Our new ticketing site is now live! Using either this or the original site (both powered by TrainSplit) helps support the running of the forum with every ticket purchase! Find out more and ask any questions/give us feedback in this thread!
Having seen the 319/769 conversion it set me wandering if EMUs such as VEP, CIG, CEP, EPB, etc on heritage lines could be converted the same way, it would be great to see these trains once again running on their own power and it would make EMU preservation more viable in the future especially with all the much loved and familiar EMUs that have been scheduled for withdrawal.
Having seen the 319/769 conversion it set me wandering if EMUs such as VEP, CIG, CEP, EPB, etc on heritage lines could be converted the same way, it would be great to see these trains once again running on their own power and it would make EMU preservation more viable in the future especially with all the much loved and familiar EMUs that have been scheduled for withdrawal.
It would also completely compromise their originality. The best, indeed only viable way for the old Southern EMUs to work on the heritage network is either being propelled by a 33, 73 or an MLV (which there are a couple about). Anything else would be costly and difficult.
Add in EMUs aren't really that attractive to the market the heritage sector want i.e. the general public. Yes, it may appeal to some of the enthusiast fraternity, but the enthusiast fraternity are notoriously short-arm, long pocket. I recall some years ago speaking to a member of staff at one of the heritage railways and he made the point the railway made a huge amount of money on Thomas weekends, Santa specials etc and virtually nothing on gala weekends. Until the enthusiast fraternity "put their money where their mouth is", they can't really complain that their pet projects aren't near the top of the heritage sector's priorities.
Having seen the 319/769 conversion it set me wandering if EMUs such as VEP, CIG, CEP, EPB, etc on heritage lines could be converted the same way, it would be great to see these trains once again running on their own power and it would make EMU preservation more viable in the future especially with all the much loved and familiar EMUs that have been scheduled for withdrawal.
Highly unlikely as strength is in chassis not a monocoque body so will be structural members underneath? Without looking at a photo not sure if they're are any which impede putting an underslung engine on unit.
I think their originality has already been compromised in most cases through refurbishment and mods over the years.
A not-entirely serious suggestion - space in the guard's vans? Depends on the additional weight perhaps. They used to have load limits painted on beside the van, only around a ton or two from memory.
But for preserved use (max 25mph), you wouldn't really need as much power as the 319s. And the VEP and EPB conveniently have guard's vans in their motor coaches, saving the need to string the electricity from coach to coach.
Or is there space in the guard's vans for an array of batteries from defunct Teslas?
But it would be a bit of a vanity project really, as ordinary DMUs would fill the niche for non-steam working on preserved lines.
I believe that the ex-Isle of Wight 1938 tube stock unit being preserved on the Epping and Ongar Railway is going to be fitted with traction batteries in one of its two coaches.
I think their originality has already been compromised in most cases through refurbishment and mods over the years.
A not-entirely serious suggestion - space in the guard's vans? Depends on the additional weight perhaps. They used to have load limits painted on beside the van, only around a ton or two from memory.
But for preserved use (max 25mph), you wouldn't really need as much power as the 319s. And the VEP and EPB conveniently have guard's vans in their motor coaches, saving the need to string the electricity from coach to coach.
Or is there space in the guard's vans for an array of batteries from defunct Teslas?
But it would be a bit of a vanity project really, as ordinary DMUs would fill the niche for non-steam working on preserved lines.
Ironically the best chance of preserving an EMU is now probably a 319 to 769 conversion as it is now self powered. Rolling forward 35 years, a 755 would be nice….
That's probably a simpler and more pragmatic solution for most heritage lines and/or stock owners. Less damage to the original unit, too, keeping it more original.
Completely agree. My wife was very unimpressed by the Thumper on the Dartmoor Railway a few years ago. Ok, I know it’s diesel but she said it reminded her of the grotty BR/NSE slam door stock she used to get to and from school
Completely agree. My wife was very unimpressed by the Thumper on the Dartmoor Railway a few years ago. Ok, I know it’s diesel but she said it reminded her of the grotty BR/NSE slam door stock she used to get to and from school
So i saw this thread earlier and thought i'd go into as detailed response as i can
Curently at the moment, Emus on preserved lines are mainly hauled opperation. Examples are listed below
2EPB that was East Kent was Hauled by a MLV (since moved from the EKR, is part ofthe EPB Preservation Group 5759) - https://www.epbpg.co.uk/
4CEP at Eden Valley is hauled by a MLV (they have CEP 2311 and 2315, both have been hauled by the MLV but more recently 2311)
3CEP at Chinnor is hauled by a 08 in the past - currently under restoration (1198 lymington flyer) - https://www.facebook.com/EMUPreservationSociety
3CIG at Spa Valley is usually hauled by class 33 or 73 they have one site (1497) - https://www.facebook.com/1497-Freshwater-Preservation-Group-2289503527801120/
4vep at East Kent railway (1 coach 3545) is usually connected to Mk2 and diesel haulage
4cor at East Kent Railway (1 coach at present from 3135 but curretly 3142) is diesel haulage - https://www.southernelectric.org.uk/
Dartmoor valley has two CEP coaches which have been hauled and mentioned else where up for sale
Current projects
Brighton Belle - being retractioned/motored/bogies to work on the mainline (3rd rail) - http://brightonbelle.com/
400 series batteries included project - involves vechile 62364 being converted to have batteries. End coaches TBC - http://www.400series.co.uk/
London Transport Traction group project 483 - conversion to a Battery Electric Multiple Unit involving unit 483006 and 483008 - http://www.lttractiongroup.co.uk/project-483.html#/
As for the 4SUB 4732 and Class 503 group. As part of our objectives it is planned to installation of bi-mode technology to make the units propelled. However as recently mention 4SUB 4732 has been offered a permant home at the one one collection. (https://www.hett.org.uk/)
For the SERA, the tyneside unit (once restored) will probably be a hauled opperation. (http://www.emus.co.uk/who.htm)
Drifting a bit OT, modern battery technology is moving on in leaps and bounds. Once electric cars, trucks etc become commonplace, how difficult would it be to provide enough energy to move a preserved EMU along a heritage line using a battery pack in the near future? I suspect it would be easier for a DC unit and would require some interesting high power modifications, but given the energy density available perhaps a handful of movements a day would be feasible?
Give it a few years and people will get misty eyed and the glasses turns rosy, even the rear engined Skoda Estelle is now a classic collectable in spite of being a butt of jokes.
Steam locos when it was everyday was seen as dirty, smelly, oily and a throwback, when it was gone people starts to get nostalgic and so it is, nostalgia is a big industry in this country....
It would also completely compromise their originality. The best, indeed only viable way for the old Southern EMUs to work on the heritage network is either being propelled by a 33, 73 or an MLV (which there are a couple about). Anything else would be costly and difficult.
Add in EMUs aren't really that attractive to the market the heritage sector want i.e. the general public. Yes, it may appeal to some of the enthusiast fraternity, but the enthusiast fraternity are notoriously short-arm, long pocket. I recall some years ago speaking to a member of staff at one of the heritage railways and he made the point the railway made a huge amount of money on Thomas weekends, Santa specials etc and virtually nothing on gala weekends. Until the enthusiast fraternity "put their money where their mouth is", they can't really complain that their pet projects aren't near the top of the heritage sector's priorities.
I would have thought the Enthusiast fraternity would soak up at least two Thomas Weekends worth of booze on the average gala weekend, from what I've seen.
The tech exists today to add some used car batteries to a DC unit, from old Southern up to the class 319.
Something as simple as some old Nissan Leaf 24 kW battery packs would do, they are cheap and the work could be done by one of the growing number of classic car conversion companies. Voltage is just a matter of battery wiring, casing is a DIY job, wiring up, systems & the control panel are specialist but available used equipment. You need a lot less battery than you might think to move a train at 25 mph.
2311 has, as far as I am aware, never been used in passenger operation at the Eden Valley Railway. 2315 is the one used in passenger service, hauled/propelled by a pair of MLVs (S68003 and S68005) on battery power.
The only time I recall 2311 moving beyond the Warcop Station area was during the filming of a BBC TV programme called Paradox in 2009, when the two units formed an 8-CEP, moved around as required by the MLVs.
The Pacers were offered for free / minimal cost and we're ready to go.
They have big windows which are good for scenic routes.
Mechanically they are simple and robust and easy to operate - they are ideal for off-peak, low season services - that's not true of EMUs which need something else to power them.
== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: ==
I would have thought the Enthusiast fraternity would soak up at least two Thomas Weekends worth of booze on the average gala weekend, from what I've seen.
Problem is slot of said booze isn't bought on the railway. Add in the costs of bringing "guest" locos and things like that.
Thomas weekends are (notwithstanding any licensing costs) cheap and simple to run, will usually be done with stock the railway already has, chances are the majority of food & drink is bought on site and then there will be a visit to the shop as well.
Problem is slot of said booze isn't bought on the railway. Add in the costs of bringing "guest" locos and things like that.
Thomas weekends are (notwithstanding any licensing costs) cheap and simple to run, will usually be done with stock the railway already has, chances are the majority of food & drink is bought on site and then there will be a visit to the shop as well.
Which are single glazed and covered in condensation whenever I used them, particularly at the sort of “off peak” times they’ll be used. You’ve also rather missed the original point that punters at preserved lines want a “proper train” rather than a bus on rails, regardless of how big the windows may be.
I seem to remember reading that the lease costs of a Pacer were very much less than a Class 150. Their economy probably saved a number of branch lines from closing.
The best proposition for a battery operated EMU is the lightweight class 503. All up its three cars weigh only 77tons and its motor ratings are only 135kW. There's plenty of room underneath the trailers and the interiors are pleasant. It would fill the gap for a heritage line early/late in the day and season, when the traffic doesn't justify steam. If the heritage movement gave it a fraction of the support given to conjectural steam realisations and new bridges....
I would have thought the Enthusiast fraternity would soak up at least two Thomas Weekends worth of booze on the average gala weekend, from what I've seen.
Unfortunately the cans of Stella are largely bought in from the local tescos along with the £3 value meal, ready for the argument with the ticket office about the priv discounts available. The enthusiasts also dont buy £25ks worth of toys flags and whistles per weekend.
Unfortunately the cans of Stella are largely bought in from the local tescos along with the £3 value meal, ready for the argument with the ticket office about the priv discounts available. The enthusiasts also dont buy £25ks worth of toys flags and whistles per weekend.
Unfortunately the cans of Stella are largely bought in from the local tescos along with the £3 value meal, ready for the argument with the ticket office about the priv discounts available. The enthusiasts also dont buy £25ks worth of toys flags and whistles per weekend.
I seem to remember reading that the lease costs of a Pacer were very much less than a Class 150. Their economy probably saved a number of branch lines from closing.
The best proposition for a battery operated EMU is the lightweight class 503. All up its three cars weigh only 77tons and its motor ratings are only 135kW. There's plenty of room underneath the trailers and the interiors are pleasant. It would fill the gap for a heritage line early/late in the day and season, when the traffic doesn't justify steam. If the heritage movement gave it a fraction of the support given to conjectural steam realisations and new bridges....
Counting against that is there is only one survivor and to say it's in a poor state is perhaps a bit of an understatement. It's now homed in the LSL facility at Margate.
I can see the reasons why so many railways have gone wild for Pacers. I understand the arguments - the cost, the big windows etc. But I actually do think they've massively overestimated the appeal of them in the longer term.
For example, I can fully see why the Wensleydale Railway would want one or two pacers at the moment. They offer a cheap, readily available solution to a problem and it's sensible choice. Not sure about the huge fleet they seem to be building up unless they're planning on running a 2 train service made up of 2 or 3 pacers per train regularly tho...
They've already got a fairly decent Heritage DMU fleet, albeit some need renovations right now, plus a set of Mk2s that are undergoing a refurb and a good diesel fleet. In the longer term their stated aim is to introduce a regular steam service with resident locos, so then their main seasonal services will be steam hauled MK1s; for the rest of the services (mornings, evenings, off peak) I'm not sure where pacers fit in - they have no appeal for any visitor, enthusiast or otherwise, over a 101/108/122 or a diesel-hauled set of MK2s - they are noisy and uncomfortable without the appeal of being a 1950s unit or the advantage of offering a forward view.
I think ultimately these pacers will see a fair bit of use over the next 2 - 5 years and then half of them will end up on that farm/graveyard in Sellindge as 'long term restoration' projects that never get finished.
The mainline railway is a public transport system, not a glorified museum. Running old EMUs which don't meet current safety standards on a busy commuter network is a complete non starter. Much as you may not like it, the network is there first and foremost for the general public, not the whims of a small band of enthusiasts.
== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: ==
I can see the reasons why so many railways have gone wild for Pacers. I understand the arguments - the cost, the big windows etc. But I actually do think they've massively overestimated the appeal of them in the longer term.
For example, I can fully see why the Wensleydale Railway would want one or two pacers at the moment. They offer a cheap, readily available solution to a problem and it's sensible choice. Not sure about the huge fleet they seem to be building up unless they're planning on running a 2 train service made up of 2 or 3 pacers per train regularly tho...
They've already got a fairly decent Heritage DMU fleet, albeit some need renovations right now, plus a set of Mk2s that are undergoing a refurb and a good diesel fleet. In the longer term their stated aim is to introduce a regular steam service with resident locos, so then their main seasonal services will be steam hauled MK1s; for the rest of the services (mornings, evenings, off peak) I'm not sure a pacer has any appeal for any visitor over a 101/108/122 or a diesel-hauled set of MK2s - they are noisy and uncomfortable without the appeal of being a 1950s unit or the advantage of offering a forward view.
I think ultimately these pacers will see a fair bit of use over the next 2 - 5 years and then half of them will end up on that farm/graveyard in Sellindge as 'long term restoration' projects that never get finished.
Absolutely agree about the longer term appeal of the Pacers. But a similar thing happened with many of the early withdrawn 1st gen DMU classes - bought up to run services on the nascent heritage railway scene, but then as time went on they fell by the wayside and ended up being scrapped e.g.
Class 100 - 6 cars entered preservation only 3 now survive
Class 103 - 6 cars entered preservation only 3 now survive
Even some of the later classes have seen their numbers culled in preservation
Class 101 - 10 cars scrapped in preservation
Class 115 - 3 cars scrapped in preservation
Class 116 - 6 cars scrapped in preservation
Class 117 - 11 cars scrapped in preservation
Class 121 - 2 cars scrapped in preservation
Class 141 - 2 units (4 cars) scrapped in preservation
Counting against that is there is only one survivor and to say it's in a poor state is perhaps a bit of an understatement. It's now homed in the LSL facility at Margate.
True but an EMU mainly only needs C&W work - sheet metal, carpentry and upholstery, not boiler making, castings, large machining etc. The 502 was far worse than the 503 and has in parts a new body, frames (ribs) and all.
The mainline railway is a public transport system, not a glorified museum. Running old EMUs which don't meet current safety standards on a busy commuter network is a complete non starter. Much as you may not like it, the network is there first and foremost for the general public, not the whims of a small band of enthusiasts.
== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: ==
Absolutely agree about the longer term appeal of the Pacers. But a similar thing happened with many of the early withdrawn 1st gen DMU classes - bought up to run services on the nascent heritage railway scene, but then as time went on they fell by the wayside and ended up being scrapped e.g.
Class 100 - 6 cars entered preservation only 3 now survive
Class 103 - 6 cars entered preservation only 3 now survive
Even some of the later classes have seen their numbers culled in preservation
Class 101 - 10 cars scrapped in preservation
Class 115 - 3 cars scrapped in preservation
Class 116 - 6 cars scrapped in preservation
Class 117 - 11 cars scrapped in preservation
Class 121 - 2 cars scrapped in preservation
Class 141 - 2 units (4 cars) scrapped in preservation
Charters tend to run on quieter lines, the majority of steam ones run with a diesel attached in order that they can be rescued in the event of a failure and not cause chaos.
If there was such a demand for EMU railtours, I'm fairly sure somebody would have engineered a way to run them by now, the fact there hasn't been suggests not. And the only imminent one will be the 5BEL pullman, which won't particularly be targeting the enthusiast fraternity.
Charters tend to run on quieter lines, the majority of steam ones run with a diesel attached in order that they can be rescued in the event of a failure and not cause chaos.
If there was such a demand for EMU railtours, I'm fairly sure somebody would have engineered a way to run them by now, the fact there hasn't been suggests not. And the only imminent one will be the 5BEL pullman, which won't particularly be targeting the enthusiast fraternity.
We are aware of an issue with emails from the Forum to Microsoft-based email accounts (hotmail/outlook/live.com email addresses). This is being looked into currently, thanks for your patience meanwhile.
