Preservation or Restoration?

[Logan Carroll]

Do you think it’s better for trains to be kept as they were on the day they were withdrawn (Class 303 at Bo’ness) or to be restored to how they looked at the height of their career? (The unrefurbished class 303 that was repainted into its original livery and ran on specials before being withdrawn due to asbestos).

I personally prefer for trains to be left as is as it provides the most accurate look into the past.

 

[hexagon789]

Do you think it’s better for trains to be kept as they were on the day they were withdrawn (Class 303 at Bo’ness) or to be restored to how they looked at the height of their career? (The unrefurbished class 303 that was repainted into its original livery and ran on specials before being withdrawn due to asbestos).

I personally prefer for trains to be left as is as it provides the most accurate look into the past.

I think it depends, if you have more than one example you may as well try to restore one to original condition and/or another livery.

It becomes a much more difficult question when there is only one such as with the Bo'ness 303 or indeed their 126 which is the opposite to the 303 - back in original condition.

 

[Logan Carroll]

I think it depends, if you have more than one example you may as well try to restore one to original condition and/or another livery.

It becomes a much more difficult question when there is only one such as with the Bo'ness 303 or indeed their 126 which is the opposite to the 303 - back in original condition.

IIRC the 126s weren’t on the G&SW until later in their careers?

Why restore it to a state that has no meaning to scotland?

 

[pdeaves]

Do you think it’s better for trains to be kept as they were on the day they were withdrawn (Class 303 at Bo’ness) or to be restored to how they looked at the height of their career? (The unrefurbished class 303 that was repainted into its original livery and ran on specials before being withdrawn due to asbestos).

I personally prefer for trains to be left as is as it provides the most accurate look into the past.

For a lot of stuff, keeping it 'as withdrawn' means it will never work. As a 'look into the past', it is only a look into the most recent past. Once you get to the point of having to repaint to prevent further deterioration, replace rotten woodwork to stop it all collapsing, etc., you might as well decide what other livery to use or what era look you want. The paint/part is no longer original anyway.

 

[Richard Scott]

I do like nondescript items of stock. A bog standard non-celebrity work stained blue 31, 37, 45 or 47 look the business, just how I remember them!

 

[sprinterguy]

My preference is for locos or stock to be restored to original condition or to a condition representative of their heyday. Preserved items should, in my opinion, give some insight into the time period they originate from.

Why restore it to a state that has no meaning to scotland?

The 126s spent their whole working lives in Scotland - Except for the first six sets that spent their first three years on the Western region

 

[Logan Carroll]

The 126s spent their whole working lives in Scotland - Except for the first six sets that spent their first three years on the Western region

Thanks. i have no idea what i got this confused with (if anything).

 

[Journeyman]

It's an interesting question. I think it depends on how much stuff has been modified over the course of its life. The CEP/BEP EMUs are an example - many cars have survived into preservation, obviously in their extensively refurbished condition, but the existence of so many has allowed one set to be "defurbished" back to something resembling original condition, something that hasn't existed for nigh on 40 years.

As far as the 303 is concerned, I'd suggest leaving it as is, and restoring it into SPT orange and black - that's now sufficiently historic to be interesting. There's 2 surviving class 311 vehicles under restoration that can represent the unrefurbished style.

 

[Titfield]

Perhaps the question is what will attract paying customers the most?

 

[O L Leigh]

There's a third way. Conservation.

There's been quite a bit of work done in aviation with various aircraft types being conserved, such as the Vought F4U Corsair and the Grumman F4F Wildcat at the Fleet Air Arm Museum. Conservation preserves them in their original (or as withdrawn) state but does not permit them to deteriorate further and has allowed them to be researched on an almost forensic level which has helped to uncover some hitherto unknown and unrecorded informatio. However, this is something that appears not to have been taken up by railway preservationists, probably for a number of reasons. Trains tend to have much longer careers and will be repainted and refurbished often before being declared life-expired, and their various incarnations are usually well-documented. Conservation also tends to require quite a bit of money on things like environmental control and other treatments to prevent material from deteriorating.

 

[Titfield]

Conservation seems to spell the end of any active use of the asset whereas most railway preservationist I would argue wish to see the asset being operated.

 

[O L Leigh]

Perhaps so. But not all surviving rail vehicles are lucky enough to be in an operational state or have that potential. For those, conservation could be an option.

 

[Titfield]

Yes agreed but many owners would be reluctant to give up on their dream of making it operational. You only have to see the number of rail vehicles in sidings sheeted over for years on end deteriorating whilst their owner harbours dreams of restoring it one day.

 

[O L Leigh]

At the risk of going off topic and into a bit of a rant, this is something that I find intensely frustrating. Owners such as this are not preserving these vehicles, but rather they are presiding over their slow decay while they entertain unrealistic dreams that probably will never be fulfilled. As such, these vehicles are at risk of being lost forever.

 

[Titfield]

Absolutely but it seems to be a mind set across all preservation: cars, buses, lorries, motorbikes, locos, carriages ..........

 

[hexagon789]

IIRC the 126s weren’t on the G&SW until later in their careers?

Why restore it to a state that has no meaning to scotland?

Ayrshire normally, though when nominally withdrawn at least one set appeared vice a 107 on the Shotts line and ran through to Edinburgh.

The 126s spent their whole working lives in Scotland - Except for the first six sets that spent their first three years on the Western region

Those technically never made it to be called 126s, only the Ayrshire cars did.

As far as the 303 is concerned, I'd suggest leaving it as is, and restoring it into SPT orange and black - that's now sufficiently historic to be interesting. There's 2 surviving class 311 vehicles under restoration that can represent the unrefurbished style.

I'd argue in favour of leaving it as the two liveries it presently carries.

 

[sprinterguy]

Thanks. i have no idea what i got this confused with (if anything).

I did have to pause for thought to consider it myself, to be fair: Then realised I was thinking about the similar Swindon 123s that were relocated to Yorkshire to join their class 124 brethren.

Those technically never made it to be called 126s, only the Ayrshire cars did.

Aye, I suppose the Edinburgh - Glasgow units were withdrawn pre-TOPS. Still identical units though to all intents and purposes.

 

[O L Leigh]

Absolutely but it seems to be a mind set across all preservation: cars, buses, lorries, motorbikes, locos, carriages ..........

Perhaps so.

But it remains, as I mentioned in my first post, a third way, and one that I feel that the preservationist movement of all stripes perhaps ought to catch up with. If nothing else, storage of future restoration candidates in a controlled environment where their rate of decay can be slowed has to be better than just sticking them in a siding and throwing tarps over them.

 

[Journeyman]

Aye, I suppose the Edinburgh - Glasgow units were withdrawn pre-TOPS. Still identical units though to all intents and purposes.

Almost - the brake vans were behind the cabs on the E&G sets, rather than at the non-cab end like on the Ayrshire vehicles.

 

[Ashley Hill]

I think it's really down to how its owner remembers the loco,I don't remember BR green so if I owned a loco it would be blue. Also the railway it's based on might have a say in that they might prefer it green to keep with their image.
There's scope for anything really. If you owned a 31 and someone appeared with a Mirrlees engine would you jump to fit it? Would you paint a King in InterCity red stripe? There's been several examples (diesel) of one-off what-if liveries, eg in 20 years time would you expect to see 55016 in purple again.
I remember reading that when the 71 was restored to traffic the NRM kept the cabling that had burnt out when withdrawn so it could eventually be put back on to restore it to original as withdrawn condition.

 

[lttgroup]

This is a question which our organisation has been considering quite a bit over the past few months.

To give a bit of background, the LTTG (London Transport Traction Group) was a group I originally set up in May on the basis that it appeared no organisation was going to be preserving one of the Class 483 (ex-1938 Tube Stock) trains currently running on the Isle of Wight, at least not in its entirety.

Therefore, the original plan was to approach the IoWSR and retain it in pretty much its current condition to reflect its use on the Isle of Wight and as potentially the only example of an IoW EMU to be preserved in IoW condition. We weren't thinking of long-term conservation however as our aim from the outset has been to run the unit. Upon approaching the IoWSR, however, we were told that they would be preserving one themselves, in Island condition and primarily as an exhibit in their Train Story museum at Havenstreet with an eye on being able to run in the future. To have one of these preserved on the Island in anything other than Island condition would be nonsensical. The unit that the IoWSR are getting is 483007 (recently named Jess Harper), which has just been overhauled and as such is in near-pristine condition and as such is, and will continue, to be a perfect representative of the fleet in preservation.

We then approached the Epping Ongar Railway. As the 483s are, at their core, still 1938 Tube Stock they are also appropriate for the EOR with its history as part of the London Underground from 1948 to 1994. For a period in the late-1950s, a 1938 stock set ran on the branch alongside two 1935 stock sets. With the IoWSR preserving one of the units in pristine Island Line condition, and with the EOR having no relationship with Island Line we feel that it's most appropriate for our unit to at least roughly represent a unit in London Transport condition. Although we don't plan to make any substantial changes to 483006 to achieve this, we are planning to do such things as a repaint into 1950s LT livery, re-trim the seats in period LT moquette and make minor cosmetic adjustments to reflect this - Nothing which couldn't be un-done, however. The most substantial difference is that as we intend to run the unit using its traction motors we will also need to make provision for batteries.

I think my point is that were our unit to end up being the sole surviving example of a Class 483, we would be preserving it in its current condition and making as few changes as possible to enable it to run. As it stands, we are taking it somewhere where it has a different story to tell and where that condition would be of little relevance when telling that story. 483007 will be telling the story of Island Electrics in the most appropriate environment possible, and as the unit in the best condition it is the best representative for this role.

 

[Titfield]

Perhaps so.

But it remains, as I mentioned in my first post, a third way, and one that I feel that the preservationist movement of all stripes perhaps ought to catch up with. If nothing else, storage of future restoration candidates in a controlled environment where their rate of decay can be slowed has to be better than just sticking them in a siding and throwing tarps over them.

If they had the money for a controlled environment, they would be spending it on restoring the vehicle in the first place.

One of the big problems with the restoration / conservation of anything larger than a car is the availability and cost of a safe secure weather proof environment in which to store and work on the vehicle.

In the bus preservation world one of the saddest developments has been the eventual loss of preserved vehicles either because of loss of storage or because the time has come to re-restore and the funds / willingness / facilities havent been there.

 

[BigB]

If they had the money for a controlled environment, they would be spending it on restoring the vehicle in the first place.

One of the big problems with the restoration / conservation of anything larger than a car is the availability and cost of a safe secure weather proof environment in which to store and work on the vehicle.

In the bus preservation world one of the saddest developments has been the eventual loss of preserved vehicles either because of loss of storage or because the time has come to re-restore and the funds / willingness / facilities havent been there.

I believe the main issue to be lack of a combination of both...
Storing carriages and locos under cover takes a lot of space which mounts up quickly. At Bo'ness for example the "reserve" carriage building alone - not items in the museum or the railtour stock - holds 15 carriages and many items are wooden bodies carriages awaiting restoration but it's a long way off. We have revenue earning stock that needs an undercover home whilst work is ongoing but this is not available as carriages that may be restored some time never take valuable space. So you either store items awaiting restoration to preserve them, or you leave restored items outside where they deteriorate to the point where they may no longer be viable.
It's a difficult balance and one that needs to be weighed up for any railway taking on new items or when looking at the list of items they want to restore. Where do you keep them to protect them once done?
Most railways have an engine shed, but few have decent carriage sheds or stations that have canopies to stable in during winter months (or summer to protect paintwork).
A steam shed after the last train has run and everything is back inside is a wonderful place, but carriage sheds (indeed any big sheds) are an important feature that needs to be planned for on any railway to protect your investments, as these are the vehicles that the public go on, and they pay the bills at the end of the day.

 

[Journeyman]

I think my point is that were our unit to end up being the sole surviving example of a Class 483, we would be preserving it in its current condition and making as few changes as possible to enable it to run. As it stands, we are taking it somewhere where it has a different story to tell and where that condition would be of little relevance when telling that story. 483007 will be telling the story of Island Electrics in the most appropriate environment possible, and as the unit in the best condition it is the best representative for this role.

Can't fault your rationale there at all. You're giving the EOR a fantastic opportunity to add something to its collection that represents a big part of its history, so a restoration in closer to LT condition seems entirely appropriate. Like you say, you'd have to think twice if it looked like all the other units were going for scrap, but this is a chance to provide something different.

Personally, I'd like to see one of the sets on the island painted in NSE livery. Less said about the dinosaurs, the better...

If you restore armrests, retrim the seats in green/red, and paint the partitions and insides of the doors green, you're a long way towards recreating the classic 38 Stock ambience. Only the fluorescent lights will be slightly out of place. What about restoring the slatted wooden floor too?

 

[lttgroup]

Can't fault your rationale there at all. You're giving the EOR a fantastic opportunity to add something to its collection that represents a big part of its history, so a restoration in closer to LT condition seems entirely appropriate. Like you say, you'd have to think twice if it looked like all the other units were going for scrap, but this is a chance to provide something different.

Personally, I'd like to see one of the sets on the island painted in NSE livery. Less said about the dinosaurs, the better...

If you restore armrests, retrim the seats in green/red, and paint the partitions and insides of the doors green, you're a long way towards recreating the classic 38 Stock ambience. Only the fluorescent lights will be slightly out of place. What about restoring the slatted wooden floor too?

Regarding NSE livery, this is something we are considering for 2029-30 to celebrate various 40th anniversaries and it's one reason we don't want to make irreversible changes. We can't see the other preserved examples going into this livery anytime soon and although it's contrary to my earlier point we feel that those anniversaries are worth celebrating and interpreting.*

As for your latter point armrests may take longer but most of what you suggest is planned, for the reason you give. The floor we are not yet sure about the practicality of and the lighting is likely to remain as-is for the foreseeable future.

*For reference the important anniversaries for our unit are;
2026: 40 Years since the creation of NSE.
2028: 90 years of the '38 tube stock.
2029: 40 years since the first 483 arrived on the Island and the Island Line brand created.
2030: 40 years since our unit arrived in Ryde, 90 years since our unit was delivered to LT.
We had considered 2026-2030 too.

 

[zwk500]

Perhaps so.

But it remains, as I mentioned in my first post, a third way, and one that I feel that the preservationist movement of all stripes perhaps ought to catch up with. If nothing else, storage of future restoration candidates in a controlled environment where their rate of decay can be slowed has to be better than just sticking them in a siding and throwing tarps over them.

I believe conservation tends to be chosen when a vehicle has been in a very damaging environment for a very long time and any subsequent change to that environment would have a greatly accelerated rate of deterioration. The problem is most acute with aircraft & shipwrecks that have been underwater for a long period, such as the Mary Rose or the numerous Battle of Britain planes that have been recovered from the Channel, but it's also been seen when planes buried in a desert or jungle have been conserved. Conservation tends to be an alternative to just letting it rot, rather than an alternative to restoration/preservation (cosmetic or operational). Trains tend not to have been in such environments and so the need for conservation is much reduced.
There's also the factor that effectively, by conserving the item, you are locking it into a single state that cannot be changed. This state is usually the state it was found in, not how it served. As lttgroup has said, rail vehicles often have had several lives and the ability to tell each of these stories at different times as appropriate is a goal of many preservation and restoration efforts. Although I understand the Bluebell is in the fortunate position to have multiple Standard 4MT tanks and intends to leave one of them in ex-scrapyard condition in the engine shed, in a manner akin to conservation.

 

[Titfield]

It has always seemed difficult to raise funds for the more unglamorous / mundane parts of a heritage railway and carriage sheds are often low down the list despite the fact that arguably they pay for themselves in terms of less maintenance of carriages / greater time between repaints etc etc.

Perhaps some railways need to take a long hard look at their assets and reduce the collection to a manageable size. Yes this may seem unpalatable but surely makes sense in the long run. There arent the time, funds etc to restore and maintain everything.

 

[xotGD]

Clearly if a railway has some rare ancient coaching stock then it is being preserved. However, is that the case for a set of Mark 1s, or should they just be regarded as an operational asset for the railway?

 

[GlitterUnicorn]

This could reopen the fun little argument of Preserved Railways - Museum or large-scale trainset?

Every time you replace a part on a train, you're removing a historical artefact, every time you repair it you're scarring the original parts with modern welds and rivets. The repair methods used aren't authentic and neither are the parts and equipment. Historically it's the equivalent of stripping out a historic building and patching it up with breezeblocks and polyfilla.

How many times have original works built boilers or large original parts been stripped out and replaced by modern replacements? The original being either dumped behind a shed to rust away or eventually scrapped? There has to be an acknowledgement that by continuing to make them run, preserved railways are degrading historical artefacts.

The truth is that Railway preservationists invariably want to play with their toys. Far too many historic and noteworthy items are allowed to fall into disrepair to the point that they're unsalvageable because they're either inoperable or not suitable for preserved passenger use.

There's nothing necessarily wrong with that, but there needs to be a recognition that Preservation, Conservation and wanting to run a full size train set are all very different things!

 

[bramling]

Do you think it’s better for trains to be kept as they were on the day they were withdrawn (Class 303 at Bo’ness) or to be restored to how they looked at the height of their career? (The unrefurbished class 303 that was repainted into its original livery and ran on specials before being withdrawn due to asbestos).

I personally prefer for trains to be left as is as it provides the most accurate look into the past.

The optimum situation is an example of both for each class. Naturally that’s not always going to be possible.