Preston Bus Station

[snail]

Yes but can't you see the parallels.

No. And I haven't drawn any from elsewhere, that's other peoples' prerogative.

All I know is that Preston have a huge building that looks nice from a distance if the sun is in the right direction but is hopeless as a bus station or car park.

 

[TheGrandWazoo]

No. And I haven't drawn any from elsewhere, that's other peoples' prerogative.

All I know is that Preston have a huge building that looks nice from a distance if the sun is in the right direction but is hopeless as a bus station or car park.

You're right, it is other people's prerogative...yet felt the need to call it irrelevant? You seem confused

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

Yeah, and let's do the same with Bristol Temple Meads. That isn't close to the city centre, it's old, and that Neo-Gothic is so 1815?

Now then, let's be sensible about this. Look at the services that pass through Bristol Temple Meads railway station, both local and long-distance.

Preston bus station and the bus services operating from there are not at all comparable in any way whatsoever.

 

[TheGrandWazoo]

Now then, let's be sensible about this. Look at the services that pass through Bristol Temple Meads railway station, both local and long-distance.

Preston bus station and the bus services operating from there are not at all comparable in any way whatsoever.

Ok, another example. As was released this week, there was a plan to have a central station in Manchester in the post war years, made possible by demolishing the town hall. The town planners at the time thought it "sooty and dirty and not fit for purpose". Sound familiar? Of course, it is GII listed now and no one in their right mind would propose its demolition

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-manchester-24330693

Another fantastic scheme was to close Marylebone station and convert it to a coach station, and then demolish/dispose of VCS. Crazy ideas that had official backing - you can scarcely credit it!

Look at the rest of the country. Is there any bus station that is worthy of listing? People talk of a bus station like Burnley, Nelson or Chorley.... you can name any of them as they're interchangeable, homogenized and characterless. Also, is new always better... many of the new bus stations are poorly designed and cause of all manner of problems for drivers. Oxford and Newcastle (Eldon Sq) are notable for this.

Preston bus station is a careworn structure. However, can you imagine what your house would look like if nothing was spent on it for 20+ years. You'd still have a top loading Betamax VCR in the corner of your room, underneath the huge telly with the small screen!

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

Preston bus station only dates back to the 1968/9 period. If you are going to use a level playing field, use examples that are of that same time period.

 

[TheGrandWazoo]

Preston bus station only dates back to the 1968/9 period. If you are going to use a level playing field, use examples that are of that same time period.

Yes but when the plans to demolish Manchester town hall were mooted, it too was a) not that old - only 68 years old and b) Victorian high Gothic was seen as very old hat. However, fashions change!

Victoria Coach Station was only 52 years old when its closure/demolition/disposal was also proposed. Or does it have to absolutely 45 years old for a parallel to be drawn

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

Yes but when the plans to demolish Manchester town hall were mooted, it too was a) not that old - only 68 years old and b) Victorian high Gothic was seen as very old hat. However, fashions change!

Manchester Town Hall is not a bus station and we have to remember that this thread is discussing a bus station when we are making comparisons. The former Manchester coach station that used to be situated on Lower Moseley Street had a certain raison d'etre as it was situated next to Manchester Central railway station, but the closure of the railway station there took that away.

 

[TheGrandWazoo]

Manchester Town Hall is not a bus station and we have to remember that this thread is discussing a bus station when we are making comparisons. The former Manchester coach station that used to be situated on Lower Moseley Street had a certain raison d'etre as it was situated next to Manchester Central railway station, but the closure of the railway station there took that away.

Yes, but even an intelligent person (and I do sincerely class you as that) must be able to concede that there is a parallel between buildings that, in one age, are considered unfashionable and not fit for purpose yet when you look at them later, you wonder how anyone could've contemplated their demise.

There are very few bus stations that anyone has considered worthy of saving. I can think of the old Durham bus station, and VCS. Struggling for much else.

On a non political point, it is important to see how some now view Preston bus station as a dump. I'm old enough to remember some of the most dreadful bus stations (e.g. Carlisle, Darlington, Edinburgh, Birmingham Bull Ring, old Nottm Vic, old Burnley, old Leeds Central, Newcastle Marlborough Cres, Newcastle Worswick St). Some of those were public health hazards, with either emphesema or cholera being threats!! Things have changed a lot since the 1980's. Mind you, some of the new ones aren't much better - Sunderland, tsk!

 

[Mugby]

Many local councilors are extremely disingenuous about such matters.

They con people into believing it's their intention to provide a brand new sparkling, wonderful bus station when their real intention is to release the old site for lucrative retail or commercial development.

How many times has the new bus station ended up being an afterthought, only half it's former size!

 

[snail]

Ok, another example. As was released this week, there was a plan to have a central station in Manchester in the post war years, made possible by demolishing the town hall. The town planners at the time thought it "sooty and dirty and not fit for purpose". Sound familiar? Of course, it is GII listed now and no one in their right mind would propose its demolition

If you look at the 1945 plan closely the 'central station' was to be named Trinity Station, which gives a clue to its location on the outskirts of the city. Not at all central but a replacement for Victoria, Exchange and Salford stations. As for the town hall its replacement was proposed as a landmark building in the same location with a sweeping boulevard down to the river.

I wouldn't put Preston Bus Station in the same category as Waterhouse's Town Hall, nor am I supporting the demolition of the latter (which incidentally is Grade I listed not Grade II). There were a lot of planning mistakes made in earlier decades, such as deciding to build large concrete structures that do not stand the test of time.

 

[TheGrandWazoo]

If you look at the 1945 plan closely the 'central station' was to be named Trinity Station, which gives a clue to its location on the outskirts of the city. Not at all central but a replacement for Victoria, Exchange and Salford stations. As for the town hall its replacement was proposed as a landmark building in the same location with a sweeping boulevard down to the river.

I wouldn't put Preston Bus Station in the same category as Waterhouse's Town Hall, nor am I supporting the demolition of the latter (which incidentally is Grade I listed not Grade II). There were a lot of planning mistakes made in earlier decades, such as deciding to build large concrete structures that do not stand the test of time.

You're quite right. I meant single station rather than central. However, the fact was that they did seriously contemplate losing the Town Hall. "Not fit for purpose" was the phrase used!

I don't subscribe that every building needs saving, and some of the brutalist structures (Basil Spence did some dreadful tower blocks in Glasgow, plus the Tricorn in Portsmouth) did need to bite the dust.

However, PBS is notable. Not too everyone's taste, I appreciate, but show me the bus station that anyone has tried to save (excl VCS and the old Durham bus station).

 

[Lankyline]

In an attempt to get this thread back on track (no pun intended) Preston Bus station serves no effective purpose now or indeed has done in the last 20 years ! It was simply a politically expediant decision by the council at the time to say look what we can do, without any thought to its future effectiveness as a transport hub or any relation to an "integrated transport policy"
One thing i can't remember is what was on the land before the station was built, maybe Paul could help me out here ?
The answer still remains the same demolish this concrete mess asap, or how about the RAF using it for target practice ?? good way to clear Tithebarn as well !!

 

[chorleyjeff]

In an attempt to get this thread back on track (no pun intended) Preston Bus station serves no effective purpose now or indeed has done in the last 20 years ! It was simply a politically expediant decision by the council at the time to say look what we can do, without any thought to its future effectiveness as a transport hub or any relation to an "integrated transport policy"
One thing i can't remember is what was on the land before the station was built, maybe Paul could help me out here ?
The answer still remains the same demolish this concrete mess asap, or how about the RAF using it for target practice ?? good way to clear Tithebarn as well !!

I remember doing CPO valuations of slum clearance dwellings in that area. Also Commercial property with no cultural, economic or architectural merit. And remember the old Tithebarn St bus station - what a slum that was - and how the Cororation bus stops were distributed at random around the town centre, and there was also the Starchouse(spelling?) open area random standings for coaches and Scout buses?
The new bus station was seen as a great improvement on the old arrangements even if it could have been better located.

 

[Lankyline]

I remember doing CPO valuations of slum clearance dwellings in that area. Also Commercial property with no cultural, economic or architectural merit. And remember the old Tithebarn St bus station - what a slum that was - and how the Cororation bus stops were distributed at random around the town centre, and there was also the Starchouse(spelling?) open area random standings for coaches and Scout buses?
The new bus station was seen as a great improvement on the old arrangements even if it could have been better located.

And their folks is the real point again, location, location, location ! The old east lancs goods yard was probably the only truly convenient location, but hindsight is a wonderful thing and we are also now used to the term "integrated transport" which was a phrase that never really existed at the time of the planning of this concrete eyesore.

Part of the "new" ring road planning at the time was to create easier access to the bus station, if they had built on the EL yard, then road planning & layout would, i believe, have been radically different to what it is today.

In fact you could have now have had integrated train, bus & tram ! (Trampower anyone?) Still why keep something that looks good to some is hated by others (inc me) but costs a fortune to maintain, is inefficient & impractical for its intended purpose, one can only hope for concrete "cancer" to set in.

 

[TheGrandWazoo]

And their folks is the real point again, location, location, location ! The old east lancs goods yard was probably the only truly convenient location, but hindsight is a wonderful thing and we are also now used to the term "integrated transport" which was a phrase that never really existed at the time of the planning of this concrete eyesore.

Part of the "new" ring road planning at the time was to create easier access to the bus station, if they had built on the EL yard, then road planning & layout would, i believe, have been radically different to what it is today.

In fact you could have now have had integrated train, bus & tram ! (Trampower anyone?) Still why keep something that looks good to some is hated by others (inc me) but costs a fortune to maintain, is inefficient & impractical for its intended purpose, one can only hope for concrete "cancer" to set in.

I don't know exactly how you can say that the bus station hasn't fulfilled its role as a bus station for the last 20 years. Clearly, it has. Be careful what you wish for as experience has proven that a bus station as part of a larger retail development is usually at the expense of the practicalities of the bus station. Recent examples include Bath - too few stands and layover, Newcastle Haymarket - same as Bath, Newcastle Eldon Square - inability for drivers to manoeuvre safely, Oxford - too small and dangerous design, Morpeth - dangerous design.

On a wider point, we do seem to have this obsession with looking at the location of bus stations and believing that it HAS to be placed next to the train station because of "integrated transport". In reality, the place for a bus station is in the town or city centre as that is where the majority of passengers wish to travel to and from. Appreciate that in Preston, it's actually "as broad as it's long" in that respect so relocation wouldn't necessarily a bad thing in that respect.

Of course, in other countries, the fact is that transport services are often complimentary rather than competitive, helped by the fact that all services are state owned, and that to make many journeys, you are forced to interchange as direct buses are not available.

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

One thing i can't remember is what was on the land before the station was built, maybe Paul could help me out here ?

Looking at the immediate post-war period up to the 1960's. my memory recalls streets of terraced housing and the site of the Phoenix Iron Works.

Hope this helps.

 

[Lankyline]

Looking at the immediate post-war period up to the 1960's. my memory recalls streets of terraced housing and the site of the Phoenix Iron Works.

Hope this helps.

Thanks Paul, maybe they should have left it alone ! The iron works could have been worth saving as a reminder of our industrial heritage instead of that bloody great mess !:roll:
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

I don't know exactly how you can say that the bus station hasn't fulfilled its role as a bus station for the last 20 years. Clearly, it has. Be careful what you wish for as experience has proven that a bus station as part of a larger retail development is usually at the expense of the practicalities of the bus station. Recent examples include Bath - too few stands and layover, Newcastle Haymarket - same as Bath, Newcastle Eldon Square - inability for drivers to manoeuvre safely, Oxford - too small and dangerous design, Morpeth - dangerous design.

On a wider point, we do seem to have this obsession with looking at the location of bus stations and believing that it HAS to be placed next to the train station because of "integrated transport". In reality, the place for a bus station is in the town or city centre as that is where the majority of passengers wish to travel to and from. Appreciate that in Preston, it's actually "as broad as it's long" in that respect so relocation wouldn't necessarily a bad thing in that respect.

Of course, in other countries, the fact is that transport services are often complimentary rather than competitive, helped by the fact that all services are state owned, and that to make many journeys, you are forced to interchange as direct buses are not available.

Sorry going to have to take issue with you here on a few points,
1. What retail development ? there was never a plan for the original
build to be incorporated into a retail development, the Tithebarn project that was planned is a 21 century idea not the 1970's, St Johns retail development was not part of an overall retail development concept.

2. If you refer to the fact that buses arrive & depart then yes, apart from that it has failed in all other aspects namely. location, ease of access to main retail areas, safety & security (ever been in this place when its dark!)
poor accessibility, (steep underground subway link, muggers paradise) poor disability access etc etc sorry nearly forgot, its also on the list of best 100 places to jump off.

3. If someone had the foresight to locate it in the EL goods area, then we would all be saying how farsighted the council were, given what we know know, plus its a damn sight more convenient to the centre of town than its current location.

 

[radamfi]

On a wider point, we do seem to have this obsession with looking at the location of bus stations and believing that it HAS to be placed next to the train station because of "integrated transport". In reality, the place for a bus station is in the town or city centre as that is where the majority of passengers wish to travel to and from. Appreciate that in Preston, it's actually "as broad as it's long" in that respect so relocation wouldn't necessarily a bad thing in that respect.

Who's got this obsession? Certainly not the UK, as it is almost unique in not having buses located next to the railway station. Ireland is also an exception, but that copies the UK.

You have to ask yourself what the bus station is for. If you have a big 'palace' for buses, then you are assuming that everybody who want to use the bus will walk from other parts of the town centre to use it. There's no harm having a bus station in the town centre, as long as all buses go to the railway station as well. Some places in Germany have a 'bushof', but all buses also serve the station in small to medium sized towns. In bigger cities buses are part of a mesh of transport so do not all go to a single node.

Of course, in other countries, the fact is that transport services are often complimentary rather than competitive, helped by the fact that all services are state owned, and that to make many journeys, you are forced to interchange as direct buses are not available.

In the Netherlands, nearly all buses are tendered out to private firms, but are still regulated.

Inevitably, you can't run a direct bus from everywhere to everywhere, so interchange is inevitable. In Britain, we make interchange difficult by making people pay more to change buses and make people wait a long time between connections. In advanced European countries, they don't make people pay extra to change and they make connections convenient.

 

[chorleyjeff]

And their folks is the real point again, location, location, location ! The old east lancs goods yard was probably the only truly convenient location, but hindsight is a wonderful thing and we are also now used to the term "integrated transport" which was a phrase that never really existed at the time of the planning of this concrete eyesore.

Part of the "new" ring road planning at the time was to create easier access to the bus station, if they had built on the EL yard, then road planning & layout would, i believe, have been radically different to what it is today.

In fact you could have now have had integrated train, bus & tram ! (Trampower anyone?) Still why keep something that looks good to some is hated by others (inc me) but costs a fortune to maintain, is inefficient & impractical for its intended purpose, one can only hope for concrete "cancer" to set in.

Is it much further from theEL yard to Fishergate M&S than from the bus station?
And the bus station is closeer to the markets, town hall, Friargate and markets. And were the railways not thought to be in terminal decline and nearly irrelevant when the bus station was built?

 

[TheGrandWazoo]

Thanks Paul, maybe they should have left it alone ! The iron works could have been worth saving as a reminder of our industrial heritage instead of that bloody great mess !:roll:
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---


Sorry going to have to take issue with you here on a few points,
1. What retail development ? there was never a plan for the original
build to be incorporated into a retail development, the Tithebarn project that was planned is a 21 century idea not the 1970's, St Johns retail development was not part of an overall retail development concept.

2. If you refer to the fact that buses arrive & depart then yes, apart from that it has failed in all other aspects namely. location, ease of access to main retail areas, safety & security (ever been in this place when its dark!)
poor accessibility, (steep underground subway link, muggers paradise) poor disability access etc etc sorry nearly forgot, its also on the list of best 100 places to jump off.

3. If someone had the foresight to locate it in the EL goods area, then we would all be saying how farsighted the council were, given what we know know, plus its a damn sight more convenient to the centre of town than its current location.

Let me take issue back

1. The Tithebarn redevelopment (the 21st century one) was predicated on a retail plan. That's why I said "be careful what you wish for" i.e. developers place scant regard on providing enough space for bus stations.

2. I have been there, summer and winter, in the dark and very occasional sunshine. However, most of those issues that you mention are things that could've been sorted by now but they didn't spend the money as they were hoping to make a packet on the site! As for suicides...... well if that's your criteria well then 50 or so people each year who commit suicide at either Kings Cross or Victoria tube stations must point to the immediate closure of those stations too?

3. Fair enough but hindsight is a wonderful gift
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

Is it much further from theEL yard to Fishergate M&S than from the bus station?
And the bus station is closeer to the markets, town hall, Friargate and markets. And were the railways not thought to be in terminal decline and nearly irrelevant when the bus station was built?

Very true in all aspects, especially the latter point!
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

Who's got this obsession? Certainly not the UK, as it is almost unique in not having buses located next to the railway station. Ireland is also an exception, but that copies the UK.

You have to ask yourself what the bus station is for. If you have a big 'palace' for buses, then you are assuming that everybody who want to use the bus will walk from other parts of the town centre to use it. There's no harm having a bus station in the town centre, as long as all buses go to the railway station as well. Some places in Germany have a 'bushof', but all buses also serve the station in small to medium sized towns. In bigger cities buses are part of a mesh of transport so do not all go to a single node.



In the Netherlands, nearly all buses are tendered out to private firms, but are still regulated.

Inevitably, you can't run a direct bus from everywhere to everywhere, so interchange is inevitable. In Britain, we make interchange difficult by making people pay more to change buses and make people wait a long time between connections. In advanced European countries, they don't make people pay extra to change and they make connections convenient.

Sorry, I should've been clearer. The "obsession" was more aimed at some enthusiasts who populate this and other pages. We do get very hung up about this, about the merits of integration yet the vast, vast majority aren't bothered; they just want to get to down and go to work/shop. I'd point out that Ireland doesn't copy the UK really; many towns don't have bus stations and so serve roadside stops. Sometimes, they run through to what is called the "bus station" but this is actually the yard in front of the depot (e.g. Ennis) which is co-located with the railway because of the historic CIE link. Similarly, in the North, where the bus station in somewhere like Dungannon or Newcastle is actually the bus depot yard next to the now gone rail station

A "palace for buses"? A fun idea! However, the idea of sending buses out to some peripheral rail station to layover doesn't really work. If it isn't central, then you're sending buses out of their way. More time, more fuel and possible a higher PVR. For somewhere like Burnley, that would be difficult and for somewhere like Crewe, downright barking!

Where you can accommodate a bus station with a rail station, then great. However, people don't like interchanging by nature. In a regulated environment, you can force them, and then people can say "look, it works". Take that away, even with price parity, and that the perceived popularity does ebb away.

 

[radamfi]

Sorry, I should've been clearer. The "obsession" was more aimed at some enthusiasts who populate this and other pages. We do get very hung up about this, about the merits of integration yet the vast, vast majority aren't bothered; they just want to get to down and go to work/shop. I'd point out that Ireland doesn't copy the UK really; many towns don't have bus stations and so serve roadside stops. Sometimes, they run through to what is called the "bus station" but this is actually the yard in front of the depot (e.g. Ennis) which is co-located with the railway because of the historic CIE link. Similarly, in the North, where the bus station in somewhere like Dungannon or Newcastle is actually the bus depot yard next to the now gone rail station

A "palace for buses"? A fun idea! However, the idea of sending buses out to some peripheral rail station to layover doesn't really work. If it isn't central, then you're sending buses out of their way. More time, more fuel and possible a higher PVR. For somewhere like Burnley, that would be difficult and for somewhere like Crewe, downright barking!

Where you can accommodate a bus station with a rail station, then great. However, people don't like interchanging by nature. In a regulated environment, you can force them, and then people can say "look, it works". Take that away, even with price parity, and that the perceived popularity does ebb away.

But you are assuming that work/shop is near the bus station. Chances are, it isn't, and you need to change buses or between buses and trains to get there. So interchanging is a necessary evil, and so must be catered for as well as possible. UK buses are only in the market for travelling to and from a bus station. It appears that is what UK bus passengers want, but people wanting to make different journeys make alternative arrangements, or don't make the journey at all.

The Swiss/Dutch etc. public transport network is useful for other journeys because of the good connectivity. The connectivity of the Swiss public transport network is the secret of their world class reputation.

Where the town centre is more or less on the way to the station, then buses might make a small detour to serve town centre stops. Otherwise you can always change at the station onto a bus to the town centre if you happen to want to go there, and of course you won't wait long for the connection, and you won't pay extra for the privilege.

I say 'palace' for buses because that is effectively what is built for them in places like Greater Manchester. We spend an absolute fortune on these world class facilities, but ignore the basics like good connections between buses, between buses and trains, penalty free bus to bus interchange, bus priority and fast boarding times.

As I said, the UK is unusual in deregulation and keeping buses away from trains. Given that most other countries do these the other way around, which do you think is most likely to be the best?

 

[youngboy]

At least when your terms finished at the prison the bus station is only a short walk over the road. If the bus station was moved that would be infringing the human rights of the prisoners surely

 

[Clip]

You have to ask yourself what the bus station is for. If you have a big 'palace' for buses, then you are assuming that everybody who want to use the bus will walk from other parts of the town centre to use it. There's no harm having a bus station in the town centre, as long as all buses go to the railway station as well. Some places in Germany have a 'bushof', but all buses also serve the station in small to medium sized towns. In bigger cities buses are part of a mesh of transport so do not all go to a single node.
.

Out of interest why should all buses go to the train station? Thats just not practical and would increase congestion as not every station in every town or city is ideally located either nor has the best road network outside it to accomodate.

So again, why should all buses that go into a city or town centre also go to the train station?

 

[radamfi]

Out of interest why should all buses go to the train station? Thats just not practical and would increase congestion as not every station in every town or city is ideally located either nor has the best road network outside it to accomodate.

So again, why should all buses that go into a city or town centre also go to the train station?

I explained it in great detail in my earlier posts. I shouldn't need to explain it. Only in Britain would I need to explain it.

If, for whatever reason, there is no space then I'm very sorry to say that many millions of pounds will be required to fix this grave mistake. Of course, you don't have to do it, but if you don't then you won't have Swiss quality public transport.

 

[TheGrandWazoo]

I explained it in great detail in my earlier posts. I shouldn't need to explain it. Only in Britain would I need to explain it.

But you are assuming that work/shop is near the bus station. Chances are, it isn't, and you need to change buses or between buses and trains to get there. So interchanging is a necessary evil, and so must be catered for as well as possible. UK buses are only in the market for travelling to and from a bus station. It appears that is what UK bus passengers want, but people wanting to make different journeys make alternative arrangements, or don't make the journey at all.

If, for whatever reason, there is no space then I'm very sorry to say that many millions of pounds will be required to fix this grave mistake. Of course, you don't have to do it, but if you don't then you won't have Swiss quality public transport.

Public transport works on the mass movement of individuals. You can't factor in each and every permutation and so you may well believe in interchanging. However, the vast majority of journeys are to/from the town centre and so it makes sense for bus stations to be there; whether you actually need a bus station is a moot point for some.

As was also alluded to, there is a cost in running vehicles to some peripheral location on the edge of a town centre, and this can often be for relatively little actual demand.

If you can have a co-located bus and rail station in the centre of town, then great. Similarly, if the rail station can easily be served by passing bus services, great too. However, we shouldn't lose sight that public transport is a mass medium and that whilst there are now a myriad of fragmented transport destinations, town centres remain the primary traffic objective.

 

[radamfi]

town centres remain the primary traffic objective.

UK Buses currently cater very well for that market. But in terms of overall transport needs (i.e. including trips made by car), the town centre is only a minority of trips. The British bus industry has mostly decided only to cater for that one market and give up on the rest.

 

[TheGrandWazoo]

UK Buses currently cater very well for that market. But in terms of overall transport needs (i.e. including trips made by car), the town centre is only a minority of trips. The British bus industry has mostly decided only to cater for that one market and give up on the rest.

Yes, but public transport can never be all things to all men. That's what a car is.

I don't know how old you are but in my time, we've seen massive demographic, social and economic changes. As such, we've seen the decline or end of the large employer site generally (e.g. shipyards, coalmines, manufacturing industry). Instead, we have a load of smaller business parks that are difficult for buses to serve. Similarly, there is now an acceptance of travelling further afield to work; journey to work length has lengthened appreciably over the last 30 years. Add to that the planning guidelines (e.g. pre PPG13) that promoted out of town superstores and retail parks and it all makes things more difficult for buses, and that's why many operators have focussed on simplified networks centred on the main shopping and commercial area in town.

 

[radamfi]

Yes, but public transport can never be all things to all men. That's what a car is.

I don't know how old you are but in my time, we've seen massive demographic, social and economic changes. As such, we've seen the decline or end of the large employer site generally (e.g. shipyards, coalmines, manufacturing industry). Instead, we have a load of smaller business parks that are difficult for buses to serve. Similarly, there is now an acceptance of travelling further afield to work; journey to work length has lengthened appreciably over the last 30 years. Add to that the planning guidelines (e.g. pre PPG13) that promoted out of town superstores and retail parks and it all makes things more difficult for buses, and that's why many operators have focussed on simplified networks centred on the main shopping and commercial area in town.

The point I have been trying to get across is that, with a carefully planned, interconnecting network, public transport really can cater for almost all trips.

I'm 38 and like most people here, born and brought up in the UK, so I just accepted all the usual British quirks, like paying in cash on the bus, paying on the next bus, and not really expecting buses to connect, or to connect with trains. I had never even thought of these things. But when I started travelling seriously in mainland Europe, I realised that these things were all pretty bizarre.

It does cost more money to run such a network. You need increased layover times to ensure that buses connect at hubs such as railway stations. You need more reliable journey times to ensure that connections are maintained.

You can see for yourself. The best way is to explore bus networks in the Netherlands or Switzerland, but you can still do it in the comfort of your home by downloading bus maps and timetables from the websites.

I would recommend reading Transport for Suburbia:

http://www.amazon.co.uk/Transport-Suburbia-Beyond-Automobile-Age/dp/1844077403

For years it has been widely accepted that public transport cannot be a significant player in British city transport because of low density and poor town planning. What I was stunned to read was that British cities are actually higher density than many European cities held as up as model examples of good city transport and good town planning. British cities, in world terms, appear to have quite favourable layouts because of historical strict planning regulations, which has only been partly undone by the laissez-faire planning rules of the 80s. So, in theory, British cities should be in a better position than cities in most other developed countries.

So, as the book explained in great detail, density is relatively unimportant to the success or otherwise of public transport. That is good news as it means you don't have to knock down cities and rebuild them at high densities as many environmentalists (as well as myself) used to think. Success is mostly determined by how good the 'network effect' is. Even in low density cities, you can design a network where you can go from anywhere to anywhere in the city by having a relatively small number of regular routes with convenient interchanges with free transfers for single journeys, not just day tickets. That way passengers aren't scared of changing so public transport effectively connects a wide range of origins and destinations. Having lots of meandering routes is a bad idea.

 

[Lankyline]

Is it much further from theEL yard to Fishergate M&S than from the bus station?
And the bus station is closeer to the markets, town hall, Friargate and markets. And were the railways not thought to be in terminal decline and nearly irrelevant when the bus station was built?

About the same as the crow flies but easier to walk to from the old EL yard plus no subway to negotiate or take your life in your hans walking across the corner of the bus exit !, but strange how it was nearer to the town hall

 

[Clip]

I explained it in great detail in my earlier posts. I shouldn't need to explain it. Only in Britain would I need to explain it.

If, for whatever reason, there is no space then I'm very sorry to say that many millions of pounds will be required to fix this grave mistake. Of course, you don't have to do it, but if you don't then you won't have Swiss quality public transport.

I don twant Swiss quality transport thanks. I think we do rather well with what we have got no matter how much a bunch of enthusiasts moan and groan on transport forums.

Now you explain to me how the hell you would ensure that all buses that went into Newcastle and Leicester, say, passed by those train stations without causing major MAJOR building work for many MANY years and actually make it a disadvantage for a lot of travellers who then find themselves going out of their way when going into town for a day out.
And I would love to see how every bus that goes to Margate town centre would get up to the train station, its hard enough with the rail replacements
I just cant believe you think this is something that should happen JUST BECAUSE it may happen in a few European countries/Towns/Cities