Preservation of a 507 class train from Merseyrail

[shakey1961]

Hi. I'm not sure which section this needs to be posted in, so please move it to a more appropriate one.

Was wondering if Merseyrail had plans to donate one of the old 507 units to a rail preservation society in the area? Maybe 507001 the first one that was delivered?

I know there's a previous M train somewhere in Burscough.

 

[A0]

Hi. I'm not sure which section this needs to be posted in, so please move it to a more appropriate one.

Was wondering if Merseyrail had plans to donate one of the old 507 units to a rail preservation society in the area? Maybe 507001 the first one that was delivered?

I know there's a previous M train somewhere in Burscough.

One of the problems with EMUs in preservation is what to do with them - they can't be run on the heritage lines under their own power and they're not ideal as loco hauled stock either.

The ex Merseyside NRM 502 is in a pretty poor state now though is now stored under cover, the class 306 has similarly got into a poor state.

The NRM has, I believe, put a claim on a 313 as the first of the PEP designs, but is unlikely to want any more.

Unless one of the heritage railways *really* wanted one, I can't see any of these making it into preservation.

 

[Goldie]

I'd give my right arm to see the surviving 502, 503 and a preserved class 507 running occasional services on Merseyrail, along with having a permanant and secure home on the network. Sounds far fetched, I know - but have a look at the epic awesomeness of what the New York Transit Museum manage to achieve with their Nostalgia Rides on the almost incomprehensibly busy New York subway system before you decide that it's impossible: https://www.nytransitmuseum.org/nostalgiarides/

Both the 502 and 503 have had their dark days, but they are both now under cover and in the case of the 502, in the care of a group who are smashing through the restoration at an impressive pace: http://www.class502.org.uk/news-blog/. Merseyrail is a uniquely atmospheric (and historically very important) system, and it would be fantastic to have the opportunity to appreciate it from appropriate rolling stock. Let's hope that the imminent retirement of the 507s pushes enough nostalgia buttons at the Merseyside Transport Trust or the MTPS to secure the survival of one.

Friends of the 503 page is here for completeness: https://www.facebook.com/503unit/

 

[Mollman]

Does the Birkenhead Tramway have a museum it can put a driving car (in not full set) in?

 

[Bertie the bus]

Neither Merseyrail nor Merseytravel own the 507s or 508s so won’t be donating them. Angel own them and will no doubt be open to offers as they will be only worth scrap value, though I’m sure someone has a cunning plan to mainline register a fleet of Class 14 Teddy Bears to haul them on branch lines.

 

[E759]

Neither Merseyrail nor Merseytravel own the 507s or 508s so won’t be donating them. Angel own them and will no doubt be open to offers as they will be only worth scrap value, though I’m sure someone has a cunning plan to mainline register a fleet of Class 14 Teddy Bears to haul them on branch lines.

Spa Valley have a 4-CIG and a Teddy Bear. Rode the CIG at the Summer Diesel Gala hauled by a 73.

 

[lyndhurst25]

MerseyRail recently put out an online survey asking what things they could do for rail enthusiasts. My suggestion was repainting 507001 into its original livery.

Privately preserved EMUs in the UK have been a bit of a failure. However, in BR days we had a Class 405, Class 306 and Class 503 running on the mainline as depot "pets". What are the chances of 507001 being kept on at Kirkdale or Birkenhead depots when the fleet is replaced? I think that would be the only chance if saving it in running condition.They could use it for railtours, private hire and for the Grand National. A bar could even be installed to make a kind of MV Royal Iris of the railway.

 

[pdeaves]

who are smashing through the restoration

Perhaps an unfortunate choice of words

 

[Journeyman]

MerseyRail recently put out an online survey asking what things they could do for rail enthusiasts. My suggestion was repainting 507001 into its original livery.

Privately preserved EMUs in the UK have been a bit of a failure. However, in BR days we had a Class 405, Class 306 and Class 503 running on the mainline as depot "pets". What are the chances of 507001 being kept on at Kirkdale or Birkenhead depots when the fleet is replaced? I think that would be the only chance if saving it in running condition.They could use it for railtours, private hire and for the Grand National. A bar could even be installed to make a kind of MV Royal Iris of the railway.

Once the new trains are introduced, will the old ones remain compatible with the infrastructure? I know they're planning platform alterations, but they'll be finished before the new trains are introduced, so shouldn't be a show-stopper.

 

[A0]

MerseyRail recently put out an online survey asking what things they could do for rail enthusiasts. My suggestion was repainting 507001 into its original livery.

It wouldn't look "right" though because the 507s have had their cab lights changed so look quite different to their delivered state - unlike the 313s where one has been repainted into Blue / Grey - albeit with the doors painted differently.

 

[DarloRich]

I'd give my right arm to see the surviving 502, 503 and a preserved class 507 running occasional services on Merseyrail, along with having a permanant and secure home on the network. Sounds far fetched, I know - but have a look at the epic awesomeness of what the New York Transit Museum manage to achieve with their Nostalgia Rides on the almost incomprehensibly busy New York subway system before you decide that it's impossible: https://www.nytransitmuseum.org/nostalgiarides/

Both the 502 and 503 have had their dark days, but they are both now under cover and in the case of the 502, in the care of a group who are smashing through the restoration at an impressive pace: http://www.class502.org.uk/news-blog/. Merseyrail is a uniquely atmospheric (and historically very important) system, and it would be fantastic to have the opportunity to appreciate it from appropriate rolling stock. Let's hope that the imminent retirement of the 507s pushes enough nostalgia buttons at the Merseyside Transport Trust or the MTPS to secure the survival of one.

Friends of the 503 page is here for completeness: https://www.facebook.com/503unit/

MerseyRail recently put out an online survey asking what things they could do for rail enthusiasts. My suggestion was repainting 507001 into its original livery.

Privately preserved EMUs in the UK have been a bit of a failure. However, in BR days we had a Class 405, Class 306 and Class 503 running on the mainline as depot "pets". What are the chances of 507001 being kept on at Kirkdale or Birkenhead depots when the fleet is replaced? I think that would be the only chance if saving it in running condition.They could use it for railtours, private hire and for the Grand National. A bar could even be installed to make a kind of MV Royal Iris of the railway.

I am sure it would be nice but it isnt going to happen. Best that will be done is one car preserved somewhere local. Anyway it is only an EMU. Hardly a proper train

 

[Journeyman]

I am sure it would be nice but it isnt going to happen. Best that will be done is one car preserved somewhere local. Anyway it is only an EMU. Hardly a proper train

That's the reason so few get preserved - they're not considered interesting enough. They have zero appeal to normals.

 

[DarloRich]

That's the reason so few get preserved - they're not considered interesting enough. They have zero appeal to normals.

There is little romance about them!

 

[Goldie]

Does the Birkenhead Tramway have a museum it can put a driving car (in not full set) in?

They've just finished a thorough looking redevelopment of their Taylor Street museum, but I would imagine that it was designed around the need to house and display their current (very fine) collection of local tramcars and doesn't include spare space: http://www.mtps.co.uk/.

There is the Pacific Road building (which used to house the tram collection before Taylor Street opened) which seems to be without a permanant use.

 

[M28361M]

Once the new trains are introduced, will the old ones remain compatible with the infrastructure? I know they're planning platform alterations, but they'll be finished before the new trains are introduced, so shouldn't be a show-stopper.

As I understand it, the alterations are to bring the platforms to a consistent height to allow the sliding step feature of the new trains to work correctly. The platforms will still be to a normal railway loading gauge - don't forget locations such as Chester, Bidston and Ellesmere Port, where Merseyrail trains share platforms with other TOCs. Of course, future modifications to signalling or safety requirements could eventually prevent any future use regardless of gauging issues.

Having been involved a bit with the Class 502 group and knowing some of the problems they had, I would say that if a group is going to preserve a 507, they should be making plans now, ready for when withdrawal happens in 2020. Just some of the things that need to be done: Find somewhere where you could keep three (for a complete unit) 20m long railway vehicles - it needs to be secure and ideally undercover, otherwise any conservation work you do is going to be rapidly undone by the weather. Then source a collection of spare parts, get the people with the know-how to work on the unit, and start doing some serious fundraising (just to move the train by road to its new home is going to be a few thousand quid).

The problem with preserving a 507 (or most other post-PEP electric units) is their limited use potential. You can't run them under their own power on a preserved line, and unlike Southern slammer EMUs you can't easily drag them with a loco due to incompatible couplings. On top of that, despite being 40 years old, they look "modern" to the average punter and don't really fit in with the atmosphere of most preserved lines. If the Electric Railway Museum in Coventry was still around, that would have been an ideal location.

I believe Angel Trains offered the redundant 508 stock to preserved railways almost for free, with the suggestion that the vehicles be used as a stores van or a static cafe/shop coach. They still had no takers.

 

[Bevan Price]

There is probably space to park a 507 in the mostly disused depot at Birkenhead Central, but public access to view it would be difficult, and someone would need to pay a lot to keep the building waterprrof and secure. Also not much chance for it to run anywhere - crew traction knowledge would eventually expire and no TOC is likely to pay for retention of traction knowledge on stock for which they have no use.

 

[jamesst]

There is probably space to park a 507 in the mostly disused depot at Birkenhead Central, but public access to view it would be difficult, and someone would need to pay a lot to keep the building waterprrof and secure. Also not much chance for it to run anywhere - crew traction knowledge would eventually expire and no TOC is likely to pay for retention of traction knowledge on stock for which they have no use.

You'd also have to pay to repair the roof and shed at Birkenhead Central, long disused it's in quite a dodgy state now

 

[yorksrob]

Depot pets should come back. They engender the 'exceptionalism' of the railway as an industry i.e. its importance to the smooth running of the Nation, and help to instill a sense of pride and history.

They also give engineers something different to get their teeth into, apprentices something to try their hands on etc.

 

[reddragon]

They'd make good garden sheds / greenhouses, separate offices to work from home, maybe a cafe at a Heritage railway as they are aluminium & won't rot away!
There are many other units I'd like to see retained running before these.

 

[A0]

They'd make good garden sheds / greenhouses, separate offices to work from home, maybe a cafe at a Heritage railway as they are aluminium & won't rot away!
There are many other units I'd like to see retained running before these.

Quite - in fact there are some historically significant units quietly rotting away at the moment - we've touched on the 306 and 502, but the 4DD where one of two surviving cars is hiding away in Northampton exposed to the elements should be much higher on the concern list.

One of the PEP EMUs has been earmarked for the National Collection AIUI, which means at least one will be safe, albeit a 313 - but the various PEP units weren't significantly different from each other.

 

[341o2]

Spa Valley have a 4-CIG and a Teddy Bear. Rode the CIG at the Summer Diesel Gala hauled by a 73.

Chinnor and PR have 3CEP 1198 Linda, Mid Norfolk 3CIG 1497 Freshwater

 

[pdeaves]

at least one will be safe, albeit a 313 - but the various PEP units weren't significantly different from each other.

A 313 is probably the best choice, what with it being able to demonstrate OLE and 3rd rail in one item.

 

[Steam loco]

I think one should be preserved to keep memories and paint it be blue and put original head lights back