deregulation ? What positive things have happened for the travelling public which can only specifically be acheived with the current arrangments we have for bus service outside London ?

Before answering, bear in mind that one of the few regions of the UK with increased by useage is London. And London now makes up 50% England's bus passenger use, but only 20% of the population. To get a slice of London's growing bus use, what things could other cities be doing ?

I would have thought that the break up of the National Bus Company in itself was a major benefit (for virtually everyone).

The creation of new, private, companies that have to pay much greater attention to the passenger has to be another benefit (Stagecoach is a good example).

Fresh thinking, innovation generally - again Stagecoach.

Focussed management, not having to also deal with the council rubbish collections.

Cheaper fares, through competition.

Improved customer-facing skills - Trent/Transdev/Stagecoach/Brighton drivers

etc etc


Robert

 

[Nick W]

Railways are emotive things and being so, are important to VOTERS. Buses aren't sadly. Hence, getting this circuitously back on topic, why 26 signal boxes were grade II listed in 2013, and yet bus stations....only Preston. Even a check for bus depots showed Stockwell, Bournemouth, Avonmouth, Northenden and Bow (and possibly Jesmond in Newcastle).

What about Newbury Park's bus station?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Newbury_Park_tube_station

 

[Deerfold]

I would have thought that the break up of the National Bus Company in itself was a major benefit (for virtually everyone).

The creation of new, private, companies that have to pay much greater attention to the passenger has to be another benefit (Stagecoach is a good example).

Fresh thinking, innovation generally - again Stagecoach.

Stagecoach yes. Generally? No. Especially not if your local company is First.

Focussed management, not having to also deal with the council rubbish collections.

Cheaper fares, through competition.

Thinking of anywhere in particular?

Long term?

I'm struggling to think of anywhere outside of London where fares haven't massively outstripped inflation.

I know my 1986 10p bus fare (NBC or local authority - I had a choice) to school (adult 20p) is now around £2.20 with either First or Transdev.

The calulator here: http://www.thisismoney.co.uk/money/...tion-calculator-value-money-changed-1900.html

suggests that inflation would make it 50p now.

Improved customer-facing skills - Trent/Transdev/Stagecoach/Brighton drivers

etc etc


Robert

Barton always did have a reputation for friendliness - as did many of the local companies.

Stagecoach and Transdev I'd say varies wildly. My experience of local Firstgroup companies suggests their best drivers are not the ones employed most recently.

 

[WatcherZero]

What about Newbury Park's bus station?

It looks like a army surplus hardened aircraft hanger lol.

 

[Lankyline]

Anyway getting back to Preston Bus Station, one of its biggest failings is that anyone who has to use the bus has route march to get to the railway station ! unless of course you liked the hassle of having to find yet another bus to get to the station, a point that seems to have been missed (even by me till now!)

Why have the incovenience of long walk in all weathers, missed connections etc etc because its not just about access to the city centre only

 

[TheGrandWazoo]

Why have the incovenience of long walk in all weathers, missed connections etc etc because its not just about access to the city centre only

Because the vast majority of passengers ARE looking to access the city centre!
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

Stagecoach yes. Generally? No. Especially not if your local company is First.



Thinking of anywhere in particular?

Long term?

I'm struggling to think of anywhere outside of London where fares haven't massively outstripped inflation.

I know my 1986 10p bus fare (NBC or local authority - I had a choice) to school (adult 20p) is now around £2.20 with either First or Transdev.

The calulator here: http://www.thisismoney.co.uk/money/...tion-calculator-value-money-changed-1900.html

suggests that inflation would make it 50p now.



Barton always did have a reputation for friendliness - as did many of the local companies.

Stagecoach and Transdev I'd say varies wildly. My experience of local Firstgroup companies suggests their best drivers are not the ones employed most recently.

I did the same on some Wilts and Dorset passes and the like (based on info from some 1993 timetables) compared with today. They have gone up broadly with inflation.

However, you have to remember that inflation is not a precise measure. Obviously, fuel has gone up faster than inflation over the last 20 years, especially 1997-2010 because of the fuel duty escalator, and this makes up some 30% of total operating cost. Therefore, bus fares SHOULD have increased by more than inflation.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

What about Newbury Park's bus station?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Newbury_Park_tube_station

Forgotten about that one. So that's two vs. 70 underground stations listed!

 

[Deerfold]

I did the same on some Wilts and Dorset passes and the like (based on info from some 1993 timetables) compared with today. They have gone up broadly with inflation.

However, you have to remember that inflation is not a precise measure. Obviously, fuel has gone up faster than inflation over the last 20 years, especially 1997-2010 because of the fuel duty escalator, and this makes up some 30% of total operating cost. Therefore, bus fares SHOULD have increased by more than inflation.

1993 is well after deregulation. The cost of running a car (assuming you're not very young where insurance has got much more expensive) has not gone up in real terms in that period.

I've looked at a corridor with at least 6 buses an hour from both First and Transdev (and 1 from Yorkshire Tiger) but there's no evidence of lower prices due to competition.

There's few areas where I'd say deregulation and competition has resulted in long-term lower prices and many where it's resulted in higher prices.

 

[TheGrandWazoo]

1993 is well after deregulation. The cost of running a car (assuming you're not very young where insurance has got much more expensive) has not gone up in real terms in that period.

I've looked at a corridor with at least 6 buses an hour from both First and Transdev (and 1 from Yorkshire Tiger) but there's no evidence of lower prices due to competition.

There's few areas where I'd say deregulation and competition has resulted in long-term lower prices and many where it's resulted in higher prices.

I appreciate that de-regulation was 26th October 1986 - I was there

However, without turning the house upside down, these were prices that I could factually substantiate. 20 years is hardly a short period so I think the facts are still pertinent. One might wonder that why fares haven't outstripped inflation despite the market having consolidated greatly in that period?

And like I say, you're working off RPI which is a flawed average when bus operating costs are 30% fuel which have increased more than RPI. Using petrol prices over that time vs RPI

1986 - 38.2 ppl with RPI 96.7
2013 - 138.9 ppl with RPI 248.7

RPI is 2.5 times what it was in 1986 whilst fuel has increases 3.6 times in the same period.

 

[Deerfold]

I appreciate that de-regulation was 26th October 1986 - I was there

However, without turning the house upside down, these were prices that I could factually substantiate. 20 years is hardly a short period so I think the facts are still pertinent. One might wonder that why fares haven't outstripped inflation despite the market having consolidated greatly in that period?

And like I say, you're working off RPI which is a flawed average when bus operating costs are 30% fuel which have increased more than RPI. Using petrol prices over that time vs RPI

1986 - 38.2 ppl with RPI 96.7
2013 - 138.9 ppl with RPI 248.7

RPI is 2.5 times what it was in 1986 whilst fuel has increases 3.6 times in the same period.

I'm arguing the prices have become less competitive. If they're so closely linked to the costs of providing the service then how could companies lower prices due to competition with other companies? I realise it wasn't you that suggested they could but I'm interested in the answer.

So tell me where we're gaining from this competition.

 

[34D]

It is usually quicker to change onto a train, although in this case it isn't, so either the road is particular quick, the train is particular slow, the bus timetable is unrealistic, or there is too big a difference in time between the bus and train.

However, I wasn't really advocating a change onto the train at Harrogate. I was more thinking of changing onto a frequent metro/tram at the edge of the city which would generally be the way it would be done in most places.

You mean by changing at Moortown off the 36 (which travels on the congested roads) and onto the FirstGroup sevens (which go on the guided busway)?

 

[TheGrandWazoo]

I'm arguing the prices have become less competitive. If they're so closely linked to the costs of providing the service then how could companies lower prices due to competition with other companies? I realise it wasn't you that suggested they could but I'm interested in the answer.

So tell me where we're gaining from this competition.

If they're less competitive, against what criteria are you basing that? If you're talking against inflation, then the 20 year example I gave doesn't bare that out.

If you're talking about competition depressing prices, well clearly the laws of supply and demand take over, and margins will fall but usually in the short term only. Instead you have the "threat of competition". As shown by First, the idea of complacency can attract competitors (see Somerset) so businesses like Stagecoach have a) kept standards in terms of frequencies and vehicles higher to deter anyone and b) sought to deter competition by competing very hard against any incursion.

First have learnt about the elasticity of demand (eventually, it seemed). In the latter Lockhead years, fares were increasing beyond what the market would bear, hence why they're actually cutting fares now to try to improve things. In that way, there is a natural brake to how much you can charge people.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

You mean by changing at Moortown off the 36 (which travels on the congested roads) and onto the FirstGroup sevens (which go on the guided busway)?

Will that a) dissuade passengers and b) be any quicker than a through route when interchange time is factored in?

It is only 17 mins on the 36 so unlikely to have any time advantage and then you have the faffing of changing!

 

[radamfi]

You mean by changing at Moortown off the 36 (which travels on the congested roads) and onto the FirstGroup sevens (which go on the guided busway)?

No, I was assuming that you would change onto a fast underground metro or fast tram service, which doesn't exist in Leeds, but which would usually in a city the size of Leeds outside the UK. It is crazy how most UK cities have such a high dependency on buses, leading to city centres crammed with buses, which is bad for air quality. It is far more usual outside the UK for buses to provide links into tram and metro services.

 

[Lankyline]

Because the vast majority of passengers ARE looking to access the city centre!

Definitely missed the point in my post, i said its NOT just about access to the city centre only, by the way your comment suggests you have facts to back up the comment.

Its about having a bloody great concrete blot on the landscape at the opposite end of town that was built seemingly with no regard to other forms of transport eg a large mainline railway station !

You have also got to remember "politics" plays a large part in this and at that time, you cannot discount the possible effects "outside" influence

 

[shinkansen1966]

It is typically British to assume that nothing can be done, and that is why things don't change. The fact is that high quality local transport is possible and can be seen with our own eyes not very far from the UK borders. I'm not asking for the world, only what others take for granted. .

Keep an eye on what's happening in the WY Metro area.
http://www.wymetro.com/qualitycontracts/
http://www.m-card.co.uk/home/

There is hope.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
Here's an example of the effect of British bus deregulation.

Manchester's day passes
http://www.tfgm.com/journey_planning/Tickets/Pages/tickets_day_adult.aspx
22 different adult tickets. Count them

Dresden's day tickets
http://www.dvb.de/en/Tickets-Fares/Overview-of-Tickets-00396/#one-day
8 different tickets including one for families and for night travel
and all valid before 09:30.

 

[TheGrandWazoo]

Because the vast majority of passengers ARE looking to access the city centre!

Definitely missed the point in my post, i said its NOT just about access to the city centre only, by the way your comment suggests you have facts to back up the comment.

Well, yes. Number of passengers using Preston bus station is over 4 times the total number of passengers using Preston rail station.

Assuming that EACH AND EVERY RAIL PASSENGER arrives by bus currently i.e. the car parks are empty and no taxis etc, then three quarters MUST be heading somewhere else....like the city centre.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

Keep an eye on what's happening in the WY Metro area.
http://www.wymetro.com/qualitycontracts/
http://www.m-card.co.uk/home/

There is hope.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
Here's an example of the effect of British bus deregulation.

Manchester's day passes
http://www.tfgm.com/journey_planning/Tickets/Pages/tickets_day_adult.aspx
22 different adult tickets. Count them

Dresden's day tickets
http://www.dvb.de/en/Tickets-Fares/Overview-of-Tickets-00396/#one-day
8 different tickets including one for families and for night travel
and all valid before 09:30.

Aahhh....so people in Dresden have less choice.....

 

[Deerfold]

Well, yes. Number of passengers using Preston bus station is over 4 times the total number of passengers using Preston rail station.

Assuming that EACH AND EVERY RAIL PASSENGER arrives by bus currently i.e. the car parks are empty and no taxis etc, then three quarters MUST be heading somewhere else....like the city centre.

Did you mean to quote yourself there?

Aahhh....so people in Dresden have less choice.....

Yes. More choice is not always good. People in Dresden can get a cheaper local ticket or a network-wide ticket without having to check who operates the bus route, if there's two companies who operate it, if it's the same company when they come back and if they'll accept the ticket.

 

[TheGrandWazoo]

Did you mean to quote yourself there?

In a word, no. Nor do I speak in the third person

Think it was a quirk of responding to L/Line's quoting of me.

 

[radamfi]

Keep an eye on what's happening in the WY Metro area.
http://www.wymetro.com/qualitycontracts/
http://www.m-card.co.uk/home/

There is hope.

I'm not too sure to be honest. I get the feeling that Metro are going to settle for a Partnership deal. I think they were only pushing for the QC as a bargaining chip to secure the best Partnership deal they could. Tyne & Wear may actually be more likely now to start the first QC.

Even if a QC happens, I would still be sceptical whether it would actually work given a low level of funding. Proper funding is essential if you want a Swiss level of patronage despite high car ownership. And because it is in Britain, they still won't understand the need for good integration and no penalty for changing buses etc. Don't forget, this was no different before 1986.

As for the smartcard scheme for West Yorkshire, this will only be of significant interest when it works for pay as you go. It they do manage to do it, presumably it would have to work using touch in, touch out like the Dutch system or Trent Barton, as flat fares are highly unlikely even under a QC. What would be really stupid would be to follow the Dublin system where you have to tell the driver the destination and the driver deducts the fare from the card. That would be little better than what we have now.

 

[Lankyline]

http://t.co/XNJulcfxzj. Latest update from lancs evening post, interesting comment from council leader on the minister's position, can't understand why council didn't object to EH application in the first place, but it means we're stuck with this blot on the landscape !

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

http://t.co/XNJulcfxzj. Latest update from lancs evening post, interesting comment from council leader on the minister's position, can't understand why council didn't object to EH application in the first place, but it means we're stuck with this blot on the landscape !

The Government generally are telling local authorities to trim back their budgets in order that less monies need to be forthcoming from the coffers of Central Government to be paid to these local authorities. Yet a Governmental minister seems to have felt no need to visit Preston despite all the media coverage on how much the annual running costs to maintain Preston bus station will now still need to be met by the council. Perhaps he will claim that his senior departmental civil servants did not feel it necessary to inform him of the situation (shades of a script featuring Sir Humphrey Appleby spring to mind)

English Heritage, the prime movers in this debacle and the organisation with no monies to back up their judgemental listing, will now be making a simulation of Pontius Pilate at the judgement of Jesus Christ and be seen to be"washing their hands of the matter".:roll:

 

[Lankyline]

Paul, remember the T Dan Smith debacle ? i wonder if the bus station was built using strict tendering policy guidelines in the first place, just mere speculation on my part of course !

The issue now is support funding from the lottery etc as this doesn't come out of govrnment coffers, so they can politically justify not funding a folly, but would local MP's ask questions in the house, somehow i don't think so, the council now have to waste time & rsources on funding applications and financial contributions to a building that provides no justifiable financial return.